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Old
07-15-2014, 08:12 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Bubba Thudd View Post
Yes, depth wins championships. But depth players don't get paid like stars -- or priorities as Tigervixxen named them.
2014-15:

Toews: $6.5M
Kane: $6.5M
Hossa: $7.9M
Sharp: $6.5M
Keith: $7.6M
Crawford: $6.5M
Seabrook: $5M

Kopitar: $7.5M
Brown: $7.25M
Richards: $7M
Carter: $6.75M
Doughty: $7M
Gaborik: $6.075M
Quick: $7M

Duchene: $6M
Landeskog: $4.5M
Varlamov: $6.25M
Iginla: $5.5M

Just because the cap circumventing contracts give the illusion that these teams don't pay the players surrounding their stars money doesn't mean that they don't. They always paid good money.

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07-15-2014, 08:13 AM
  #102
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I'd sign ROR at 6.5M. IF he were willing to sign long term. Because he'll be worth that and more by the end of the contract. But I wouldn't give him that just to carry him to UFA status.
fully in agreement there. it has to be 8 or at least close to it. if he wants 2x6.5 mil now and doesn't want to sign long-term... adios amigo.

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07-15-2014, 08:28 AM
  #103
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Obviously the Avs are years behind the build of teams like LA and Chicago, when they get everyone signed long term there will be more on the list. They will have many players making good money. It's not like the Avs expect O'Reilly to take John Mitchell money. It sounds like it's about money but it isn't, from both parties. It's about as funny as it sounds, the structure of the team (not salary structure, the actual make up) and on O'Reilly's side it's about proving a point about something.

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Old
07-15-2014, 10:10 AM
  #104
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No, but that is actually a valid reason. ROR had none, except his own greediness or not wanting to stay an Avalanche. Both no-nos in my mind as an Avs fan.
I wasn't following Avs at the time Sakic signed it, but looking back now I can somehow find some understanding why he did it. With ROR I can find none.
Don't look now, your bias is showing.

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07-15-2014, 10:40 AM
  #105
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No, but that is actually a valid reason. ROR had none, except his own greediness or not wanting to stay an Avalanche. Both no-nos in my mind as an Avs fan.
I'm sorry, not meaning to offend, but this just screams "biased"...so Sakic signing an OS that would have made him, at the time, the highest paid player in the NHL (when factoring in total contract) and designed to NOT be matched by the Avalanche, as evident by the fact that the owners at the time were bleeding money (the financial success of the Harrison Ford movie "Air Force One" ended up having a big part of them being able to match) and the Avs and Sakic had not been able to agree to terms.

The team swooping in to try and steal him was New York and they happened to have an aging, albeit still good, Wayne Gretzky...so again if you're saying that Joe Sakic, who NEVER gave the Avalanche any type of discount for his services, as was his prerogative as a player (and one I AGREE with), ONLY signed that offer sheet with New York BECAUSE of Wayne Gretzky...then again I would want you to think about the obvious bias that is coming from that statement.

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07-15-2014, 10:59 AM
  #106
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And if he does he's probably the star on that team too. Or if the word star rubs people the wrong way, think of it as priorities. Like it or not every team has to identify priorities, they can't have 5+ priorities or else it defeats the definition of the word. O'Reilly is not the priority here, he never will be. Maybe he's not ok with that but other guys are. That's why it will never work assuming the inevitable happens. Everyone can use colorful words and arguments about how valuable he is and I'm not going to disagree but it's clear who the priorities on this franchise are.
You may not think of him as a priority, but I can pretty much guarantee Roy and Sakic think of him as one. Just listen to how they talk about him. At the trade deadline it was 'RoR will be here, we will talk to Staz this offseason'. Numerous times he has been mentioned as part of the core. And now he was mentioned as one of the faces of the program. If the way they speak of him is not enough then his TOI should be very telling. Teams don't give secondary players top minutes. And RoR did not just lead the team, he had a full minute+ more than anyone else.

