HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

If the Nordiques stay in Canada and win , how does it affect Montreal?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-13-2014, 12:37 PM
  #26
Killion
Registered User
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Village
Country: Wales
Posts: 29,904
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
In my 43 years, I have never seem a rivalry as intense on every level as the Habs/Nords.
Absolutely. Beyond intense. Transcendent of "just hockey" in Quebec. Easily by far some of the best games & series Ive ever seen in over 50yrs including international play, Leaf/Habs, Bruins/Habs, Wings/Avalanche, you name it.

Killion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-14-2014, 11:32 AM
  #27
optimus2861
Registered User
 
optimus2861's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bedford NS
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,615
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
Habs could still have traded Roy to the Nords but price might have been different. Now sure its unlikely they would've wanted to but theoretically they could. Im pretty sick of this being everyone's excuse. Rival teams trades with each other.
If this link is accurate, the Canadiens only conducted a single trade with the Nordiques in their entire history, and that was before the Nordiques ever took to the ice in the NHL. So I think it's pretty safe to say that the two rivals did not deal, and Roy would not have gone to play in Quebec City in 1996.

http://www.nhltradetracker.com/user/...al_Canadiens/1

Also, the Habs have executed exactly one trade with the Bruins since 1965. No love lost there!

Final funny note: look at the trade between Montreal & Detroit in September 1962.

optimus2861 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-15-2014, 05:25 PM
  #28
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,888
vCash: 500
I am going to play this thing hypothetically. As many have said, Roy wouldn't go to Quebec almost certainly. If he doesn't you would think the Nords still find a way to improve on their goaltending. Getting an older Fuhr for instance (he was still good well into the 1990s). They've got options. They have Sakic, Forsberg, Kamensky, Nolan, etc. Definitely a good core that would have still likely won a Cup or two with another goalie other than Roy. Lots of trade bait there too.

Put it this way, if Quebec is winning Cups, the Habs fans would hate it as much as the Rangers fans hated when the Islanders did it. Maybe a chant like "Forsberg sucks" would have been born in the crowd of Canadiens fans. Who knows?

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-15-2014, 05:37 PM
  #29
BLNY
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Dartmouth, NS
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,766
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to BLNY Send a message via Yahoo to BLNY
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
If the Nordiques stayed in Canada and won the 1996 and 2001 Stanley Cup, how would it change Montreal? Would they have less fans, would there be much more pressure? Would their teams have been better?
Simply put, the Canadiens wouldn't have traded Roy to a division rival. While he might not have been the MVP that year, he put the Avs over the hump. No Roy, no cup in 1996 imo.

BLNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-15-2014, 05:46 PM
  #30
Sutter pours bourbon
katabat.bandcamp*****
 
Sutter pours bourbon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Saanichton
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,197
vCash: 500
Lots of folks seem to overlook Stephane Fiset, the Nords goalie who also was the original starter for the Avs before Roy arrived. Massively underrated in my books, was 39-17 over his last 1.5 years with the Nords/Avs before getting shipped out to LA where he got some pretty defensively porous (outside of Blake and Norstrom) Kings teams into the playoffs a few times.

With the fire-power on the Avs, and Fiset keeping his level of play as high as he started the season with, I can see the Avs winning that first cup without Roy. Guy started the season 22-6. In 2001? Not a chance, Fiset was pretty much done by then. I think he actually played a few games for MTL before calling it a career. Weird couple of years for him, go from the starter in QC to Colorado, put up a great run to start things off for this team in a new city, and then get shipped out to a post-Gretzky LA team in the middle of a rebuild... if you can call it that.

I should note that in no way am I saying "Fiset = Roy", but I don't think it's completely implausible that the 1996 Avs win it without Roy.


Last edited by Sutter pours bourbon: 07-15-2014 at 05:55 PM. Reason: words
Sutter pours bourbon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-15-2014, 05:53 PM
  #31
Sutter pours bourbon
katabat.bandcamp*****
 
Sutter pours bourbon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Saanichton
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,197
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by optimus2861 View Post
If this link is accurate, the Canadiens only conducted a single trade with the Nordiques in their entire history, and that was before the Nordiques ever took to the ice in the NHL. So I think it's pretty safe to say that the two rivals did not deal, and Roy would not have gone to play in Quebec City in 1996.

http://www.nhltradetracker.com/user/...al_Canadiens/1

Also, the Habs have executed exactly one trade with the Bruins since 1965. No love lost there!

