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Old
07-12-2014, 01:30 PM
  #26
RockLobster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Duchene is obvious.
Landeskog both better defensively AND offensively last year.
Varlamov was a top 3 goaltender last year, nearly won Vezina and was team MVP.
Johnson is a #1 defender, top 20 in the league and was very effective defensively. When comparing a defender to a forward, the best thing I can look at is trade value. Would I move EJ for a ROR in a vacuum? The answer is no.

Age isn't a factor here, everyone knows goalies and defenders take longer to develop.

And soon, ROR will fall behind MacKinnon too. I don't mind paying him top dollars over the long haul, even 6.25mil. But it needs to be a 7/8 year contract so we reap some benefit from paying him top dollar now. Anything higher for a lower term is just going to screw the team over during our competitive years and we'll need to trade him to afford everyone else probably.
That's not what I am asking though.

I asked what measures you're using to determine your statement.

Why is "Duchene obvious"? Because he scores more? O'Reilly wasn't far off from him and provides a better Defensive game so someone could construct a counter argument that O'Reilly is every bit as good as Duchene if not better because their difference (thus far) in offensive output is not greater than the difference in their respective Defensive games.

Comparing forwards to defensemen or goalies seems like a way to pad an argument in your favor without actually attempting to justify it.

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07-12-2014, 01:47 PM
  #27
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Last year the amount of great young talent on this team was a point of pride for this fan base. Now it seems like it's mostly an accounting problem and the players that look to be leaving aren't as good as they used to be.

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07-12-2014, 02:02 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Last year the amount of great young talent on this team was a point of pride for this fan base. Now it seems like it's mostly an accounting problem and the players that look to be leaving aren't as good as they used to be.
Well ROR is not as good as Duchene or Lando independent on if he stays or leaves.
I'm not gonna compare him to players in other positions, but as someone said before, I wouldn't trade Varly or EJ for ROR, so I guess I'd put him down there in 5th as well if going by that standard.
I'd put Staz ahead of ROR as well, and would've loved to sign him, but it wasn't meant to be. And I had Staz ahead of ROR the entire season. Any holdouts that he does won't change my opinion of him on the ice.

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07-12-2014, 02:04 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
That's not what I am asking though.
Note I said 'not better than'. I didn't say 'worse than'. It's semantics, but still worth noting because O'Reilly is very good, but he's not better.

Duchene --> P/G, O'Reilly? 60 point average over the past ~180 games. That's a difference of 22 points in an 82 game season. With Duchene he jumped up to 65 points, he could probably do 70 points. But where are those points coming from? Primarily being assisted by Duchene. Duchene is generating a fair share of O'Reilly's offensive success... we could get into details and say ROR is generating the goal scoring and anyone could send him the puck... but I'd argue that isn't true.

The number of highlights I watched over the season where Duchene did the work to make space for ROR and ROR sent it home leads me to believe Duchene is the key cog and ROR is just very good at finishing (which is NOT to be underrated, it's an important skill).

Landeskog --> Played harder minutes and was more effective defensively. Scored at the same pace as O'Reilly. O'Reilly is not better than Landeskog as a winger.

Varlamov --> Again, my reasoning is simple. Varlamov was one of the 3 best goaltenders in the league last year (with this comes all of the peripheral stats Varly achieved... franchise records, etc). Nearly the best goaltender. He was also the entire team's MVP as said by our coach. O'Reilly is not better than Varlamov.

Johnson --> If you won't accept the #1 defender argument, accept that Johnson makes a greater impact on the game than O'Reilly. Remove one player from the team and the loss is greater with EJ than ROR. Yes, position is a part of determining whether a player is better or not. Because defense is harder to play than offense. If ROR was as dynamic offensively as Duchy, he'd be above EJ. But he's not. And as such, a 65-70 point forward with elite 2-way play does not supplant a 40 point #1 defender with the defensive acumen EJ has (along with his ability to puck carry).

In no way is O'Reilly better than any of them. Which means he is ranked below them. And soon will be below MacKinnon too.

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07-12-2014, 02:09 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
(snip)
Are Rask (actual Vezina winner), Krejci (top scorer on the team) and Chara (#1 Dman) better than Bergeron? Maybe we should ask Bruins fans which one they'd trade first.

