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Old
07-14-2014, 07:17 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by EdAVSfan View Post
And thats perfectly fine if thats the way you want to think.

But dont say they screwed him. That implies they forced to play for league minimum or told him they wont play him on the ice.

Offering him a very good bridge deal is in no way screwing him.

They didnt want a bridge deal. The avs didnt want a long term deal. No one screwed anyone. Both used the leverage they had to force what they could get out of the other.

Theres no "woe is me" sentiment that either side should have felt or should be feeling now.
Whatever dude.

Never said anything about a woes is me sentiment. Just providing a good reson to hold out and sign in the khl.

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07-14-2014, 08:54 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
If you let Stastny go without offering anything higher that $5.8M/year and feel the urge to trade O'Reilly because you won't go above $6M/year it is a system that is inflexible. I'm not sure where the flexibility is. You're setting the ceiling at a point that is not even among top 40 cap hits for the season after next. It's Avs setting the bar at an unrealistic level and expecting everyone to conform.

O'Reilly's price is what his price is. It's not going to be at or below the Duchene ceiling. Either you keep him or you don't. It would be great if everyone is an easy sign like Landeskog and Duchene. Not all are. If you're going to respond to everyone that isn't buying in by letting them walk as a UFA or trade them, you're never going to win a Stanley Cup.

As for trying to fit in everyone in the future. Avs won't have that problem. Worse players don't cost that much to keep and Avs will have plenty of them.

As for the poll. The sixth placed player just got a $7M/year deal from another team.
Sorry, I haven't been on to respond in a couple of days.

Everyone seems to be acting like ROR will leave and that will be the end of it. It won't be. We will get assets in return that will make this team better. It's very likely that the majority of the fanbase won't be able to 'see it' right away and will be really pissed off but I don't doubt for one second that we'll be better because of it.

Some of you have to realize that maybe, JUST MAYBE Ryan O'Reilly doesn't want to sign a long-term contract with the Avalanche?!?! No matter how much ****ing money we offer him, he doesn't want to stay here?!!? Ever consider that?!?! Maybe it's exactly because he's the 5th best player on the team and could seemingly get 'lost in the shuffle' that he wants to go elsewhere and into a more prominent role?! We can't put a gun to his head to get him to sign long-term!!!

Most of you are going off of the idea that is about money, I believe it is not. There is more to it than that.

When you take into consideration that perhaps, this really isn't about any $$$ amount per year on a contract term and take a step back and see the current situation for what it really is, don't you come to the same conclusion?

Ryan O'Reilly has everything going for him (great stats, great linemates, great coach, pretty nice ****in' city to live in and a team that's on the rise) as a 23 year old young man who's goal should be to eventually win a Stanley Cup. His team, while this is speculative, HAS TO BE offering a long-term contract for what is deemed FAIR throughout the league to remain with the club for the foreseeable future and yet...this is not done?? Do any of you really believe this is about the extra $500,000 per year that could be seperating the two sides??? I don't.

I believe that ROR wants to LEAD a team somewhere in the NHL and with 21 year old Landeskog signed long-term, he will never get that opportunity with the Avs. Some of you might think that's petty and ridiculous but when you think about all of the stuff that the O'Reilly camp values MOST OF ALL, it makes perfect sense.

As for the Stastny thing and the poll, I really don't care if the Blues GM believes that Paul Stastny at $7M is a good deal, I certainly don't. Maybe someday they won't be able to afford Jaden Schwartz and we'll sign him as a UFA away from the Blues. We got Iginla as a Plan B (hell, that might have been PLAN A all along as far as any of us actually know) and when you consider what he'll bring as a leader in that room, I'm not too broken up about losing Staz. I've always like him and defended him quite a bit on HFboards over the past 4 years or so, but I believe he's a #2 center and paying $7M for that kind of player is quite a load. David Clarkson thought he'd be the next Wendel Clark when he 'went home' too, we'll see if Stastny can live up to the pressure and the contract.


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Old
07-14-2014, 08:58 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Bender View Post
Sorry, I haven't been on to respond in a couple of days.

Everyone seems to be acting like ROR will leave and that will be the end of it. It won't be. We will get assets in return that will make this team better. It's very likely that the majority of the fanbase won't be able to 'see it' right away and will be really pissed off but I don't doubt for one second that we'll be better because of it.

