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07-12-2014, 12:15 AM
  #1
Balthazar
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Salary Structure

I fear that the salary structure will become a nuisance soon and do the exact opposite of what it was supposed to do.

Let me explain...

The point of the salary structure is to be able to keep the players, I understand that. But if they leave because they want more money (ROR, Stastny), how does that help? If the AVS are going to be a cap team (looks like it) then it all comes down to how they spend the money, not if.

They gave 5.5M to Iggy but presumably refuse to give 500k-1M more to ROR. Is it smart? Do they believe that the AVS will win the cup within the next 3 years?

What if Mack doesn't want to take a discount? Will they send him to arbitration and then trade him too? I think we might not be able to keep our players because of the structure.

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07-12-2014, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Balthazar View Post
I fear that the salary structure will become a nuisance soon and do the exact opposite of what it was supposed to do.

Let me explain...

The point of the salary structure is to be able to keep the players, I understand that. But if they leave because they want more money (ROR, Stastny), how does that help? If the AVS are going to be a cap team (looks like it) then it all comes down to how they spend the money, not if.

They gave 5.5M to Iggy but presumably refuse to give 500k-1M more to ROR. Is it smart? Do they believe that the AVS will win the cup within the next 3 years?

What if Mack doesn't want to take a discount? Will they send him to arbitration and then trade him too? I think we might not be able to keep our players because of the structure.
Alright there's a lot of non-sense being said about 'the structure' and it's getting out of control.

Mack won't need to take a discount. By the time his deal is up, he may very well be THE BEST player on the team. The Avs won't have a problem with paying fair market value for players they feel are the best on the team OR fill a huge hole or need on the roster. When EJ's deal is up, even if he has back to back 50 point seasons, I feel very confident that he'll re-sign for somewhere between $5M-$6M per year (pretty sure the Avs will try to lock him up next summer).

The whole idea of 'structure' and 'buying in' is to try and fit in everyone to fair deals at market value (which is EXACTLY what Duchene, Landeskog and Varly signed at the time they were signed) in order to remain competitive and have some cap space to work with, when you're only 1 or 2 pieces away from doing something special.

The structure IS NOT something that is going to be inflexible for the entire length of Duchene's contract....That would be absolutely ridiculous. Duchene will cash in again once his deal is up again...he knows that.

However, by our very own Avs fan's admission of our best players on our team (poll) Ryan O'Reilly ranks 5th. FIFTH ! and that's from people who LOVE HIM!! The Avs are not offering him FIFTH most money, they are offering him the same as the rest of the top guys. Why wouldn't that be good enough? Why would his price be what some desperate GM that built his crappy team through the wings be and not what's fair with comparables throughout the league???

If ROR wanted to sign an 8 year deal for $6M per year, I'm absolutely certain the deal would be made by now.

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07-12-2014, 12:55 AM
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We've already been through this in the thread with the same topic. I won't rehash everything but the structure is so that the money will always be there to pay your stars. The at best 5th best person on your team is not a star.

Considering how much of a player Newport is in this and how this has unfolded very unique to not only our team but around the league its really hard to keep an open mind on all this.

Iggy is at 5.3, btw. Maybe splitting hairs but the difference in this case between 6.5 and 6.3 might be massive.

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07-12-2014, 01:53 AM
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Alright there's a lot of non-sense being said about 'the structure' and it's getting out of control.

Mack won't need to take a discount. By the time his deal is up, he may very well be THE BEST player on the team. The Avs won't have a problem with paying fair market value for players they feel are the best on the team OR fill a huge hole or need on the roster. When EJ's deal is up, even if he has back to back 50 point seasons, I feel very confident that he'll re-sign for somewhere between $5M-$6M per year (pretty sure the Avs will try to lock him up next summer).

The whole idea of 'structure' and 'buying in' is to try and fit in everyone to fair deals at market value (which is EXACTLY what Duchene, Landeskog and Varly signed at the time they were signed) in order to remain competitive and have some cap space to work with, when you're only 1 or 2 pieces away from doing something special.

The structure IS NOT something that is going to be inflexible for the entire length of Duchene's contract....That would be absolutely ridiculous. Duchene will cash in again once his deal is up again...he knows that.

However, by our very own Avs fan's admission of our best players on our team (poll) Ryan O'Reilly ranks 5th. FIFTH ! and that's from people who LOVE HIM!! The Avs are not offering him FIFTH most money, they are offering him the same as the rest of the top guys. Why wouldn't that be good enough? Why would his price be what some desperate GM that built his crappy team through the wings be and not what's fair with comparables throughout the league???

