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How come Sather always waits till the last minute

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Old
07-11-2014, 01:59 PM
  #1
free0717
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How come Sather always waits till the last minute

Whenever we have an RFA or a pending UFA Sather will always wait till the last minute to try to sign him. I just saw Dubinsky extended and I am thinking Are the Rangers trying to extend Marc Staals contract? Will the Long Term contracts for Zucc, Brass and Kreids wait till they are ready to walk into the Arbitration room?

We could have extended Brian Boyle earlier in the year.

Why does Sather always wait till the last minute when it comes to our own players but will break the bank for someone elses FA who never did a damn thing in a Ranger uniform?

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07-11-2014, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by free0717 View Post
Whenever we have an RFA or a pending UFA Sather will always wait till the last minute to try to sign him. I just saw Dubinsky extended and I am thinking Are the Rangers trying to extend Marc Staals contract? Will the Long Term contracts for Zucc, Brass and Kreids wait till they are ready to walk into the Arbitration room?

We could have extended Brian Boyle earlier in the year.

Why does Sather always wait till the last minute when it comes to our own players but will break the bank for someone elses FA who never did a damn thing in a Ranger uniform?
I think he does what many GMs do. Sather has extended RFAs, and impending UFAs during the season. Not always with success, but he's engaged in those conversations. Think Lundqvist was signed during the season, for example. The Rangers need to make some roster maneuvering and juggle some things around. Staal may not in fact be signed long-term if Sather deems it necessary to fix the forward group further. And Staal can be completed in August. Can be in October. He's the least of Sather's worries now. He needs to fill some roster spots.

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Old
07-11-2014, 02:07 PM
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Sather probably figured a center with 6 goals and 12 assists, and a defenseman with 1 goal and 12 assists, would not be hard to sign. Sather probably did not expect huge playoff months for these guys, when the whole world (and all the GM's) were watching, which bumped up their value significantly.

The goal by Boyle, when he went around Doughty and planted it top shelf over Quick, which was a HUGE goal, probably added $$$ to Boyle's contract alone.

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07-11-2014, 02:46 PM
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Mikos87
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He's an old school guy in a new school era. Not locking up assets or negotiating deals a year before players hit UFA leaves them scrambling or overpaying when the clock is ticking.

Some of it is stubbornness, some of it is laziness.

Look at CHI locking up Andrew Shaw on a bridge for a 2x2 deal. If Shaw were to sign a deal this off season, it would very well likely be at a higher cap AAV. Not by much since he doesn't have leverage, but some.

How is Tyler Seguin on a deal below a $6M cap hit? Well its because the Bruins negotiated a year before the prior contract expired.

Sometimes these deals don't always pan out, but sometimes they are a necessity in managing the cap and controlling your assets.

LA has Carter and Richards in contracts under $6M AAV because PHI negotiated in advance. Philly had Giroux as a PPG center at a the $3M cap hit for 3 years.

The Rangers could have extended Stepan with term and had a very good center with $3-4M cap hit for years, but they'll have to pony up after this year.

It really is a matter of organizational philosophy and foresight. There are reasons as to why some of those teams that manage their cap that way are stacked with talent (CHI, LA, BOS) or retain their talent. PHI is a turnstyle, but the other teams did it right.

Even the Islanders with Tavares at $5.5M, when he is easily worth $8+ nowadays.

What if Lundqvist was extended with 1 year left on his old deal, does he end up with a $8.5M cap hit, or is it just north of $7?

Does Girardi get $5.5 AAV, or does he get less?

Maybe they are finally smartening up and negotiating with Staal with a year left... but out of all the guys to extend early, its a defensive DMAN who doesn't rack up points. Staal as a UFA could get 6. He'll get at least 5.4 and maybe more.

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07-11-2014, 02:53 PM
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Just because players haven't been signed yet doesn't mean Sather/Gorton haven't been talking to them and their agents. They aren't waiting until the last minute, but they aren't under any pressure to get the contracts done right this minute.

We have 4 players we need to sign. Moore will sign sooner or later. He has no leverage and he isn't getting an offer sheet. The rest can't sign an offer sheet and, one way or another, will be under contract by the end of the month. Both sides want to avoid an arbitration hearing, so the pressure to get a deal done will increase every day between now and then. They will get done.

It's a negotiation. Neither side wants to blink first.

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07-11-2014, 02:59 PM
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Just about the only thing I bash Sather for these days is just this.