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Old
07-15-2014, 11:03 AM
  #107
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Of course you need more than two, I'm not saying that at all. The Kings have a grand total of 2 that make more than 6m, the Hawks have a grand total of 2 as well. It's pretty clear to see who the priorities are on those franchises.
First you argue that it's obvious who our priorities are (Lando, Duchene, Varly) but then downplay anyone else making less than 6.

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07-15-2014, 11:10 AM
  #108
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Papa O'Reilly ain't no fitness coach
His twitter name is "Coachbri" and in his bio he has "performance coach" as the first 2 words.

BTW here's his hockey camp.

http://www.brianoreilly.ca/pdfs/boot...lplus-2014.pdf

I could be wrong about this though, as I haven't really done much research on him, but I thought he told Hishon to come join him or something like that. Also whenever I go to his twitter I see stuff about clubs and hockey camps.

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And O'Reilly is not better then Duchene and only marginally better then Landeskog. He's also a RFA on a team that has no problem giving market value deals.
Since when

They wouldn't give Stastny fair market value, and they are trying to get O'reilly for cheap. Stastny even said he would sign for the same amount he already was signed for.

Truth be told, sure he's not better than Duchene. But he was better than the Duchene that signed that contract. O'reilly earned his $6.5m this year. With players like Toews and Kane signing for 10m and with the cap going up, O'reilly at 6.5m-7m will look good.

I don't think it's crazy to value a 60+ two way player at $6m, To me there is no problem paying O'reailly more than Duchene.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If we lose O'reilly and if we don't get a return that help us right away then I really believe we handled our center situation worse than how the Canucks handled Luongo and Schnieder situation.

Does anyone know how much O'reilly is asking for? Is it 6m? 6.5m? 7m?

What is the opinion around here on what they believe O'reilly should get. I believe he should get around 6.5m, and I hope that he would sign for under it, but I would be willing to give him more than Duchene.

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07-15-2014, 11:11 AM
  #109
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I'm sorry, not meaning to offend, but this just screams "biased"...so Sakic signing an OS that would have made him, at the time, the highest paid player in the NHL (when factoring in total contract) and designed to NOT be matched by the Avalanche, as evident by the fact that the owners at the time were bleeding money (the financial success of the Harrison Ford movie "Air Force One" ended up having a big part of them being able to match) and the Avs and Sakic had not been able to agree to terms.

The team swooping in to try and steal him was New York and they happened to have an aging, albeit still good, Wayne Gretzky...so again if you're saying that Joe Sakic, who NEVER gave the Avalanche any type of discount for his services, as was his prerogative as a player (and one I AGREE with), ONLY signed that offer sheet with New York BECAUSE of Wayne Gretzky...then again I would want you to think about the obvious bias that is coming from that statement.
As I said it is at least something. Didn't say it was a good argument. Said it actually resembled something you could understand. In ROR's case I have trouble finding anything to grasp onto except for him wanting to be the man. But I think a team where he is the man won't really win anything. Which I fear he doesn't realize.
And Sakic was kinda the better player as well and a legend now, so obviously there is some bias. I won't try to disguise it.

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Originally Posted by Sakic19Duchene9
Does anyone know how much O'reilly is asking for? Is it 6m? 6.5m? 7m?
I don't think anyone has any idea, but I still think he wants to use the first 5 years of the Bergeron contract as a benchmark, which will provide him with somewhat of a reason to ask for over 7m/year.

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07-15-2014, 11:54 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
He was actively being shopped by Avs when he signed the offer sheet. If he desperately wanted to go elsewhere, he wouldn't have signed the offer sheet and end up being tied to Avs for another four years.

I think it's mostly about money and him reacting violently to Duchene being used as his ceiling in negotiations. It's what messed things up last time and Avs are doing the exact same thing again with a predictable result. Starting a negotiation with O'Reilly with the attitude that he's not worth more than Duchene is the wrong way to go about it because he is, as his agent says, "a very stubborn young man".
I believe that he didn't think the Avs would match (based on what he was offered initially by the Avs and Calgary's place in the standings [bottom 10 team = high pick]) and that Calgary would eventually allow him the opportunity to be 'the man' after Iggy moved on. Remember, he didn't sign an offer sheet that gave him unbelieveable money over a long-term to force the Avs to match and then he'd be happy with his contract...he signed an offer sheet that was designed to make it difficult for the Avs to match and want to retain.