Some of you have to realize that maybe, JUST MAYBE Ryan O'Reilly doesn't want to sign a long-term contract with the Avalanche?!?! No matter how much ****ing money we offer him, he doesn't want to stay here?!!? Ever consider that?!?! Maybe it's exactly because he's the 5th best player on the team and could seemingly get 'lost in the shuffle' that he wants to go elsewhere and into a more prominent role?! We can't put a gun to his head to get him to sign long-term!!!

Most of you are going off of the idea that is about money, I believe it is not. There is more to it than that.

When you take into consideration that perhaps, this really isn't about any $$$ amount per year on a contract term and take a step back and see the current situation for what it really is, don't you come to the same conclusion?

Ryan O'Reilly has everything going for him (great stats, great linemates, great coach, pretty nice ****in' city to live in and a team that's on the rise) as a 23 year old young man who's goal should be to eventually win a Stanley Cup. His team, while this is speculative, HAS TO BE offering a long-term contract for what is deemed FAIR throughout the league to remain with the club for the foreseeable future and yet...this is not done?? Do any of you really believe this is about the extra $500,000 per year that could be seperating the two sides??? I don't.

I believe that ROR wants to LEAD a team somewhere in the NHL and with 21 year old Landeskog signed long-term, he will never get that opportunity with the Avs. Some of you might think that's petty and ridiculous but when you think about all of the stuff that the O'Reilly camp value MOST OF ALL, it makes perfect sense.
That is what happened with Kyle Lowry and the Toronto Raptors so it is possible. I know it's a different sport but leading a team and being the star was just as important as the money for Lowry.

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07-14-2014, 09:11 PM
  #79
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I believe that ROR wants to LEAD a team somewhere in the NHL and with 21 year old Landeskog signed long-term, he will never get that opportunity with the Avs. Some of you might think that's petty and ridiculous but when you think about all of the stuff that the O'Reilly camp values MOST OF ALL, it makes perfect sense.
Very nice insightful if true. Would make sense given all the resistance he's put up and would be much more consistent w/ his other behavior traits- discipline, dedication to craft, work ethic, motivation rather than all of those things and, oh yeah, he's just after the most coin....

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07-14-2014, 09:11 PM
  #80
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I think you are on to something Bender, for something like this to happen it has to be about more than money. but it might be more about getting offended the last time and continuing feelings from that bruised ego manifesting this time. I'm sure a lot of guys want to be the star but it's not as easy as it sounds. My guess is he likes his role on the team, I don't feel like angling for that per se. I think it's more about being angry.

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07-14-2014, 09:19 PM
  #81
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Sorry, I haven't been on to respond in a couple of days.

Everyone seems to be acting like ROR will leave and that will be the end of it. It won't be. We will get assets in return that will make this team better. It's very likely that the majority of the fanbase won't be able to 'see it' right away and will be really pissed off but I don't doubt for one second that we'll be better because of it.

Some of you have to realize that maybe, JUST MAYBE Ryan O'Reilly doesn't want to sign a long-term contract with the Avalanche?!?! No matter how much ****ing money we offer him, he doesn't want to stay here?!!? Ever consider that?!?! Maybe it's exactly because he's the 5th best player on the team and could seemingly get 'lost in the shuffle' that he wants to go elsewhere and into a more prominent role?! We can't put a gun to his head to get him to sign long-term!!!

Most of you are going off of the idea that is about money, I believe it is not. There is more to it than that.

When you take into consideration that perhaps, this really isn't about any $$$ amount per year on a contract term and take a step back and see the current situation for what it really is, don't you come to the same conclusion?

Ryan O'Reilly has everything going for him (great stats, great linemates, great coach, pretty nice ****in' city to live in and a team that's on the rise) as a 23 year old young man who's goal should be to eventually win a Stanley Cup. His team, while this is speculative, HAS TO BE offering a long-term contract for what is deemed FAIR throughout the league to remain with the club for the foreseeable future and yet...this is not done?? Do any of you really believe this is about the extra $500,000 per year that could be seperating the two sides??? I don't.

I believe that ROR wants to LEAD a team somewhere in the NHL and with 21 year old Landeskog signed long-term, he will never get that opportunity with the Avs. Some of you might think that's petty and ridiculous but when you think about all of the stuff that the O'Reilly camp values MOST OF ALL, it makes perfect sense.