I honestly think its an ego thing. Glen Sather rushes for nobody. Glen Sather needs no player, Glen Sather will not show that he is desperate to get anything done.

Hank should have been signed last summer. Every RFA goes down to the wire or holds out. Its annoying, but whatever.

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Old
07-11-2014, 03:01 PM
  #7
Chief
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikos87 View Post
Some of it is stubbornness, some of it is laziness.
I don't think this is a fair statement at all.

The Rangers have done some bridge deals and extended some impending UFA's before they hit free agency and play hardball with their players when they can because they believe they are using the system to their advantage. UFA's get "overpaid" because that's the system in place - you have to outbid other teams.

If they don't extend a UFA-to-be before that player becomes a UFA then they are either not interested in the player at the price/years they believe he will command, or they feel that the market will dictate a price that is lower than what the player wants and they will pay that price in the summer.

People can complain about Stralman and Boyle leaving but the Rangers made the decision that they would rather lose those players than accept their cap hits. It's not a case of TB stealing them away from the Rangers, it's a case of the Rangers letting them go.

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Old
07-11-2014, 03:07 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikos87 View Post
He's an old school guy in a new school era. Not locking up assets or negotiating deals a year before players hit UFA leaves them scrambling or overpaying when the clock is ticking.

Some of it is stubbornness, some of it is laziness.

Look at CHI locking up Andrew Shaw on a bridge for a 2x2 deal. If Shaw were to sign a deal this off season, it would very well likely be at a higher cap AAV. Not by much since he doesn't have leverage, but some.

How is Tyler Seguin on a deal below a $6M cap hit? Well its because the Bruins negotiated a year before the prior contract expired.

Sometimes these deals don't always pan out, but sometimes they are a necessity in managing the cap and controlling your assets.

LA has Carter and Richards in contracts under $6M AAV because PHI negotiated in advance. Philly had Giroux as a PPG center at a the $3M cap hit for 3 years.

The Rangers could have extended Stepan with term and had a very good center with $3-4M cap hit for years, but they'll have to pony up after this year.

It really is a matter of organizational philosophy and foresight. There are reasons as to why some of those teams that manage their cap that way are stacked with talent (CHI, LA, BOS) or retain their talent. PHI is a turnstyle, but the other teams did it right.

Even the Islanders with Tavares at $5.5M, when he is easily worth $8+ nowadays.

What if Lundqvist was extended with 1 year left on his old deal, does he end up with a $8.5M cap hit, or is it just north of $7?

Does Girardi get $5.5 AAV, or does he get less?

Maybe they are finally smartening up and negotiating with Staal with a year left... but out of all the guys to extend early, its a defensive DMAN who doesn't rack up points. Staal as a UFA could get 6. He'll get at least 5.4 and maybe more.
This is pretty much my take as well but I will add, waiting can sometimes lead to new options opening up. On the flip side it can also lead to options that were available no longer being.

And the players would also have to be open to signing earlier than they have to.

But my speculation, Sather's style appears to be wait and see what happens and make a choice based on whatever options are left rather than commit to a vision and take proactive steps towards getting there.

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07-11-2014, 03:25 PM
  #9
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The better question is why would these players sign early and not exploit every inch of their market value?

It takes two to tango.

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07-11-2014, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
The better question is why would these players sign early and not exploit every inch of their market value?

It takes two to tango.
Fair, but then we'd also have to question why other players on other teams are willing to sign early and not exploit every inch of their market value.

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07-11-2014, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Off Sides View Post
Fair, but then we'd also have to question why other players on other teams are willing to sign early and not exploit every inch of their market value.
Oh, you mean like McDonagh?

Or are we going to ignore that and keep bringing up one-off instances for other teams?

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07-11-2014, 03:43 PM
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Hard to criticize the front office for this when we don't really know what is going on behind the scenes.

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07-11-2014, 03:50 PM
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Hard to criticize the front office for this when we don't really know what is going on behind the scenes.
Exactly. Theres exactly 2 players on this roster that play at a caliber that would warrant such special treatment. Lundqvist and McDonagh.

Both of them were dealt with early. To your point above, the Rangers likely caved to Lundqvist's price, and McDonagh signed a deal I think he'll regret (if he doesn't already). Dems the breaks.

All the other players? I wouldn't want a GM itchy to make long-term commitments to any of them, to be honest.