I don't believe that's the issue at all. I mean, if the Avs were telling him that he's no better than Jamie McGinn, then fine...I get it and would completely understand that kind of reaction but your premise lies with the fact that he's upset he's being labelled only as good as the best player on our team, when in fact that's a huge compliment. O'Reilly wasn't considered for Team Canada, in what universe would he have any right to be upset? This is more about Landeskog than it is about Duchene, in my opinion.

If you remember, it was during the lockout and contract dispute that the Avs named Landeskog captain and the very LAST GUY that any Avs fan would have figured would have been difficult to sign would have been ROR. He was offered a bridge deal that paid him as well as our best player (and more than Subban)...how is telling him we value you as much as the very best we have on our team, an apparent slap in the face???

O'Reilly had his heart set on becoming the next captain of the Avs when is was looking like Hejduk wasn't going to be brought back and when they chose to give it to a guy coming off a great rookie year, but 2 years younger he viewed THAT as a slap in the face much moreso than the absolutely fair bridge deal. Just my opinion.

So in the end, it becomes a "that's fine, I'll play here but you're going to pay a huge premium to have me on the team and when I can decide my own fate, I'll be long gone" kind of situation.

Regardless of the 'why', the end result is ROR playing for a different squad by age 25 at the very latest. We just have different opinions as to the reasoning behind it all. At some point, he will be traded and at some point, he will sign a long-term contract with THAT team (as long as it's the right situation for him) for a very FAIR wage that will give him new team flexibility to sign others and that will unquestionably have Avs fans questioning what we actually offered him to begin with.

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07-15-2014, 11:55 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Sakic19Duchene9 View Post

Since when

They wouldn't give Stastny fair market value, and they are trying to get O'reilly for cheap. Stastny even said he would sign for the same amount he already was signed for.

Truth be told, sure he's not better than Duchene. But he was better than the Duchene that signed that contract. O'reilly earned his $6.5m this year. With players like Toews and Kane signing for 10m and with the cap going up, O'reilly at 6.5m-7m will look good.

I don't think it's crazy to value a 60+ two way player at $6m, To me there is no problem paying O'reailly more than Duchene.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If we lose O'reilly and if we don't get a return that help us right away then I really believe we handled our center situation worse than how the Canucks handled Luongo and Schnieder situation.

Does anyone know how much O'reilly is asking for? Is it 6m? 6.5m? 7m?

What is the opinion around here on what they believe O'reilly should get. I believe he should get around 6.5m, and I hope that he would sign for under it, but I would be willing to give him more than Duchene.
Since the Duchene/Holden/Landeskog/Varly/Geunin/Berra contracts. That's when. And all of the players had no problems signing their contracts. O'Reilly was better then Duchene in the lockout season? Probably not considering Duchene and PAP were the only bright spots two seasons ago plus Duchene's combined play in the past two seasons got him a Gold Medal on Team Canada.

O'Reilly's agent said the negotiation starts at 6.5M and it will only go up from there.

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07-15-2014, 01:22 PM
  #112
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Since the Duchene/Holden/Landeskog/Varly/Geunin/Berra contracts. That's when. And all of the players had no problems signing their contracts. O'Reilly was better then Duchene in the lockout season? Probably not considering Duchene and PAP were the only bright spots two seasons ago plus Duchene's combined play in the past two seasons got him a Gold Medal on Team Canada.

O'Reilly's agent said the negotiation starts at 6.5M and it will only go up from there.
Duchene signed his contract before the lockout season. ROR was seen as a reliable second line center (next to Duchene) and outplayed Stastny during the Lockout season. Everything you're talking about is after Duchene signed his contract. What Duchene was worth before the lockout season is not O'reilly is worth now.

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07-15-2014, 01:24 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Sakic19Duchene9 View Post
Duchene signed his contract before the lockout season. ROR was seen as a reliable second line center (next to Duchene) and outplayed Stastny during the Lockout season. Everything you're talking about is after Duchene signed his contract. What Duchene was worth before the lockout season is not O'reilly is worth now.
Which Duchene contract are we talking about? The Extension or the bridge deal?