Final funny note: look at the trade between Montreal & Detroit in September 1962.
Wow, did not realize that. That's incredible. Complete inverse of whatever secret pact Van-Fla seem to have signed.

Sutter pours bourbon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-15-2014, 06:03 PM
  #32
Killion
Registered User
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Village
Country: Wales
Posts: 29,904
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrethrills View Post
I should note that in no way am I saying "Fiset = Roy", but I don't think it's completely implausible that the 1996 Avs win it without Roy.
Ya, understood, and I think thats perfectly reasonable. Hero's are born during the Playoffs, most notably Goaltenders. Plenty of talent in the league including Fiset who couldve stepped in & stepped up their games. No question about it. Look at even a Rookie like Ken Dryden in 71. Comes out of seemingly nowhere. Totally stones Chicago. Roger Crozier with Detroit mid-60's. Sawchuk. Lots more before that era & post into the 80's, 90's & 00's.

Killion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-15-2014, 11:12 PM
  #33
Hobnobs
Pinko
 
Hobnobs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Country: Sweden
Posts: 4,992
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by optimus2861 View Post
If this link is accurate, the Canadiens only conducted a single trade with the Nordiques in their entire history, and that was before the Nordiques ever took to the ice in the NHL. So I think it's pretty safe to say that the two rivals did not deal, and Roy would not have gone to play in Quebec City in 1996.

http://www.nhltradetracker.com/user/...al_Canadiens/1

Also, the Habs have executed exactly one trade with the Bruins since 1965. No love lost there!

Final funny note: look at the trade between Montreal & Detroit in September 1962.
Yet, Real Madrid bought Figo from Barcelona. It was a record transfer tho so while Roy to Nords might've highly unlikely its not an impossiblity.

Hobnobs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-16-2014, 01:21 AM
  #34
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,335
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
Yet, Real Madrid bought Figo from Barcelona. It was a record transfer tho so while Roy to Nords might've highly unlikely its not an impossiblity.
If we were talking about a middling star or plugger then maybe there's a slight chance but we're talking about Patrick Roy.

Please just take it from those of us that were around at the time and experienced the Habs/Nords rivalry first hand.


Last edited by Killion: 07-17-2014 at 10:47 AM. Reason: take it easy...
Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-16-2014, 01:37 AM
  #35
The Panther
Registered User
 
The Panther's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Country: Japan
Posts: 3,821
vCash: 500
Keep in mind Roy was traded in late 1995. The Habs/Nords thing wasn't nearly as intense by then as it had been 10 years earlier.

While trading Roy to Quebec certainly wouldn't have been any of the principles' first choice, I also don't think it was completely impossible. If it had worked out in what each side thought was its interest, then it could have happened.

It strikes me as more likely than, say, Gretzky suddenly being sold to the Kings!

The Panther is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-16-2014, 01:42 AM
  #36
Hobnobs
Pinko
 
Hobnobs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Country: Sweden
Posts: 4,992
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
If we were talking about a middling star or plugger then maybe there's a slight chance but we're talking about Patrick Roy.
Heisenbergs uncertainty principle still proves you wrong. People said the same thing about a transfer between Barcelona and Real Madrid but transfers happened between them and thats a rivalry thats lasted about a 100 years and is rooted in geopolitics and dictatorship.

The fact is that if Nords offered the moon to habs for Roy, habs wouldve taken it. So I say it again. Its not a likely trade but far from impossible.


Last edited by Killion: 07-17-2014 at 10:48 AM. Reason: quoted edited passages...
Hobnobs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-16-2014, 02:27 AM
  #37
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,335
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
Heisenbergs uncertainty principle still proves you wrong. People said the same thing about a transfer between Barcelona and Real Madrid but transfers happened between them and thats a rivalry thats lasted about a 100 years and is rooted in geopolitics and dictatorship.... The fact is that if Nords offered the moon to habs for Roy, habs wouldve taken it. So I say it again. Its not a likely trade but far from impossible.
Nope! You're wrong in this case.
It's the equivalent of trading a player of the level of Maradona or a Pele in their prime between Barcelona and RM and THAT would never happen.