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07-11-2014, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Oh, you mean like McDonagh?

Or are we going to ignore that and keep bringing up one-off instances for other teams?
I think McD was a one-off instance for the Rangers, I guess Lundqvist, so a two off-instance?

I do not have a list or anything but I remember, maybe some are inaccurate as I am going from memory but Carter, Richards, Voracek, Simmonds, Seabrook, Bergeron, Lucic, Krejci, Hjalmarsson, Kopitar, Brown as players who were all signed long term before they had to be.

So perhaps Boston, Chicago, LA and Philly are doing something differently?

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07-11-2014, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Off Sides View Post
I think McD was a one-off instance for the Rangers, I guess Lundqvist, so a two off-instance?

I do not have a list or anything but I remember, maybe some are inaccurate as I am going from memory but Carter, Richards, Voracek, Simmonds, Seabrook, Bergeron, Lucic, Krejci, Hjalmarsson, Kopitar, Brown as players who were all signed long term before they had to be.

So perhaps Boston, Chicago, LA and Philly are doing something differently?
It would seem they have better players to lock up long term.

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Old
07-11-2014, 04:00 PM
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Kane One
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But when they get signed for great deals, Gorton will get the credit?

When we get a great deal for one of our RFAs, people here praise Gorton, but when something goes wrong, people here blame Sather.

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07-11-2014, 04:04 PM
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We did not break the bank for UFA this year or last year.

Our cap space is tight. Players want top dollar. Teams want bottom dollar. Its a process. Duby signed for 5.6 mill a year. All of our RFA would jump at that salary. Slats is probably trying to sign our guys for 2-4mill a year to fit everyone under the cap.

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07-11-2014, 04:17 PM
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A pending RFA is a different thing than a pending UFA. If Zucc and Kreider hadn't stepped up this year there would be more cap space available for UFA's--whether our own or others. We wouldn't be looking at paying Zucc and Kreider as much. Zucc and Kreider are going from just over $1 mil per to something more substantial. If they continue to get better they will take up even more cap space in their next contracts. A few years ago the young core of the team was Callahan, Dubinsky, Staal, Girardi and Lundqvist. Two of them are gone and Staal might be on his way out as well. Sometimes you have to decide who you're going to keep and who you're going to move. If you don't move enough players you're stuck with either paying them more or losing them for nothing as UFA's. We moved Dubinsky for a goal scorer who hasn't lived up to his hype. We moved Callahan to bring in an offensive catalyst in the hope that the team would go deeper into the playoffs. That kind of worked. If you think your team is close--then you make the kind of decisions that hopefully push you over the top--that's what the St. Louis deal was about. If you don't think that you're close you should try to go younger--develop a new core.

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07-11-2014, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by free0717 View Post
Whenever we have an RFA or a pending UFA Sather will always wait till the last minute to try to sign him. I just saw Dubinsky extended and I am thinking Are the Rangers trying to extend Marc Staals contract? Will the Long Term contracts for Zucc, Brass and Kreids wait till they are ready to walk into the Arbitration room?

We could have extended Brian Boyle earlier in the year.

Why does Sather always wait till the last minute when it comes to our own players but will break the bank for someone elses FA who never did a damn thing in a Ranger uniform?
I think he is going by his pecking order a bit too hard.

He will sign the players in order of importance, and I recon someone like Staal takes the back seat to the current FAs.

If a big FA takes his time, everyone else will just have to wait.

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07-11-2014, 04:25 PM
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Sather probably figured a center with 6 goals and 12 assists, and a defenseman with 1 goal and 12 assists, would not be hard to sign. Sather probably did not expect huge playoff months for these guys, when the whole world (and all the GM's) were watching, which bumped up their value significantly.

The goal by Boyle, when he went around Doughty and planted it top shelf over Quick, which was a HUGE goal, probably added $$$ to Boyle's contract alone.
That Goal was probably worth $500,000 per year/1.5 M Total.

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07-11-2014, 05:34 PM
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Boyle made $1.8M in salary last season. $1.7M cap hit. That goal didn't mean anything. He turned down more money from Toronto.

The Rangers don't hand out big 2nd contracts. Other teams hand out big 2nd contracts out of entry level. Other agents see that and want the same for their clients. In 2009,Kurt Overhardt couldn't understand why the Rangers would not give Brandon Dubinsky $4M per. Same thing last summer with Derek Stepan. His representatives wanted a long term deal. That's part of the problem. Stepan's agent was still insisting on a long term deal for most of the summer and then wanted more money than usual for a 2 year bridge contract.