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07-12-2014, 02:12 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Balthazar View Post
Are Rask (actual Vezina winner), Krejci (top scorer on the team) and Chara (#1 Dman) better than Bergeron? Maybe we should ask Bruins fans.
Krejci isn't as dynamic a center as Duchene, not a fair comparison. He barely outscored O'Reilly.

Chara even a couple years ago was, but this year Chara lost a lot of steam and most of his goals came via playing in the crease on the PP.

Rask I'm sure they'd consider better or at the very least say Bergeron isn't better than Rask.

Let's also remember that Bergeron is better than O'Reilly...

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07-12-2014, 02:13 PM
  #32
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Bergeron is O'Reilly's ceiling which he isn't close to yet.

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07-12-2014, 02:28 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigantor The Goalie View Post
Bergeron is O'Reilly's ceiling which he isn't close to yet.
Do we know that for sure though?

I remember when he got drafted people were saying that O'Reilly's ceiling would be a "Elite 3rd Line Center" because he just "didn't have a good enough offensive game" for the NHL and he's proven that completely wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Note I said 'not better than'. I didn't say 'worse than'. It's semantics, but still worth noting because O'Reilly is very good, but he's not better.

Duchene --> P/G, O'Reilly? 60 point average over the past ~180 games. That's a difference of 22 points in an 82 game season. With Duchene he jumped up to 65 points, he could probably do 70 points. But where are those points coming from? Primarily being assisted by Duchene. Duchene is generating a fair share of O'Reilly's offensive success... we could get into details and say ROR is generating the goal scoring and anyone could send him the puck... but I'd argue that isn't true.

The number of highlights I watched over the season where Duchene did the work to make space for ROR and ROR sent it home leads me to believe Duchene is the key cog and ROR is just very good at finishing (which is NOT to be underrated, it's an important skill).

Landeskog --> Played harder minutes and was more effective defensively. Scored at the same pace as O'Reilly. O'Reilly is not better than Landeskog as a winger.

Varlamov --> Again, my reasoning is simple. Varlamov was one of the 3 best goaltenders in the league last year (with this comes all of the peripheral stats Varly achieved... franchise records, etc). Nearly the best goaltender. He was also the entire team's MVP as said by our coach. O'Reilly is not better than Varlamov.

Johnson --> If you won't accept the #1 defender argument, accept that Johnson makes a greater impact on the game than O'Reilly. Remove one player from the team and the loss is greater with EJ than ROR. Yes, position is a part of determining whether a player is better or not. Because defense is harder to play than offense. If ROR was as dynamic offensively as Duchy, he'd be above EJ. But he's not. And as such, a 65-70 point forward with elite 2-way play does not supplant a 40 point #1 defender with the defensive acumen EJ has (along with his ability to puck carry).

In no way is O'Reilly better than any of them. Which means he is ranked below them. And soon will be below MacKinnon too.
It is absolutely semantics. Saying that you're not saying someone is "Worse than" someone else but turning around and saying "In no way is he (O'Reilly) better than any of them. Which means he is ranked below them" is absolutely saying he's "worse than".

Duchene's last 3 seasons, which totaled 176 games, so 4 less than the 180 you're using for O'Reilly, want to know how he did? He scored at a .80 PPG pace, which totals out to 65 points when calculated over an entire season.

So going off of those numbers the difference, over the last 180ish games is 5 points more for Duchene every 82ish games...is that your definition of "obviously being better" than someone else?

Duchene just started putting it together with either at PPG (last season) or near PPG (lockout season) years. But I'm asking you (and really everybody else who states that O'Reilly "isn't as good as" Duchene (or anyone else on the team)) is it JUST points you're looking at? Because if so then I would counter that while producing a near similar level offensively (not the exact same, but not too far off either) O'Reilly plays a far superior offensive game, and has for quite some time, and it's just starting to pay off with recognition in the Selke category.


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07-12-2014, 02:35 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
Do we know that for sure though?

I remember when he got drafted people were saying that O'Reilly's ceiling would be a "Elite 3rd Line Center" because he just "didn't have a good enough offensive game" for the NHL and he's proven that completely wrong.
that doesn't mean he has higher ceiling or even as high as bergeron, who to me is top 10C in this league.

it's not absolute certain, nothing is, but most likely. i don't think he will be as good as bergeron will be. same with duchene unless he starts significantly improving his D.