It's a call that never EVER gets made in the first place.

A lower tier player or even an English player then we can enter your realm of slight possibility but a French player or a player of Roy's caliber...NEVER!!!!


Last edited by Killion: 07-17-2014 at 10:50 AM. Reason: quted edits, not neccessary...
Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-16-2014, 06:25 AM
  #38
tony d
Real Super Mario
 
tony d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Behind A Tree
Country: Canada
Posts: 51,523
vCash: 500
Yeah, the Habs would never have traded Roy to the Nords. No way no how. I think if the Nords had stayed Roy would have went to Detroit and in the summer of 1997 the Nords would have signed Ed Belfour as a free agent. Think that with all the talent on the team the Nords would have won a Cup in the late 90's. (Maybe 1999 ahead of Dallas)

__________________
tony d is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-16-2014, 10:36 PM
  #39
Mr. Fancy Pants
Registered User
 
Mr. Fancy Pants's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Gifu
Country: Japan
Posts: 363
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Panther View Post
Keep in mind Roy was traded in late 1995. The Habs/Nords thing wasn't nearly as intense by then as it had been 10 years earlier.

While trading Roy to Quebec certainly wouldn't have been any of the principles' first choice, I also don't think it was completely impossible. If it had worked out in what each side thought was its interest, then it could have happened.

It strikes me as more likely than, say, Gretzky suddenly being sold to the Kings!
I think a better comparison is the likelihood of the Oilers trading/selling Gretzky to the Flames.

Roy to Quebec never would have happened. I don't understand why it's so difficult to see this.

Mr. Fancy Pants is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-17-2014, 12:31 AM
  #40
Hobnobs
Pinko
 
Hobnobs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Country: Sweden
Posts: 4,992
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tony d View Post
Yeah, the Habs would never have traded Roy to the Nords. No way no how. I think if the Nords had stayed Roy would have went to Detroit and in the summer of 1997 the Nords would have signed Ed Belfour as a free agent. Think that with all the talent on the team the Nords would have won a Cup in the late 90's. (Maybe 1999 ahead of Dallas)
To

Peter Forsberg
Owen Nolan
Jocelyn Thibault
Andrei Kovalenko
Five 1st round picks
$100 000 000

To Nords
Roy

You still think they say no because of principles? I dont. If nords would do it is another question, Im jsut saying its not an impossible notion.

Hobnobs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-17-2014, 12:51 AM
  #41
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,335
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
To

Peter Forsberg
Owen Nolan
Jocelyn Thibault
Andrei Kovalenko
Five 1st round picks
$100 000 000

To Nords
Roy

You still think they say no because of principles? I dont. If nords would do it is another question, Im jsut saying its not an impossible notion.

First off, Nolan had already been traded to the Sharks earlier in the season.
Second, the Nords weren't capable of coming up with anything even remotely close to $100,000,000. They were losing money as it was, hence the move to Colorado in the first place eh.
Third, this proposal is not based on anything even remotely close to reality, just like your notion that Roy could have been traded to the Nords in the first place.

{Mod}


Last edited by Killion: 07-17-2014 at 10:51 AM.
Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-17-2014, 01:38 AM
  #42
The Panther
Registered User
 
The Panther's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Country: Japan
Posts: 3,821
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Fancy Pants View Post
Roy to Quebec never would have happened. I don't understand why it's so difficult to see this.
Probably because it could have happened. NHL trading precedent clearly proves that big-stars from rival teams can be traded for each other. The imagined position from which you're forming your iron-clad conclusion has no basis in reality, precedent, or logic.

Of course, I'm aware -- and have already stated -- that the Nords/Canadiens didn't particularly want to trade good players to one another, which lessen the likelihood of such a blockbuster trade occurring. But since this thread asks us to consider an imagined/fictional scenario, why then shouldn't we apply the same imagined scenario to a potential Roy trade to Quebec? The fact is, if the trade bait were good enough, one or both sides would have gone for it.

I realize, in some people's blue-sky worlds, bitter rivals in sports put team-rivalry before money and winning, but in reality it doesn't work that way.

