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Old
07-13-2014, 02:46 PM
  #101
Jester9881
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Originally Posted by janecky View Post
Grabner is not particularly good defensively, BTW. I don't know where people get that idea from. I think people are too easily blinded by speed. Grabner is good on the PK because his speed is a major threat, but he's a featherweight and his reads are nothing special, so he really isn't a particularly good defensive forward. His speed just makes it possible for him to recover. He lives and dies by his speed.
You contradict yourself a couple times here. You say he isn't good on D.... but then he is because of his speed... but he isn't because he's small and has bad reads (false) then go on to say, again that his speed makes him good.

If his reads are so bad.... how does he generate all those SH breakaways? Why did he lead the league in SHG two years I believe? You obviously do not watch the Islanders.

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07-13-2014, 02:46 PM
  #102
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It was not meant to offend...as we both tend to be on similar pages on players. But clearly we are not in regards to Grossmann. Three years ago when he joined Philly he was great. 2years ago, he paired with Coburn in a shutdown role and was great...except that neither show any offense. Last year, he had injuries to his shoulder and ankle. And I said...he played poorly.

And IMO, only 3 guys on the NYI D are better than Grossmann.

And that's where we disagree.

Dude, I know you are not trying to offend. You're a good guy, and a great poster. I have tons of respect for your thinking. I just don't like this particularly thread, but its oK for cyber-friends to disagree.

Vish, Hamonic, and CDH are all world's better than Grossman.

I am confident that Reinhart will be as well.

I would even take the underrated Hickey over Grossman.

So, I would say that you are not being realistic with that assessment.

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07-13-2014, 02:48 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Jester9881 View Post
You do when your need for defensive forwards are greater than your need for offensive forwards. Grabner is one of the Islanders best defensive forwards, and never showed any chemistry with JT.... so he was used in a defensive role alongside a forward he did show chemistry with (Nielsen).

I know you don't watch the Islanders.... but after pointing out two times in this thread, you would think people would simply look at the numbers and come to the same conclusions. Grabner takes on tough competition and gets the bulk of defensive zone starts. Not sure why we're even still debating this.
Ok...that's fair. We know what that is like with Read and Couturier. But another poster mentioned he was not good defensively...hence the confusion.

And again, for me in making this tread, I was looking to add a 3rd line guy who can play on the shutdown line and add speed to a team that needs it.

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07-13-2014, 02:49 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
It says that 2 of the NYI top guys are 2nd pairing guys in Philly and play well when not misused.
No.... it says that two guys that got played off the Islanders roster by better players, are now top guys on Philly's roster. Two guys that were part of the Islanders D that was so pathetic according to other posters.

Just another example of the double standard around here. Every Islander player is garbage, until they're a UFA....

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07-13-2014, 02:50 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
Ok...that's fair. We know what that is like with Read and Couturier. But another poster mentioned he was not good defensively...hence the confusion.

And again, for me in making this tread, I was looking to add a 3rd line guy who can play on the shutdown line and add speed to a team that needs it.
And that poster couldn't be more wrong. Grabner is one of the Islanders best defensive forwards.

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07-13-2014, 02:53 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Dude, I know you are not trying to offend. You're a good guy, and a great poster. I have tons of respect for your thinking. I just don't like this particularly thread, but its oK for cyber-friends to disagree.

Vish, Hamonic, and CDH are all world's better than Grossman.

I am confident that Reinhart will be as well.

I would even take the underrated Hickey over Grossman.

So, I would say that you are not being realistic with that assessment.
Those were the 3 that I have above him as well.

Reinhart will be...not sure if it will be in the next year though.

As for Hickey, maybe I am under estimating him. But he certainly isn't clearly better than Grossmann.

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07-13-2014, 02:54 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by FanHabtic View Post
But that is no where as impactful as a team with true top pairing Dmen losing one of their 25minute/game guys.

Coburn playing top pairing minutes does not make him top pairing. Josh Gorges played in the top pairing with Subban but that did not make him a top pairing guy. A top guy like Subban can take a middle pairing guy like Gorges/Coburn and make them respectable on the top pair.