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07-12-2014, 02:36 PM
  #35
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Saying Bergeron is his ceiling is no slight against O'Reilly. Bergeron is one of the best players in the NHL.

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07-12-2014, 02:36 PM
  #36
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I do wonder how much of his offense comes from Dutchy, MacK, etc and our offensive playing style.

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07-12-2014, 02:41 PM
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I do wonder how much of his offense comes from Dutchy, MacK, etc and our offensive playing style.
might help his numbers a bit but he's not going to drop under 50 pts even in say, nashville.

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07-12-2014, 03:24 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
Do we know that for sure though?

I remember when he got drafted people were saying that O'Reilly's ceiling would be a "Elite 3rd Line Center" because he just "didn't have a good enough offensive game" for the NHL and he's proven that completely wrong.



It is absolutely semantics. Saying that you're not saying someone is "Worse than" someone else but turning around and saying "In no way is he (O'Reilly) better than any of them. Which means he is ranked below them" is absolutely saying he's "worse than".

Duchene's last 3 seasons, which totaled 176 games, so 4 less than the 180 you're using for O'Reilly, want to know how he did? He scored at a .80 PPG pace, which totals out to 65 points when calculated over an entire season.

So going off of those numbers the difference, over the last 180ish games is 5 points more for Duchene every 82ish games...is that your definition of "obviously being better" than someone else?

Duchene just started putting it together with either at PPG (last season) or near PPG (lockout season) years. But I'm asking you (and really everybody else who states that O'Reilly "isn't as good as" Duchene (or anyone else on the team)) is it JUST points you're looking at? Because if so then I would counter that while producing a near similar level offensively (not the exact same, but not too far off either) O'Reilly plays a far superior offensive game, and has for quite some time, and it's just starting to pay off with recognition in the Selke category.
I love ROR as a hockey player but at the end of the day i believe it comes to who's selling tickets? Duchesnes or ROR? Offence sale more tickets than Defence. Most fans goes to the game for the offensive plays and pays little to no attention on the defensives plays

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07-12-2014, 03:27 PM
  #39
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Duchene played injured for a chunk of those games, too, which would obviously affect his PPG stat. Had he been healthy, the difference in points between him and ROR would likely have been even more.

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07-12-2014, 03:40 PM
  #40
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Duchene helped O'Reilly and O'Reilly helped Duchene. Even with O'Reilly on that line they still got pinned down in the defensive zone often since Duchene isn't great defensively and the other winger (PAP, McGinn) weren't either.

Remove O'Reilly and it will be ugly. We already have a big hole left by Stastny's departure.

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07-12-2014, 03:47 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Duchene helped O'Reilly and O'Reilly helped Duchene. Even with O'Reilly on that line they still got pinned down in the defensive zone often since Duchene isn't great defensively and the other winger (PAP, McGinn) weren't either.

Remove O'Reilly and it will be ugly. We already have a big hole left by Stastny's departure.
It's sad that we rely so much on our defensively talented forwards to get the puck out of the defensive zone. I really wish we could count on, oh I dunno, our defensemen to do that more!

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07-12-2014, 06:05 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
It is absolutely semantics. Saying that you're not saying someone is "Worse than" someone else but turning around and saying "In no way is he (O'Reilly) better than any of them. Which means he is ranked below them" is absolutely saying he's "worse than".

Duchene's last 3 seasons, which totaled 176 games, so 4 less than the 180 you're using for O'Reilly, want to know how he did? He scored at a .80 PPG pace, which totals out to 65 points when calculated over an entire season.

So going off of those numbers the difference, over the last 180ish games is 5 points more for Duchene every 82ish games...is that your definition of "obviously being better" than someone else?

Duchene just started putting it together with either at PPG (last season) or near PPG (lockout season) years. But I'm asking you (and really everybody else who states that O'Reilly "isn't as good as" Duchene (or anyone else on the team)) is it JUST points you're looking at? Because if so then I would counter that while producing a near similar level offensively (not the exact same, but not too far off either) O'Reilly plays a far superior offensive game, and has for quite some time, and it's just starting to pay off with recognition in the Selke category.
Just curious RL, but are you playing devil's advocate here or actually trying to tell me you believe ROR >= Duchene?