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07-15-2014, 01:44 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Sakic19Duchene9 View Post
Duchene signed his contract before the lockout season. ROR was seen as a reliable second line center (next to Duchene) and outplayed Stastny during the Lockout season. Everything you're talking about is after Duchene signed his contract. What Duchene was worth before the lockout season is not O'reilly is worth now.
I don't think anyone is arguing the fact that ROR is worth more than 3.5mil.

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07-15-2014, 01:58 PM
  #115
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I believe that he didn't think the Avs would match (based on what he was offered initially by the Avs and Calgary's place in the standings [bottom 10 team = high pick]) and that Calgary would eventually allow him the opportunity to be 'the man' after Iggy moved on. Remember, he didn't sign an offer sheet that gave him unbelieveable money over a long-term to force the Avs to match and then he'd be happy with his contract...he signed an offer sheet that was designed to make it difficult for the Avs to match and want to retain.

I don't believe that's the issue at all. I mean, if the Avs were telling him that he's no better than Jamie McGinn, then fine...I get it and would completely understand that kind of reaction but your premise lies with the fact that he's upset he's being labelled only as good as the best player on our team, when in fact that's a huge compliment. O'Reilly wasn't considered for Team Canada, in what universe would he have any right to be upset? This is more about Landeskog than it is about Duchene, in my opinion.

If you remember, it was during the lockout and contract dispute that the Avs named Landeskog captain and the very LAST GUY that any Avs fan would have figured would have been difficult to sign would have been ROR. He was offered a bridge deal that paid him as well as our best player (and more than Subban)...how is telling him we value you as much as the very best we have on our team, an apparent slap in the face???

O'Reilly had his heart set on becoming the next captain of the Avs when is was looking like Hejduk wasn't going to be brought back and when they chose to give it to a guy coming off a great rookie year, but 2 years younger he viewed THAT as a slap in the face much moreso than the absolutely fair bridge deal. Just my opinion.

So in the end, it becomes a "that's fine, I'll play here but you're going to pay a huge premium to have me on the team and when I can decide my own fate, I'll be long gone" kind of situation.

Regardless of the 'why', the end result is ROR playing for a different squad by age 25 at the very latest. We just have different opinions as to the reasoning behind it all. At some point, he will be traded and at some point, he will sign a long-term contract with THAT team (as long as it's the right situation for him) for a very FAIR wage that will give him new team flexibility to sign others and that will unquestionably have Avs fans questioning what we actually offered him to begin with.
That's a lot of speculation. It does make sense, though.

But I'm not sure ROR will sign long term anywhere soon.
I could see him being a mercenary, playing for the highest salary.
Somewhere along the line he'll get a Cup, and feel justified.

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07-15-2014, 01:59 PM
  #116
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Duchene signed his contract before the lockout season. ROR was seen as a reliable second line center (next to Duchene) and outplayed Stastny during the Lockout season. Everything you're talking about is after Duchene signed his contract. What Duchene was worth before the lockout season is not O'reilly is worth now.
Are you including his time in the KHL, and taking into consideration his holding out? Just curious...

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07-15-2014, 02:01 PM
  #117
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Which Duchene contract are we talking about? The Extension or the bridge deal?
The contract he's on right now. He signed it in the off-season before the lockout. ROR is worth more than what Duchene was prior to the lockout.

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07-15-2014, 02:02 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Sakic19Duchene9 View Post
The contract he's on right now. He signed it in the off-season before the lockout. ROR is worth more than what Duchene was prior to the lockout.
No, his new contract started July 1st. He signed it last summer, after the lockout season. The contract Duchene signed before the lockout was his bridge deal, which played a role in O'Reilly's holdout.


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07-15-2014, 02:30 PM
  #119
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The contract he's on right now. He signed it in the off-season before the lockout. ROR is worth more than what Duchene was prior to the lockout.
Duchene signed his extension a month or so before last season. Pretty much a month after Roy and Sakic were put in charge Duchene and Landeskog were given their contract extensions.

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07-15-2014, 02:38 PM
  #120
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Okay I'm wrong there about the contract. But to me it doesn't change the fact that ROR is worth at the bare minimum the same amount this past years contract.