But this only hammers the point the Flyers D is in fact abysmal if Coburn is the difference between playoffs and non-playoffs. That is unacceptable. Trade Simmonds and Couts and try to get a #1 guy.

Further, waiting on youth is a slow process. Very few have a meteoric rise like Subban. Young D with high potential hit their stride in their mid 20's.
The difference between a bubble playoff team making and missing the playoffs IS a number 2 defenseman, that doesn't make everyone else abysmal.

Trading away Simmonds and Couts would be an awful move for the team. Couturier is the best PK'er the team has and will be a selke winner in a few years. Laughton can't fill his shoes and go toe to toe with Crosby/Tavares. Giroux's ES numbers would go down because he would have to take on the burden of going against top lines. Flyers already lost Hartsy from the first PP unit, moving Simmonds would be a huge blow.

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07-13-2014, 02:57 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Jester9881 View Post
No.... it says that two guys that got played off the Islanders roster by better players, are now top guys on Philly's roster. Two guys that were part of the Islanders D that was so pathetic according to other posters.

Just another example of the double standard around here. Every Islander player is garbage, until they're a UFA....
Lol...um...no.

Go look when Streit was becoming a UFA. He was regarded as the best UFA dman available.

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07-13-2014, 03:00 PM
  #109
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http://islanderspointblank.com/islan...akes-no-sense/

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07-13-2014, 03:02 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
Lol...um...no.

Go look when Streit was becoming a UFA. He was regarded as the best UFA dman available.
Going on his offense and the overall bias against the Islanders. On the defensive side of the puck, Streit was out played by no fewer than 4 defensemen. We would have welcomed him back, but not for what he signed for, and not as anything more than a PP specialist.

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07-13-2014, 03:10 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Jester9881 View Post
Going on his offense and the overall bias against the Islanders. On the defensive side of the puck, Streit was out played by no fewer than 4 defensemen. We would have welcomed him back, but not for what he signed for, and not as anything more than a PP specialist.
But I think that common sense can show you that all teams are not equal, and how you play on one team, is not the same on another.

Ask any Flyers fan, and if they are honest, this is what they will tell you:
Streit started off very bad for Philly and most fans were saying that the NYI fans were right in their assessment. Then he started playing well and most fans wanted him to be getting more PP time instead of Kimmo. His play at ES was a pleasant surprise based on what NYI fans had said.

Hell...he finished 10th in the league in ES points and was a +3. He added some much needed offense and puck movement from backend. He was what I and others had hoped for.

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07-13-2014, 03:18 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
But I think that common sense can show you that all teams are not equal, and how you play on one team, is not the same on another.

Ask any Flyers fan, and if they are honest, this is what they will tell you:
Streit started off very bad for Philly and most fans were saying that the NYI fans were right in their assessment. Then he started playing well and most fans wanted him to be getting more PP time instead of Kimmo. His play at ES was a pleasant surprise based on what NYI fans had said.

Hell...he finished 10th in the league in ES points and was a +3. He added some much needed offense and puck movement from backend. He was what I and others had hoped for.
Like I said, we would have welcomed Streit back... but again, you're using offensive production as your argument. The Islanders offense was and is fine.... it's been the defense (mainly depth) and especially goaltending that has held them back.

Maybe those two are great for Philly...

But Hamonic, de Haan, Hickey, Visnovsky and Reinhart are all better options for the Islanders than Streit or AMac. That isn't speculation, because that was the case when those guys were actually here too.

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07-13-2014, 03:19 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Jester9881 View Post
You contradict yourself a couple times here. You say he isn't good on D.... but then he is because of his speed... but he isn't because he's small and has bad reads (false) then go on to say, again that his speed makes him good.

If his reads are so bad.... how does he generate all those SH breakaways? Why did he lead the league in SHG two years I believe? You obviously do not watch the Islanders.
There is no contradiction at all. I was talking about the defensive game in general, not reactions when the puck is close. We already know he's quick. I'm sorry you're hurt ("you obviously do not watch") by my comments, but I don't invest my opinions about this with emotions. It's just observations.

I like my defensive forwards to be like smart chess players. Grabner is a player that reacts. He can steal the puck in neutral zone by sneaking close quickly with his speed, but he's not good at defending players off the puck or guiding the play. It's just not his game at all. He doesn't control the flow, he reacts. Good defense is about being in control. I also didn't say his reads were bad per se, I said there was nothing special about them.