Everyone knows Duchy was injured his junior NHL season, but he was still our highest scoring forward until his legs were taken out in freak injuries. It's undisputable that Duchene's offensive game is quite a fair bit ahead of O'Reilly's. Not 30+ points or something, but a guy who has never hit more than a 65 point average versus a guy that has averaged 80 points over the past 130 games is a fair difference in ability.

And as far as defensive games go... I'd honestly say Duchy's game is underrated. He wasn't asked to play defensively last year, but when he was during the lockout he did pretty well at it. He's not going to be a selke candidate anytime soon of course. But if he had to handle the defensive assignments for his line I think he could do better than average.

So in reality the question is, why do you seem to value a dynamic offense a lot less than most people? Since the amount of players capable of hitting that P/G tier and going beyond it is getting increasingly slim, the value of such players is going up over time comparatively. A 65 point forward is no slight, but a P/G forward is a rare bird indeed. Duchene was 14th in the league in P/G, slightly ahead of guys like Kessel and Benn (whom I doubt you'd argue are as good or equivalent to ROR). There were ~15-20 P/G forwards last year out of 583 that played, that's about 3% of the league's forwards.

Duchene is bordering on the elite status for forwards in the NHL. Does O'Reilly's defensive game, which has not yet won him a Selke (and given the seasons Toews, Bergeron, Kopitar, et al had, did not deserve one), really valuable enough to close the gap between someone in the 3% category and someone in the 8% category?

It's the difference between the Benns & Kessels versus the Pacioretty's and Eberle's.

I see a clear difference. Not a huge one, not one that justifies paying him a ton less or says I won't agree he probably deserves 6-6.25mil given the market, his ability and the increasing cap over time. But one that clearly places him lower on the team's priority list than someone like Duchene. And justifies why Duchene should in all technicality be the highest paid player on the team today.

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07-12-2014, 06:52 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Just curious RL, but are you playing devil's advocate here or actually trying to tell me you believe ROR >= Duchene?

Everyone knows Duchy was injured his junior NHL season, but he was still our highest scoring forward until his legs were taken out in freak injuries. It's undisputable that Duchene's offensive game is quite a fair bit ahead of O'Reilly's. Not 30+ points or something, but a guy who has never hit more than a 65 point average versus a guy that has averaged 80 points over the past 130 games is a fair difference in ability.

And as far as defensive games go... I'd honestly say Duchy's game is underrated. He wasn't asked to play defensively last year, but when he was during the lockout he did pretty well at it. He's not going to be a selke candidate anytime soon of course. But if he had to handle the defensive assignments for his line I think he could do better than average.

So in reality the question is, why do you seem to value a dynamic offense a lot less than most people? Since the amount of players capable of hitting that P/G tier and going beyond it is getting increasingly slim, the value of such players is going up over time comparatively. A 65 point forward is no slight, but a P/G forward is a rare bird indeed. Duchene was 14th in the league in P/G, slightly ahead of guys like Kessel and Benn (whom I doubt you'd argue are as good or equivalent to ROR). There were ~15-20 P/G forwards last year out of 583 that played, that's about 3% of the league's forwards.

Duchene is bordering on the elite status for forwards in the NHL. Does O'Reilly's defensive game, which has not yet won him a Selke (and given the seasons Toews, Bergeron, Kopitar, et al had, did not deserve one), really valuable enough to close the gap between someone in the 3% category and someone in the 8% category?

It's the difference between the Benns & Kessels versus the Pacioretty's and Eberle's.

I see a clear difference. Not a huge one, not one that justifies paying him a ton less or says I won't agree he probably deserves 6-6.25mil given the market, his ability and the increasing cap over time. But one that clearly places him lower on the team's priority list than someone like Duchene. And justifies why Duchene should in all technicality be the highest paid player on the team today.
I don't believe I've hidden my belief, in fact I know that I've outright stated it in other threads talking about O'Reilly.

I think Ryan O'Reilly is every bit as good as Matt Duchene when you factor in the whole game of hockey, not just the offensive side.