As for the Stastny thing and the poll, I really don't care if the Blues GM believes that Paul Stastny at $7M is a good deal, I certainly don't. Maybe someday they won't be able to afford Jaden Schwartz and we'll sign him as a UFA away from the Blues. We got Iginla as a Plan B (hell, that might have been PLAN A all along as far as any of us actually know) and when you consider what he'll bring as a leader in that room, I'm not too broken up about losing Staz. I've always like him and defended him quite a bit on HFboards over the past 4 years or so, but I believe he's a #2 center and paying $7M for that kind of player is quite a load. David Clarkson thought he'd be the next Wendel Clark when he 'went home' too, we'll see if Stastny can live up to the pressure and the contract.
I believe he just wants the money. He signed his offer-sheet when Iginla was still there. If he really wanted to lead a team or didn't want to stay an Avalanche player he would just have signed an offer sheet recently.

My personal opinion is that he wants more money so he can put more money into his fathers fitness club (or whatever it's called). It would be an investment for him, as he will most likely continue it when he retires/has father passes away. A few extra million for marketing could help lots.

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07-14-2014, 09:24 PM
  #82
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I believe he just wants the money. He signed his offer-sheet when Iginla was still there. If he really wanted to lead a team or didn't want to stay an Avalanche player he would just have signed an offer sheet recently.

My personal opinion is that he wants more money so he can put more money into his fathers fitness club (or whatever it's called). It would be an investment for him, as he will most likely continue it when he retires/has father passes away. A few extra million for marketing could help lots.
Papa O'Reilly ain't no fitness coach

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07-15-2014, 05:37 AM
  #83
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If you or anyone REALLY believes that Sakic ONLY signed that OS "just to play with Gretzky"...I'd invite you to give your head a good, long shake, because I would combat that and say that the obvious bias against O'Reilly and his contract status is blinding you.
No, but that is actually a valid reason. ROR had none, except his own greediness or not wanting to stay an Avalanche. Both no-nos in my mind as an Avs fan.
I wasn't following Avs at the time Sakic signed it, but looking back now I can somehow find some understanding why he did it. With ROR I can find none.


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07-15-2014, 05:38 AM
  #84
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OK, do that. Everyone signs based of Duchene's salary. Like MacKinnon. Say at the end of his three year ELC, he is on par with Duchene, as they both continue to delvelop. So he is forced by this logic to take $30m/5yr. Three years later, continued development makes him better than Matt, who is now due a new contract. But the best player is making $6m, so he has to take less. Despite the cap having gone up to $88m or so.
ROR's and Duchene's contracts start at the same time. They are comparable. MacK's next contract will start in 2 years time, with a different cap situation.
Completely different scenarios.

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07-15-2014, 06:22 AM
  #85
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Sorry, I haven't been on to respond in a couple of days.

Everyone seems to be acting like ROR will leave and that will be the end of it. It won't be. We will get assets in return that will make this team better. It's very likely that the majority of the fanbase won't be able to 'see it' right away and will be really pissed off but I don't doubt for one second that we'll be better because of it.

Some of you have to realize that maybe, JUST MAYBE Ryan O'Reilly doesn't want to sign a long-term contract with the Avalanche?!?! No matter how much ****ing money we offer him, he doesn't want to stay here?!!? Ever consider that?!?! Maybe it's exactly because he's the 5th best player on the team and could seemingly get 'lost in the shuffle' that he wants to go elsewhere and into a more prominent role?! We can't put a gun to his head to get him to sign long-term!!!

Most of you are going off of the idea that is about money, I believe it is not. There is more to it than that.

When you take into consideration that perhaps, this really isn't about any $$$ amount per year on a contract term and take a step back and see the current situation for what it really is, don't you come to the same conclusion?

Ryan O'Reilly has everything going for him (great stats, great linemates, great coach, pretty nice ****in' city to live in and a team that's on the rise) as a 23 year old young man who's goal should be to eventually win a Stanley Cup. His team, while this is speculative, HAS TO BE offering a long-term contract for what is deemed FAIR throughout the league to remain with the club for the foreseeable future and yet...this is not done?? Do any of you really believe this is about the extra $500,000 per year that could be seperating the two sides??? I don't.