PK is not really about defense in general. It's a game within a game, and a forward doesn't have to be a good defensive forward to be useful there. It seems to me you are only focusing on situations where the puck is there and Grabner is reacting to the puck. Take away the puck and then look at Grabner playing defense. That is, instead of following the puck, pay attention to what Grabner does when the other team has the puck but it's nowhere near him. As I said, he can recover to a degree with his speed, but he's not good at defending. He tries, but it's a weakness. I think he's a valuable niche player, though.

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07-13-2014, 03:26 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by janecky View Post
There is no contradiction at all. I was talking about the defensive game in general, not reactions when the puck is close. We already know he's quick. I'm sorry you're hurt ("you obviously do not watch") by my comments, but I don't invest my opinions about this with emotions. It's just observations.

I like my defensive forwards to be like smart chess players. Grabner is a player that reacts. He can steal the puck in neutral zone by sneaking close quickly with his speed, but he's not good at defending players off the puck or guiding the play. It's just not his game at all. He doesn't control the flow, he reacts. Good defense is about being in control. I also didn't say his reads were bad per se, I said there was nothing special about them.

PK is not really about defense in general. It's a game within a game, and a forward doesn't have to be a good defensive forward to be useful there. It seems to me you are only focusing on situations where the puck is there and Grabner is reacting to the puck. Take away the puck and then look at Grabner playing defense. That is, instead of following the puck, pay attention to what Grabner does when the other team has the puck but it's nowhere near him. As I said, he can recover to a degree with his speed, but he's not good at defending. He tries, but it's a weakness. I think he's a valuable niche player, though.
Read the link I posted. Believe what you want, I'm not going to argue this any more.... I've watched every single one of this guys games for the past 4 years.

If he were a UFA tomorrow, teams (and fans here) would be falling over themselves to put him in their top 6. But alas, he's an Islander.... so people think he's crap.

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07-13-2014, 03:58 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Jester9881 View Post
Read the link I posted. Believe what you want, I'm not going to argue this any more.... I've watched every single one of this guys games for the past 4 years.

If he were a UFA tomorrow, teams (and fans here) would be falling over themselves to put him in their top 6. But alas, he's an Islander.... so people think he's crap.
Um...not seeing people say he's crap at all. I know I certainly have not said so. I would want him on our "shutdown line" but really...that line gets 2nd line minutes. So how is that saying he is crap?

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07-13-2014, 06:15 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Jester9881 View Post
Going on his offense and the overall bias against the Islanders. On the defensive side of the puck, Streit was out played by no fewer than 4 defensemen. We would have welcomed him back, but not for what he signed for, and not as anything more than a PP specialist.
For a PP specialist he did very well considering he was playing with a "6/7" defenseman for most of the season.

10th in the league in ES points.

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07-13-2014, 07:28 PM
  #117
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Now this is good. BRB going to make some popcorn.
He said in a package for as in grabner would be included with other prospects/players.

Im not sure why you would need popcorn almost every Islander fan that has posted has agreed that he would be a throw in for most top pairing defenseman trades.

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07-13-2014, 08:17 PM
  #118
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As an Islanders fan I'm surprised at the Streit bashing.

We let him walk because he wanted too much for too long and was coming off a poor season (defensively). Figured he'd be a 6 or 7 by the time of his 3rd, 4th and 5th seasons.

I still think Philly may regret the signing in seasons 4 and 5 but for the first 3 they'll be very happy.

Snow reportedly offered 3 yrs / 12 mill. If he had resigned and had the same amount of points he had with Philly this year the Islanders board would be jumping for joy.

MacDonald however, was not good defensively or offensively. Remains to be seen if he'll do better with less minutes but he was indeed one of the worst defensemen in the league last year (though he logged many minutes for him).

I'm happy he got his money though. He deserved it after his last contract was such a bargain for us.

On topic, I don't know anything about Grossman other than he appears not to be the top 4 the Islanders want and need.

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07-13-2014, 08:47 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Pure Slaughter Value View Post
As an Islanders fan I'm surprised at the Streit bashing.