The Panther is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-17-2014, 02:50 AM
  #43
Hobnobs
Pinko
 
Hobnobs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Country: Sweden
Posts: 4,992
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
First off, Nolan had already been traded to the Sharks earlier in the season.
Second, the Nords weren't capable of coming up with anything even remotely close to $100,000,000. They were losing money as it was, hence the move to Colorado in the first place eh.
Third, this proposal is not based on anything even remotely close to reality, just like your notion that Roy could have been traded to the Nords in the first place.
We are currently discussing a fantasy scenario where nords never left AND won the cup so its reasonable that they have the money. True Nolan was traded so switch him for someone else. Its still an offer habs would take even if you remove the money.


Last edited by Killion: 07-17-2014 at 10:53 AM. Reason: quoted edited passages...
Hobnobs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-17-2014, 08:23 AM
  #44
bigbuffalo313
Registered User
 
bigbuffalo313's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New York
Country: United States
Posts: 3,865
vCash: 500
I wasn't even alive when the Roy trade happened and I even know a Montreal-Quebec trade would never happen unless the players are Stu Bickel quality

bigbuffalo313 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-17-2014, 10:26 AM
  #45
Mad Habber
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,718
vCash: 500
The Habs forced Guy Lafleur into retirement rather than trade him and see him play for another team. They did this on principle alone. Guy should not play for another team. They didn't do the same to Roy, but if anyone thinks they would have traded Roy to Quebec, well then they are delusional. And making up a fantasy trade with half the team and a pile of cash the Nordiques didn't have going the other way does not make this real. Fantasy does not prove reality.

When Roy demanded a trade, he asked to be traded to Colorado. Houle only negotiated with that one team. Roy would've never asked to be traded to Quebec because he knew it would never happen. There was no way Montreal wanted to send him to their most hated rival and play him 8 times a year and take the chance to be bounced out of the playoffs by Roy every year for the next 10 years or so. This is a team that fired a competent GM and coaching staff and replaced them with a bunch of incompetents with a bunch of Stanley Cup rings, thinking that was enough to motivate the players. And it was still the same guy in charge of the Lafleur thing pulling the strings. Ronald Corey.

Mad Habber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-17-2014, 11:01 AM
  #46
Killion
Registered User
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Village
Country: Wales
Posts: 29,904
vCash: 500
Warning

This is fantasy scenario & no need for vitriol & condescension. This is a "discussion", this is a "chat board", not a "debate board". Discussion is always better than argument. Argument is to find out who is right. Discussion is to find out what is right. In this case, what is possible while considering the improbable.

Carry on...

Killion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-17-2014, 01:06 PM
  #47
optimus2861
Registered User
 
optimus2861's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bedford NS
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,615
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Panther View Post
I realize, in some people's blue-sky worlds, bitter rivals in sports put team-rivalry before money and winning, but in reality it doesn't work that way.
Except in reality, for Montreal & Quebec, it did work exactly that way. The evidence says the two teams never conducted so much as a single trade from the moment the Nordiques set foot on an NHL ice surface. Edmonton & Calgary didn't deal during their rivalry heyday either. Montreal & Boston still almost never deal to this day. Even the Rangers and their New York brethren; they've executed just one minor trade with the Islanders in the last 40 years, and they've never executed a trade with the Devils (the Isles & Devils don't have the same hangup about dealing with each other, though).

Some NHL rivalries do seem to run that deep.

optimus2861 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-17-2014, 01:17 PM
  #48
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,337
vCash: 500
Seems that many Canadiens fans has forgotten that Montreal was also involved in the Lindros dealings and a package involving Roy was offered. They also seem to have forgotten that a lot of Canadiens fans wanted Roy traded prior to the '93 season.

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-17-2014, 02:22 PM
  #49
Mad Habber
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,718
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Seems that many Canadiens fans has forgotten that Montreal was also involved in the Lindros dealings and a package involving Roy was offered. They also seem to have forgotten that a lot of Canadiens fans wanted Roy traded prior to the '93 season.
But it still not a trade is it.

Mad Habber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-17-2014, 03:53 PM
  #50
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,337
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Habber View Post
But it still not a trade is it.
The argument were that Habs would never trade Roy to the Nords. Yet they offered him for Lindros so. I'm not sure what you are ralking about.

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:31 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2016 All Rights Reserved.