If ROR wanted to sign an 8 year deal for $6M per year, I'm absolutely certain the deal would be made by now.
If you let Stastny go without offering anything higher that $5.8M/year and feel the urge to trade O'Reilly because you won't go above $6M/year it is a system that is inflexible. I'm not sure where the flexibility is. You're setting the ceiling at a point that is not even among top 40 cap hits for the season after next. It's Avs setting the bar at an unrealistic level and expecting everyone to conform.

O'Reilly's price is what his price is. It's not going to be at or below the Duchene ceiling. Either you keep him or you don't. It would be great if everyone is an easy sign like Landeskog and Duchene. Not all are. If you're going to respond to everyone that isn't buying in by letting them walk as a UFA or trade them, you're never going to win a Stanley Cup.

As for trying to fit in everyone in the future. Avs won't have that problem. Worse players don't cost that much to keep and Avs will have plenty of them.

As for the poll. The sixth placed player just got a $7M/year deal from another team.


Last edited by Freudian: 07-12-2014 at 02:32 AM.
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07-12-2014, 09:59 AM
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We've already been through this in the thread with the same topic. I won't rehash everything but the structure is so that the money will always be there to pay your stars. The at best 5th best person on your team is not a star.

Considering how much of a player Newport is in this and how this has unfolded very unique to not only our team but around the league its really hard to keep an open mind on all this.

Iggy is at 5.3, btw. Maybe splitting hairs but the difference in this case between 6.5 and 6.3 might be massive.
The 5th best player on your team does not lead your team in points.
The 5th best player on your team does not lead forwards in time on ice.
The 5th best player on your team is not a Byng winner and top10 Selke nominee
The 5th best player on your team does not not get that much praise from a head coach.

Fan polls don't mean jack. Re-do that poll. I guarantee he will be even further down it. Fans can't separate how good a player is from how much they like a player. The way Roy speaks of him and his TOI is very telling. The staff does not look at this guy as just the 5th best on the team.

As for the number of star players on other teams, that just depends on your definition of star players, which obviously varies widely from person to person. There are plenty of teams with 5 players who have an argument to be paid 6+ per year.

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07-12-2014, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by StayAtHomeAv View Post
The 5th best player on your team does not lead your team in points.
The 5th best player on your team does not lead forwards in time on ice.
The 5th best player on your team is not a Byng winner and top10 Selke nominee
The 5th best player on your team does not not get that much praise from a head coach.

Fan polls don't mean jack. Re-do that poll. I guarantee he will be even further down it. Fans can't separate how good a player is from how much they like a player. The way Roy speaks of him and his TOI is very telling. The staff does not look at this guy as just the 5th best on the team.

As for the number of star players on other teams, that just depends on your definition of star players, which obviously varies widely from person to person. There are plenty of teams with 5 players who have an argument to be paid 6+ per year.
Duchene lead our team in points this season. If O'Reilly wants to point out he was the point leader 2 seasons ago its not going to help much considering Duchene schooled him in points this season despite playing in 9 less games plus change.

There's no doubt O'Reilly is a big part of the team but why should he make more then the player that was 4th! in Hart votes? O'Reilly deserves to be paid, just not more then Duchene/Varly. We need the cap space to make moves.

O'Reilly scored more goals then Landeskog but less points. Landeskog also faced higher competition then O'Reilly. Is O'Reilly worth 1M more then Landeskog? Landeskog who showed himself to be possibly the best defensive forward on the team, who ended up second in points on the Avs and had the highest +/- on the team.

O'Reilly won a Lady Byng and was 6th in Selke voting. That's great. However he wasn't the best player on the team last season. Maybe he isn't the 5th best player on the team but could you put him ahead of Landeskog, Varly, Duchene and EJ?

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07-12-2014, 10:39 AM
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no one has any idea what the differences are in the negotiations

avs might be demonstrating flexibility but ROR is asking for 7+mil/season

or, avs could be offering 5.1 and not budging

tough to know and thus how much any negative impact their structure philosophy is having

don't blame the Avs for not wanting to become the first team to push a 23 year old top end RFA (but not elite) players' salary up by 1-2million / year though (relative to Benn, Hall, RNH, etc).

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07-12-2014, 11:05 AM
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As for the number of star players on other teams, that just depends on your definition of star players, which obviously varies widely from person to person. There are plenty of teams with 5 players who have an argument to be paid 6+ per year.
Who are those teams and what are those players actually paid?