We let him walk because he wanted too much for too long and was coming off a poor season (defensively). Figured he'd be a 6 or 7 by the time of his 3rd, 4th and 5th seasons.

I still think Philly may regret the signing in seasons 4 and 5 but for the first 3 they'll be very happy.

Snow reportedly offered 3 yrs / 12 mill. If he had resigned and had the same amount of points he had with Philly this year the Islanders board would be jumping for joy.

MacDonald however, was not good defensively or offensively. Remains to be seen if he'll do better with less minutes but he was indeed one of the worst defensemen in the league last year (though he logged many minutes for him).

I'm happy he got his money though. He deserved it after his last contract was such a bargain for us.

On topic, I don't know anything about Grossman other than he appears not to be the top 4 the Islanders want and need.
One slight correction...Streit only signed for 4 years. So if we get 3 good, and 1 poor season out of him..not too bad.

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07-13-2014, 08:55 PM
  #120
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Nah. No need for the Flyers to 'add a smudge'. Isles are not taking a #6/#7 defenseman, adding him to their top 4 and pretending it's an upgrade.
As a Flyers fan, I completely agree with you. Especially with Grossmann coming off an injury.

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07-13-2014, 08:57 PM
  #121
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Grossmann for a bit was a real top 4 dman. No offense, but very solid in his own end. Then, he got concussed by Malkin and ever since he's been more like a 5/6 guy. Maybe he can bounce back, but right now he's not worth Grabner.

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07-13-2014, 10:05 PM
  #122
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I agree that many Isles fans over value Grabner. Not by a heck of a lot, but they do. The only reason it seems like these guys are over valuing him so much is because Grossman is the return. It's not so much Grabner being over valued but Isle fans definitely don't need another Jurcina/Eaton/Carkner retread like Grossman. It's the last thing the Isles are going to trade roster players for. We could go out and sign Morris and he would be just as valuable as Grossman (not valuable at all). So, yeah, they are over valuing Grabner a little but Grossman is negative value.

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07-13-2014, 10:24 PM
  #123
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I agree that many Isles fans over value Grabner. Not by a heck of a lot, but they do. The only reason it seems like these guys are over valuing him so much is because Grossman is the return. It's not so much Grabner being over valued but Isle fans definitely don't need another Jurcina/Eaton/Carkner retread like Grossman. It's the last thing the Isles are going to trade roster players for. We could go out and sign Morris and he would be just as valuable as Grossman (not valuable at all). So, yeah, they are over valuing Grabner a little but Grossman is negative value.
See...that is the issue. Grossmann is far from negative value. Funny how people turn on a guy when he tries to play while being hurt and struggles. If healthy, he is a #4. If he plays like last year, he is a #5/6. But he still has value.

Funny how we hear that Streit is garbage, MacD was one of the worst dmen in the league, Schenn is a cap dump, Coburn is a #3/4 guy, Kimmo is done, and Grossmann has negative value. So really...we have 1 guy who could made the NYI. Yet somehow we made the playoffs. Cool.

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07-14-2014, 02:52 AM
  #124
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Grossmann is a strictly defensive top-4 D who comes with a big body, blocks shots, and plays the PK. His style of play is wearing him down which is what was holding him back last season.

Most teams have a need for such a player but the common trend in the league goes more towards mobile allround defensemen. It's a hard sell unless the Flyers can find a team that is officially looking to get bigger and tougher back there.

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07-14-2014, 03:49 AM
  #125
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Grabner for Grossmann.

How close is this?

The NYI are looking to add a top 4 dman and have extra F and their fans often list Grabner and Bailey as the 2 most likely to move.
Philly can use the speed on the wings and his PK ability.
Salaries are within 500,000 of each other.
Both UFA's in 2 years.

Grossmann gives the NYI some veteran leadership on the backend and sacrifices his body to help the team win games. He played over half of last year injured as he wore a boot when not playing. But was willing to play thru the pain to try and help get the team back after a bad start. The year before, he was great for Philly.

Grabner is not that 34 goal scorer from 4 years ago. Last year he had 12 goals and 26 points. Would like to see him on a shutdown line with Couturier and Read.

Thoughts?
Gross, man.

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