I believe that ROR wants to LEAD a team somewhere in the NHL and with 21 year old Landeskog signed long-term, he will never get that opportunity with the Avs. Some of you might think that's petty and ridiculous but when you think about all of the stuff that the O'Reilly camp values MOST OF ALL, it makes perfect sense.

As for the Stastny thing and the poll, I really don't care if the Blues GM believes that Paul Stastny at $7M is a good deal, I certainly don't. Maybe someday they won't be able to afford Jaden Schwartz and we'll sign him as a UFA away from the Blues. We got Iginla as a Plan B (hell, that might have been PLAN A all along as far as any of us actually know) and when you consider what he'll bring as a leader in that room, I'm not too broken up about losing Staz. I've always like him and defended him quite a bit on HFboards over the past 4 years or so, but I believe he's a #2 center and paying $7M for that kind of player is quite a load. David Clarkson thought he'd be the next Wendel Clark when he 'went home' too, we'll see if Stastny can live up to the pressure and the contract.
He was actively being shopped by Avs when he signed the offer sheet. If he desperately wanted to go elsewhere, he wouldn't have signed the offer sheet and end up being tied to Avs for another four years.

I think it's mostly about money and him reacting violently to Duchene being used as his ceiling in negotiations. It's what messed things up last time and Avs are doing the exact same thing again with a predictable result. Starting a negotiation with O'Reilly with the attitude that he's not worth more than Duchene is the wrong way to go about it because he is, as his agent says, "a very stubborn young man".

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07-15-2014, 06:33 AM
  #86
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He was actively being shopped by Avs when he signed the offer sheet. If he desperately wanted to go elsewhere, he wouldn't have signed the offer sheet and end up being tied to Avs for another four years.

I think it's mostly about money and him reacting violently to Duchene being used as his ceiling in negotiations. It's what messed things up last time and Avs are doing the exact same thing again with a predictable result. Starting a negotiation with O'Reilly with the attitude that he's not worth more than Duchene is the wrong way to go about it because he is, as his agent says, "a very stubborn young man".
So your solution is to stroke his ego and tell him he's Gretzky?

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07-15-2014, 06:51 AM
  #87
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So your solution is to stroke his ego and tell him he's Gretzky?
Treating him as his own player would be a good start. Avs already have tried this Duchene ceiling idea twice and it's failed miserably.

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07-15-2014, 07:03 AM
  #88
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Treating him as his own player would be a good start. Avs already have tried this Duchene ceiling idea twice and it's failed miserably.
And O'Reilly is not better then Duchene and only marginally better then Landeskog. He's also a RFA on a team that has no problem giving market value deals.

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07-15-2014, 07:18 AM
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And O'Reilly is not better then Duchene and only marginally better then Landeskog. He's also a RFA on a team that has no problem giving market value deals.
I'd argue that they are indeed having problems giving market value deals. The market for Stastny was $7M/year. Avs offered $5.8M/year. They're about to lose O'Reilly for insisting he should sign for $6M/year.

Would it be nice if O'Reilly was easier to deal with in negotiations and he would sign good contracts like Duchene and Landeskog? Of course. But he isn't and we've known about it for years.

I'm more interested in trying to keep the player instead of trying to teach him a lesson that he's not worth more money than Duchene. He'll demonstrate that he is with his next contract. It might be with Avs or it might be with another team.

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07-15-2014, 07:24 AM
  #90
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It's not about Duchene, make it about Varly if you want to.

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07-15-2014, 07:34 AM
  #91
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It's not about Duchene, make it about Varly if you want to.
It shouldn't be about either.

Ryan O'Reilly will make more than Matt Duchene on the next contract he signs with a NHL team. It might be with Avs in the coming week (unlikely). It might be in January after he's been traded. It might be in two years time when he's a UFA.

Roy and Sakic, who twisted Lacroix's arm June 30th 2001 to squeeze every dollar they could out of him, hopefully realize this.

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07-15-2014, 07:41 AM
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I'd argue that they are indeed having problems giving market value deals. The market for Stastny was $7M/year. Avs offered $5.8M/year. They're about to lose O'Reilly for insisting he should sign for $6M/year.

Would it be nice if O'Reilly was easier to deal with in negotiations and he would sign good contracts like Duchene and Landeskog? Of course. But he isn't and we've known about it for years.