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07-12-2014, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Gigantor The Goalie View Post
Duchene lead our team in points this season. If O'Reilly wants to point out he was the point leader 2 seasons ago its not going to help much considering Duchene schooled him in points this season despite playing in 9 less games plus change.

There's no doubt O'Reilly is a big part of the team but why should he make more then the player that was 4th! in Hart votes? O'Reilly deserves to be paid, just not more then Duchene/Varly. We need the cap space to make moves.

O'Reilly scored more goals then Landeskog but less points. Landeskog also faced higher competition then O'Reilly. Is O'Reilly worth 1M more then Landeskog? Landeskog who showed himself to be possibly the best defensive forward on the team, who ended up second in points on the Avs and had the highest +/- on the team.

O'Reilly won a Lady Byng and was 6th in Selke voting. That's great. However he wasn't the best player on the team last season. Maybe he isn't the 5th best player on the team but could you put him ahead of Landeskog, Varly, Duchene and EJ?
Being outscored by 6 points is "schooling" someone now?

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07-12-2014, 11:13 AM
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Fan polls don't mean jack. Re-do that poll. I guarantee he will be even further down it.
This is *********. Ryan isn't better than Duchene, Landeskog, Varlamov or Johnson in any universe. That doesn't mean his pay has to be less than them, but it certainly doesn't mean whatever deal he signs will be anymore of a bargain if he demands more than them.

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07-12-2014, 11:21 AM
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Who are those teams and what are those players actually paid?
2014-15:

Toews: $6.5M
Kane: $6.5M
Hossa: $7.9M
Sharp: $6.5M
Keith: $7.6M
Crawford: $6.5M

Kopitar: $7.5M
Brown: $7.25M
Richards: $7M
Carter: $6.75M
Doughty: $7M

Varlamov: $6.25M
Duchene: $6M
Iginla: $5.5M
Landeskog: $4.5M

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07-12-2014, 11:28 AM
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Ryan isn't better than Duchene, Landeskog, Varlamov or Johnson in any universe.
Actually he's pretty close to the last 3 and could easily end up having a much greater career than the last 2. We know that ROR is going to be good for years because, well, he was always good and has been steadily improving.

Varly and EJ just had career years at age 26 and both have been struggling before that. Let's see if what they have done last year is sustainable before we put them "way ahead" of ROR.

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07-12-2014, 11:29 AM
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I meant cap hit, not real dollars.

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07-12-2014, 11:34 AM
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I meant cap hit, not real dollars.
There are so many long term deals that have lower cap hit than salaries. You can't expect today's player to have lower salary demands just because of that. They don't. Toews/Kane/Malkin/Getzlaf/Perry clearly proved this.

You could get a Hossa on a $5.275M cap hit before. Today he would come at a $7.5M cap hit. Hossa never was a $5M player and he'll never be paid $5M. He's a $7+M player and has been for the duration of his contract.

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07-12-2014, 11:42 AM
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Being outscored by 6 points is "schooling" someone now?
Well one was at a ~PPG and played what amounted to nearly 10 games less then the other...

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07-12-2014, 11:50 AM
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Well one was at a ~PPG and played what amounted to nearly 10 games less then the other...
So we're using PPG instead of actual points to state this?

All the while assuming that O'Reilly wouldn't have accomplished any more if Duchene wasn't out? He was regularly playing with McGinn/PAP/Mitchell at the end...so that's not going to considered when you make that statement?

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07-12-2014, 11:50 AM
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Actually he's pretty close to the last 3 and could easily end up having a much greater career than the last 2. We know that ROR is going to be good for years because, well, he was always good and has been steadily improving.

Varly and EJ just had career years at age 26 and both have been struggling before that. Let's see if what they have done last year is sustainable before we put them "way ahead" of ROR.
Varly just got himself his first full time coach since landing in Colorado. This season wasn't Varly getting lucky all year. This was Varly reaching his potential. EJ finally has the coach he needs to perform to his expectations as well. Varly and EJ were the better players this season. O'Reilly hasn't separated himself from anyone on the team which is why he isn't worth more then Varly/Duchene/EJ/Landeskog.

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07-12-2014, 11:53 AM
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This is *********. Ryan isn't better than Duchene, Landeskog, Varlamov or Johnson in any universe. That doesn't mean his pay has to be less than them, but it certainly doesn't mean whatever deal he signs will be anymore of a bargain if he demands more than them.
Just curious, what measures are you using to determine that O'Reilly "isn't better than Duchene, Landeskog, Varlamov or Johnson in any universe."?