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Are you including his time in the KHL, and taking into consideration his holding out? Just curious...
This will sound ignorant, but I don't really care what he did in the KHL. Why should his holding out bring negative value because management was too cheap to pay him.If you want to take that into consideration you also have to take into consideration that he still put up an avg of 55+ppg pace that year and earned his pay this year. You also can't ignore he's produced at a 55+ rate 3/3 of the last 3 seasons and has one 64 point season

With Stastny I sided with management to not pay him more than Duchene, although I would have been alright with them signing him for 6.6m-, but I was okay with it because i believed that he was not apart of our true core. But with ROR i believe he is our core.

In my opinion not signing him for 6.5m is worse asset management than it is cap management. Unless we get a good return for him.

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07-15-2014, 02:39 PM
  #121
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First you argue that it's obvious who our priorities are (Lando, Duchene, Varly) but then downplay anyone else making less than 6.
Of course they want to sign ROR, he's part of the core. That's not the point I'm making. Duchene snd MacKinnon are the "stars", "priority" whatever you want to call them on this team. Everyone gets wrapped up in the semantics. "Omg but ROR IS a star" and "Sakic said they are focusing on signing him". Yes. I'm not debating that but this isn't socialism, there are players that are franchise cornerstones, more important, bigger priorities, bigger stars, whatever label you want to use. I'm not interested in arguing the label. It's the you have to pay him X because you can't let him walk away argument that comes up a lot. All I'm saying is that's valid for the top tier of your players. They are not willing to hold that mindset for everyone.

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07-15-2014, 02:54 PM
  #122
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They should hold that same mindset for others since no one on this team is being paid like a true "franchise cornerstone" or "star". $6M for your top player is nothing when you look at where the salary cap is projected to be in the next few years. You can't just give O'Reilly a blank cheque but give him $6.5-7M if that's what it takes. Unfortunately, that won't happen because we have a "structure" in place.

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07-15-2014, 03:32 PM
  #123
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They should hold that same mindset for others since no one on this team is being paid like a true "franchise cornerstone" or "star". $6M for your top player is nothing when you look at where the salary cap is projected to be in the next few years. You can't just give O'Reilly a blank cheque but give him $6.5-7M if that's what it takes. Unfortunately, that won't happen because we have a "structure" in place.
And I don't think 6.5-7 will be enough if the contract is longer than 3 years.

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07-15-2014, 03:59 PM
  #124
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And I don't think 6.5-7 will be enough if the contract is longer than 3 years.
He likely wants 6.5/year for 1-3 years or 7+/year for 4+ years. Neither are going to happen and he's not worth either.

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07-15-2014, 04:27 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by tigervixxxen View Post
Of course they want to sign ROR, he's part of the core. That's not the point I'm making. Duchene snd MacKinnon are the "stars", "priority" whatever you want to call them on this team. Everyone gets wrapped up in the semantics. "Omg but ROR IS a star" and "Sakic said they are focusing on signing him". Yes. I'm not debating that but this isn't socialism, there are players that are franchise cornerstones, more important, bigger priorities, bigger stars, whatever label you want to use. I'm not interested in arguing the label. It's the you have to pay him X because you can't let him walk away argument that comes up a lot. All I'm saying is that's valid for the top tier of your players. They are not willing to hold that mindset for everyone.
You are the only one arguing labels here. First it was star. Then it's priority. Now its franchise cornerstone. My entire point is that I am almost certain the Avs value RoR the same as Duchene and whoever else you want to throw in there as a priority/star/franchise cornerstone/whatever. The way they talk about him, the way and amount (seriously, how many playoff teams had a non-franchise cornerstone play top minutes?) he was used on the ice, seems pretty obvious to me he is right up there with Duchene.

As for that post you quoted, I just found it funny you make such a big deal about Lando and Varly being one of these priorities/stars/franchise cornerstones/whatever, then when someone brings up other teams and their stars/priorities/franchise cornerstone/whatever you act like they are not that good because they make less than 6. But Varly and Lando also make less than 6. Just seems kind of contradicting.

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