Your sample sizes for Duchene keep getting smaller as well (from 180 down to 130) to show that he's a PPG player.

I don't value dynamic offensive ability less either, but I believe it's rather insulting that people are ready to discount all of the good that Ryan O'Reilly brings to the team as a hockey player (and I'm not talking about his contract status) and are making postings that he is "just barely the 5th best player on the team".

He has burgeoning offensive talent and is already elite defensively but that gets downgraded because of Adrian Dater claiming that they are "for sure going to arbitration"? I say that because these threads and the vitriol that is being spewed in his direction has really amped up since that dumbass story came out.

Basically I've been asking you and anyone else that wanted to respond, that if they/you believe Duchene is the "best player on the team" just because he scores more, and it seems like the answer to that question is a resounding "Yes". And that wouldn't be bad reasoning if that's what you believe, in fact one could say that it's quite "sound" reasoning, I just don't buy it all the time. I believe that more than just scoring should be looked at, especially when you factor in the complete games of both players. If offensive talent was all that was needed then would you say that someone like Chris Kunitz (30+ goals the last 3 seasons), Thomas Vanek, or Jordan Eberle are automatically better than Ryan O'Reilly because they score more than he does?

For the record, my stance is that Ryan O'Reilly is on equal ground with Matt Duchene given that their strengths balance out each other's weaknesses

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07-12-2014, 07:36 PM
  #44
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My sample size HAS to be smaller for Duchene. I would do the same for ROR if he had an injury plagued year. Make no mistake, I have no bias here. I am an Avs fan and I am completely honest in my opinion of Avs players when comparing them against one another.

I think we can all agree though, the Duchene of today is not the Duchene of his 3rd year. He has matured, he's worked harder to be the player he is today and his game has taken on an entirely new height compared to his 1st/2nd years. He's not the same free wheeling, spin-o-rama puckhog he was. He distributed a ton more than usual despite being snakebit the final couple months of the season in terms of goalscoring (he arguably has more to give offensively than ROR in terms of potential still).

And in terms of salary structure (since the thread is sort of on a parallel I think), it is quite clear to me that IF the Avs wanted to stick to a 'our best player gets the highest salary'... Duchene is a fair choice for that title. His offensive game is at a level I can't see ROR ever touching outside of a career year, his defensive game is nothing to be upset about and the difference between he and ROR's defensive game just simply cannot account for how rare Duchy's offensive game is.

Outside of offense and defense, what else can you discuss between these two? Leadership? We have no idea, Duchy seems like a more outspoken leader while ROR seems like a more 'lead by example, I'll live or die by the sword' type. Whose to say who is better there? Work ethic? Both work incredibly hard, not fair to distinguish one of them in that category. Hockey IQ? ROR's defensive aptitude is through the roof and his stick control is insane (I'd like it to be noted I'll go on record as one of the first fans to claim ROR would win a Byng or two one day, as quoted below). But Duchy's is equally impressive in the offensive zone, hard to argue that topic very well, maybe a slight edge to ROR? Fishing ability... gotta hand it to Duchene on that one.

Lead me with this discussion here, ask me what you want to hear. Don't tell me to provide you something that I have been providing. There's no way to holistically compare the two and tell me O'Reilly is on Duchene's level. The difference between them is like the difference between Eberle and Hall.

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He is quite possibly the first center since Datsyuk broke out to find a way to play Selke-level defense without taking penalties, making him along the same rare breed to have the potential to contend for a Byng and a Selke.

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07-12-2014, 07:37 PM
  #45
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There isn't a lot to hang optimism on, maybe something in the next 10 days will gleefully surprise us but I'm not a fan of pure hopeful optimism as it is plus add in history in this situation and I think it's best to prepare for the worst.

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07-12-2014, 07:46 PM
  #46
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My sample size HAS to be smaller for Duchene. I would do the same for ROR if he had an injury plagued year. Make no mistake, I have no bias here. I am an Avs fan and I am completely honest in my opinion of Avs players when comparing them against one another.

I think we can all agree though, the Duchene of today is not the Duchene of his 3rd year. He has matured, he's worked harder to be the player he is today and his game has taken on an entirely new height compared to his 1st/2nd years. He's not the same free wheeling, spin-o-rama puckhog he was. He distributed a ton more than usual despite being snakebit the final couple months of the season in terms of goalscoring (he arguably has more to give offensively than ROR in terms of potential still).