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07-12-2014, 11:59 AM
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So we're using PPG instead of actual points to state this?

All the while assuming that O'Reilly wouldn't have accomplished any more if Duchene wasn't out? He was regularly playing with McGinn/PAP/Mitchell at the end...so that's not going to considered when you make that statement?
Both had career years with each other. It's not hard to assume that Duchene was the one driving the offense and would have widened out the point lead between them had he played as many games as O'Reilly.

O'Reilly's three most common linemates were Duchene, McGinn, and MacKinnon. Not exactly the least talented forwards on the team. I can't even find out how much Mitchell played with O'Reilly but it was less then 20% of his time on ice.

Duchene's three most common linemates were O'Reilly, McGinn, and PAP. A tie until you get to the third linemate where MacKinnon is way better then PAP.

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07-12-2014, 12:26 PM
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This is *********. Ryan isn't better than Duchene, Landeskog, Varlamov or Johnson in any universe. That doesn't mean his pay has to be less than them, but it certainly doesn't mean whatever deal he signs will be anymore of a bargain if he demands more than them.
It's very hard to compare positions but I think you could easily make a case for him being better than EJ and Varly. Even Landy is very close. There was a ton of back and forth talk over who was having the better year, so it certainly was close.

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07-12-2014, 12:31 PM
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Varly just got himself his first full time coach since landing in Colorado. This season wasn't Varly getting lucky all year. This was Varly reaching his potential. EJ finally has the coach he needs to perform to his expectations as well. Varly and EJ were the better players this season. O'Reilly hasn't separated himself from anyone on the team which is why he isn't worth more then Varly/Duchene/EJ/Landeskog.
"hasn't separated himself from anyone on the team" are you kidding me? He led the team with 28 goals, while playing a different position that he had to adjust to, while still sometime handling defensive responsibilities for Duchene, and led Avs forwards in ice time.

It's amazing how contract talks can change a view of a player completely, even on the ice.

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07-12-2014, 12:36 PM
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"hasn't separated himself from anyone on the team" are you kidding me? He led the team with 28 goals, while playing a different position that he had to adjust to, while still sometime handling defensive responsibilities for Duchene, and led Avs forwards in ice time.

It's amazing how contract talks can change a view of a player completely, even on the ice.
I never once saw someone argue on here that O'Reilly was the best player on the team (or even best 3), so that part is not revisionist history. I'm actually a bit baffled how many considered Varly the MVP of the season but don't value him as high.

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07-12-2014, 12:39 PM
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"hasn't separated himself from anyone on the team" are you kidding me? He led the team with 28 goals, while playing a different position that he had to adjust to, while still sometime handling defensive responsibilities for Duchene, and led Avs forwards in ice time.

It's amazing how contract talks can change a view of a player completely, even on the ice.
I've always been a fan of O'Reilly. If we trade him I don't think he can be replaced for a while. He's a special type of player that you win games with. However that doesn't make him better then Landeskog, Duchene, EJ, Varly. He scored two more goals then Landeskog, not like there was a huge gap. Three players faced harder competition then O'Reilly; Landeskog, Duchene, and Stasnty. Let's not forget why Duchene was added to Team Canada, Yzerman needed to Duchene to be more responsible defensively and he was which allowed him to make the team.

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07-12-2014, 12:41 PM
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I never once saw someone argue on here that O'Reilly was the best player on the team (or even best 3), so that part is not revisionist history. I'm actually a bit baffled how many considered Varly the MVP of the season but don't value him as high.
Because you don't judge a player over one season.

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07-12-2014, 01:25 PM
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Just curious, what measures are you using to determine that O'Reilly "isn't better than Duchene, Landeskog, Varlamov or Johnson in any universe."?
Duchene is obvious.
Landeskog both better defensively AND offensively last year.
Varlamov was a top 3 goaltender last year, nearly won Vezina and was team MVP.
Johnson is a #1 defender, top 20 in the league and was very effective defensively. When comparing a defender to a forward, the best thing I can look at is trade value. Would I move EJ for a ROR in a vacuum? The answer is no.

Age isn't a factor here, everyone knows goalies and defenders take longer to develop.

And soon, ROR will fall behind MacKinnon too. I don't mind paying him top dollars over the long haul, even 6.25mil. But it needs to be a 7/8 year contract so we reap some benefit from paying him top dollar now. Anything higher for a lower term is just going to screw the team over during our competitive years and we'll need to trade him to afford everyone else probably.

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