The Rangers have given big second contracts to Marc Staal and Ryan McDonagh. Henrik Lundqvist was taken to salary arbitration in 2007 and got a one year deal for $4.25M. The Rangers were afraid of an offer sheet. Vanek had signed an offer sheet earlier that week. He signed the 6 years and $6.875M in January 2008. The Rangers didn't have the room to give Henrik that contract in 2007 after signing Gomez and Drury. The Rangers lopped off Cullen in 07 because they needed the cap space.

Quote:
Sather hopes to avoid that unpleasantness by continuing to negotiate with Meehan. The Rangers are believed to be offering a five- to seven-year deal with an annual salary in the $4.5 million-$5 million range.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ho...ticle-1.269338

Meehan got nearly $7M. The Rangers didn't have the space to give Hank $7M in 07-08.

The Rangers are always have limited space to re-sign their group IIs.

Henrik got 1 year for $4.25M and the 6 years.

Same thing now.

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Old
07-11-2014, 05:41 PM
  #22
mike14
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Hard to criticize the front office for this when we don't really know what is going on behind the scenes.
not on this board it ain't...

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Old
07-11-2014, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Chief View Post
I don't think this is a fair statement at all.

The Rangers have done some bridge deals and extended some impending UFA's before they hit free agency and play hardball with their players when they can because they believe they are using the system to their advantage. UFA's get "overpaid" because that's the system in place - you have to outbid other teams.

If they don't extend a UFA-to-be before that player becomes a UFA then they are either not interested in the player at the price/years they believe he will command, or they feel that the market will dictate a price that is lower than what the player wants and they will pay that price in the summer.

People can complain about Stralman and Boyle leaving but the Rangers made the decision that they would rather lose those players than accept their cap hits. It's not a case of TB stealing them away from the Rangers, it's a case of the Rangers letting them go.
I wasn't referring to UFAs, we all know they get overpaid, but I was referring to RFAs or UFAs to be with one year left on their old deal prior to negotiating, IE closing the Girardi and Lundqvist deal last summer instead of midseason, or the Stepan deal prior to the lockout 3.0.

That's how CHI, BOS, LA and Philly do it. Even with their bridge deals.

Boyle and Stralman are a different story but they too could have been extended early if they were a part of the team's plan moving forward. UFAs to be are a different story since there is a big cash day waiting for them, but my gripe is with RFAs in particular and core UFA to be players.

McDonaugh signed after his contract expired, and on a sweetheart deal. What I propose is signing players to an early extension to control the asset and get a lower cap hit.

Sather isn't that sort of GM that would do that, but the more younger ones would and have. Including those that run teams that have won the last 5 Stanley cups.

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Old
07-11-2014, 06:37 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by Off Sides View Post
This is pretty much my take as well but I will add, waiting can sometimes lead to new options opening up. On the flip side it can also lead to options that were available no longer being.

And the players would also have to be open to signing earlier than they have to.

But my speculation, Sather's style appears to be wait and see what happens and make a choice based on whatever options are left rather than commit to a vision and take proactive steps towards getting there.
While it does leave options open, how many viable assets are out there in free agency that warrant an overpaid contract? Top tier players in their prime hardly ever hit free agency.

Washington just paid 2 2nd pair Dmen a total of 11M AAV. You're right about his stance, but the stance of the teams that have won the last 5 cups since 2010 seem to be a little different.

CHI, BOS, LA, CHI, LA all manage their contracts differently than Sather.

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07-11-2014, 10:39 PM
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Did anyone here ever negotiate anything or is the kindergarten out for the summer?

Sometimes Slats signs players early (Lundqvist, Girardi), sometimes he "waits" because they wouldn't accept what he can afford to pay. Hank and G gave us hometown discounts (you may not recognize it because you think that it is "fair" for UFAs to get paid like RFAs, but look at other similar UFAs).

With others, you negotiate to bring the cost down. You can't have it both ways: you can't attack Slats for overpaying free agents while demanding that he succumb to their early demands. And sometimes they keep demanding unreasonable salaries until the last second, so that's how long it takes.

In fact, most contracts, settlements, plea bargains, etc are concluded at last second because at least one side always thinks, "why do I need to drop my demands, I have time, let's see if I can get more now when I am not up against the wall yet."

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