And in terms of salary structure (since the thread is sort of on a parallel I think), it is quite clear to me that IF the Avs wanted to stick to a 'our best player gets the highest salary'... Duchene is a fair choice for that title. His offensive game is at a level I can't see ROR ever touching outside of a career year, his defensive game is nothing to be upset about and the difference between he and ROR's defensive game just simply cannot account for how rare Duchy's offensive game is.

Outside of offense and defense, what else can you discuss between these two? Leadership? We have no idea, Duchy seems like a more outspoken leader while ROR seems like a more 'lead by example, I'll live or die by the sword' type. Whose to say who is better there? Work ethic? Both work incredibly hard, not fair to distinguish one of them in that category. Hockey IQ? ROR's defensive aptitude is through the roof and his stick control is insane (I'd like it to be noted I'll go on record as one of the first fans to claim ROR would win a Byng or two one day, as quoted below). But Duchy's is equally impressive in the offensive zone, hard to argue that topic very well, maybe a slight edge to ROR? Fishing ability... gotta hand it to Duchene on that one.

Lead me with this discussion here, ask me what you want to hear. Don't tell me to provide you something that I have been providing. There's no way to holistically compare the two and tell me O'Reilly is on Duchene's level. The difference between them is like the difference between Eberle and Hall.
I am not saying you're wrong about anything you've typed LW, rather I was wanting a better understanding of how you could say that Duchene was "obviously ahead" of O'Reilly. I disagreed with that statement, but never wanted to come across as your opinion was somehow "wrong" or "lesser than".

We look at Matt Duchene and Ryan O'Reilly in two different ways, that much is plain and simple. I see two players who are phenomenal hockey players and make each other so much better together than when they play apart, and their strengths just happen to be the quote/unquote "weakness" of the other.

In my estimation that places them on equal ground because of that. However I can and decidedly will acknowledge that your point of view isn't "wrong" either, it's just one way to look at the situation.

I still think that it's increasingly comical that this latest round of "hatred" towards O'Reilly comes after Adrian Dater, a man I've defended on these boards numerous times, writes that they are going to Arbitration--I mean if he is so bad and has been wrong on many occasions in the past (and he most certainly has), why are people so quick to believe this?

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07-12-2014, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
I still think that it's increasingly comical that this latest round of "hatred" towards O'Reilly comes after Adrian Dater, a man I've defended on these boards numerous times, writes that they are going to Arbitration--I mean if he is so bad and has been wrong on many occasions in the past (and he most certainly has), why are people so quick to believe this?
I'm not sure where you're coming from here? ROR is a topic of discussion amongst Avs fans as he is unsigned and going to team-elected arbitration and on his 2nd round of tricky contract discussions. It has nothing to do with Da-tard.

And everything I said I would have said whether he was signed to Duchy's contract right now or not.

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07-12-2014, 08:44 PM
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I'm not sure where you're coming from here? ROR is a topic of discussion amongst Avs fans as he is unsigned and going to team-elected arbitration and on his 2nd round of tricky contract discussions. It has nothing to do with Da-tard.

And everything I said I would have said whether he was signed to Duchy's contract right now or not.
The most recent round of trash-talking amongst the majority of the board is a direct result of that article, that is what I'm talking about, not you individually, but the board as a collective. That article comes out and everyone is just acting as if it's true, when we don't really know. The last we heard about this from Sakic himself, the two sides hadn't talked, and that was something that could be understandable given that the filed for the Arbitration and then had the Draft and Free Agency to get through.

July 23rd is 11 days away, a lot can happen between now and then.

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07-12-2014, 08:52 PM
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Well that explains why you seemed so hostile about this... pretty misguided hate in my opinion. It has nothing to do with the article, but rather that O'Reilly is unsigned. It's a safe assumption that he'd be extended by now rather than undergoing salary arbitration if he would take a 5.75-6mil extension like the rest of the contracts offered.

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07-12-2014, 09:55 PM
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Well RL...now you know what it's been like to be a Stastny supporter for the last 3-4 years.

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