I'm more interested in trying to keep the player instead of trying to teach him a lesson that he's not worth more money than Duchene. He'll demonstrate that he is with his next contract. It might be with Avs or it might be with another team.
Holden/Mitchell/Berra/Duchene/Landeskog have all signed at or above market value deals. Stastny wanted to leave and the Avs couldn't screw themselves over by having a 3rd line centre at 7M in the next few years.

It's not about taking Duchene money, it's about taking a fair deal. Duchene/Varly/Landeskog were easy to sign, why isn't O'Reilly?

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07-15-2014, 07:47 AM
  #93
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It shouldn't be about either.

Ryan O'Reilly will make more than Matt Duchene on the next contract he signs with a NHL team. It might be with Avs in the coming week (unlikely). It might be in January after he's been traded. It might be in two years time when he's a UFA.

Roy and Sakic, who twisted Lacroix's arm June 30th 2001 to squeeze every dollar they could out of him, hopefully realize this.
And if he does he's probably the star on that team too. Or if the word star rubs people the wrong way, think of it as priorities. Like it or not every team has to identify priorities, they can't have 5+ priorities or else it defeats the definition of the word. O'Reilly is not the priority here, he never will be. Maybe he's not ok with that but other guys are. That's why it will never work assuming the inevitable happens. Everyone can use colorful words and arguments about how valuable he is and I'm not going to disagree but it's clear who the priorities on this franchise are.

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07-15-2014, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Gigantor The Goalie View Post
Holden/Mitchell/Berra/Duchene/Landeskog have all signed at or above market value deals. Stastny wanted to leave and the Avs couldn't screw themselves over by having a 3rd line centre at 7M in the next few years.

It's not about taking Duchene money, it's about taking a fair deal. Duchene/Varly/Landeskog were easy to sign, why isn't O'Reilly?
Because he's not Duchene/Varly/Landeskog and he thinks he's worth more than $6M year?

I'm not sure why anyone would expect him to be like those three considering what the team went through with him two years ago and who he is represented by.


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07-15-2014, 07:53 AM
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And if he does he's probably the star on that team too. Or if the word star rubs people the wrong way, think of it as priorities. Like it or not every team has to identify priorities, they can't have 5+ priorities or else it defeats the definition of the word. O'Reilly is not the priority here, he never will be. Maybe he's not ok with that but other guys are. That's why it will never work assuming the inevitable happens. Everyone can use colorful words and arguments about how valuable he is and I'm not going to disagree but it's clear who the priorities on this franchise are.
I strongly disagree with your notion that anyone that's not Duchene and MacKinnon isn't really needed here.

Depth wins championships. Strong two-way play wins championships. This summer Avs looks to be taking a big hit in both areas the way things are going.

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07-15-2014, 07:57 AM
  #96
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Of course you need more than two, I'm not saying that at all. The Kings have a grand total of 2 that make more than 6m, the Hawks have a grand total of 2 as well. It's pretty clear to see who the priorities are on those franchises.

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07-15-2014, 08:02 AM
  #97
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I strongly disagree with your notion that anyone that's not Duchene and MacKinnon isn't really needed here.

Depth wins championships. Strong two-way play wins championships. This summer Avs looks to be taking a big hit in both areas the way things are going.
Yes, depth wins championships. But depth players don't get paid like stars -- or priorities as Tigervixxen named them.

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07-15-2014, 08:05 AM
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be smart on your depth signings and that 1 mil or even less that they'd pay more for ROR that they'd like is essentially diminished. also draft well.

hawks and kings have lot of deals that can't be done under this CBA.

everyone would prefer to keep the cap hit small but as it has come down to this, i'd pay him. pay for good players. get the depth cheap. teams usually run into cap troubles when they mess up on their role and depth players, paying them too much.

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07-15-2014, 08:06 AM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Thudd View Post
Yes, depth wins championships. But depth players don't get paid like stars -- or priorities as Tigervixxen named them.
ROR is more than depth player and stars will get paid more than 6.5 mil long-term during this CBA. getting him at that would be discount in few years and maybe steal at the end.

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07-15-2014, 08:08 AM
  #100
Bubba Thudd
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I'd sign ROR at 6.5M. IF he were willing to sign long term. Because he'll be worth that and more by the end of the contract. But I wouldn't give him that just to carry him to UFA status.

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