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2014 - 2015 New York Rangers :: Roster building / proposal thread Part II

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Old
07-18-2014, 05:37 AM
  #51
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I see Zucc/Brass getting a combined cap hit of slightly above 8 M
Kreider/Moore under 4 M

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07-18-2014, 05:48 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by UAGoalieGuy View Post
Because Drouin does have more value? No injury history like Staal. Not 1 year away from UFA. Cost controlled for at least the next 3 years to a team that is currently up against the cap.

Not to mention his enormous potential. You will not find a GM in the game would trade Drouin for Staal.
Ooo "potential!"

Christian Dube had potential.
Pavel Brendl had potential.

Ooo "cost controlled!"

Raphael Diaz is cost controlled.
I am cost controlled (I'd play for free).

Potential value has nothing on proven value.

Now, do I think Drouin is going to bust like Dube and Brendl?

Of course not. That's why I'd trade a very proven Marc Staal for him, on the risk that his "potential" can be realized at the NHL level.

However, as of right now, Drouin has proved nothing more than he can dominate other KIDS (his age and younger) in a junior league. At 5'11" there are always concerns that he may not adjust the same way to the bigger, faster, stronger, harder professional level against actual MEN.

I shouldn't have to tell you how many 5'11" 170 lb prospects absolutely dominated the QMJHL and never made a peep at the NHL level. Just because of his draft position, that doesn't mean we're trading a young Crosby or Stamkos (players who didnt go back to juniors in their first year of eligibility because they MADE THEIR NHL CLUBS at 18.)

If Staal had more term on his deal, he'd have a lot more value. Because he's not signed past this season, the value is fairly even IMO.

Not to mention:


Tampa seems to be loading up for a run (Yzerman probably realizes that if Tampa doesn't at least appear to be heading towards contention, Stamkos will be gone in a couple years.)

I could very well see Staal moved for Drouin under the right circumstances.

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Old
07-18-2014, 06:01 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeventySeven View Post
I can't believe you think a player who's never played in the NHL has more value than Marc Staal, contract or no contract.
Let's offer Glass for Drouin then. Glass played in the NHL last year too. He's even cost controlled for the next 3 years

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07-18-2014, 06:35 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UAGoalieGuy View Post
Because Drouin does have more value? No injury history like Staal. Not 1 year away from UFA. Cost controlled for at least the next 3 years to a team that is currently up against the cap.

Not to mention his enormous potential. You will not find a GM in the game would trade Drouin for Staal.
Just like you wouldn't find a GM in the league to trade Scott Gomez for Ryan McDonagh +, right?

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07-18-2014, 06:51 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by KOVALEV022473 View Post
Just like you wouldn't find a GM in the league to trade Scott Gomez for Ryan McDonagh +, right?
Exception not the rule.

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Old
07-18-2014, 06:53 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV022473 View Post
Just like you wouldn't find a GM in the league to trade Scott Gomez for Ryan McDonagh +, right?
At the time of the trade McD was actually looked at as not developing his offensive game to Montreal's liking. Also McD was no where near as highly touted as Drouin.

Nice try though, comparing apples or oranges there.

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07-18-2014, 07:11 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by KOVALEV022473 View Post
Just like you wouldn't find a GM in the league to trade Scott Gomez for Ryan McDonagh +, right?
You know transactions don't happen in a Vacuum right?

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07-18-2014, 07:19 AM
  #58
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Guess we can just ship Staal for the 1st overall next year because McDavid only has potential.

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07-18-2014, 07:21 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by nyrangers1472 View Post
Guess we can just ship Staal for the 1st overall next year because McDavid only has potential.
Phil Kessel and Tyler Seguin say hi.

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07-18-2014, 07:27 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeventySeven View Post
Phil Kessel and Tyler Seguin say hi.
Common sense comes into the room and knocks both of them out.


The Vacuum does not exist.

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07-18-2014, 07:53 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffMangum View Post
Trxjw

I don't know if I'd consider Brassard to Wilson a downgrade. But, then again, I am not a big Brassard fan. I'll take Wilson's cheaper contract and added size over Brassard's PP prowess.
Wilson is a very significant downgrade to Brassard.

Cheaper contract, yes. Bigger player, yes.

Brassard more than makes up for it with the much better offensive game.

Wilson has been given every opportunity to take over a #2 center spot in Nashville and has not been able to get the job done. The fact that the Preds decided that he was so good, they went out and added two guys that even during bad seasons, they are better than Wilson.

He got no PP run and was regularly the 4th set of PK'ers at the forward position.

Wilson is Pouliot, Puliot is Wilson

Wilson at 2 per is solid, but you get one year of that from him and he's going to be looking for numbers closer to 4 million.

For what we get from Brassard, I perfer that player over Wilson every time.

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07-18-2014, 07:56 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ail View Post
Exception not the rule.
I agree. However, this was directed at the posters whom, so often, speak in absolutes.

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Old
07-18-2014, 07:58 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyrvana View Post
If Dubinsky got 5.85. Brassard is definitely worth that value wise.
Not sure I understand.

Dubi is a much better player than Brassard.

plays the PP, PK, ES, plays physically, is more of a leader.

Dubi spends more time in the box and scores more points.

I prefer Brassard at 4.5 than Dubi at 5.85, but there's a reason one is going to get in the mid to high 4's and the other got almost 6 per.

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07-18-2014, 08:10 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeventySeven View Post
UFA deals should not and will not have any impact on Brassard's RFA contract.

Berglund at 3.7 was a great comparable.

Tyler Ennis's new deal is bad news, however.

I still maintain that Brassard ends up getting 3.9 on a multi-year deal.
disagree.

Brassard is and has been the superior offensive talent.

Berglund is inconsistent. Could get 40+, more likely to get 30+

Brassard will get 4+ from the arbiter. He's a consistent 40+ point scoring 2nd line center.

48th in scoring amongst all centers this past year

37th in 2012-13

54th in 2011-12

41st in 2010-11

in the last 4 years (a very good sample size) Brassard ranks 45th of all centers in the NHL.

If that's not a 2nd line center, I don't know what one should look like.

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07-18-2014, 08:12 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeventySeven View Post
Phil Kessel and Tyler Seguin say hi.
Kessel was traded for two 1sts and a 2nd before the draft slots were even known. Toronto stinking and moving into 2nd overall is what netted the Bruins 2nd overall, Dinkleberg. Nice try.

I would trade Mcdonagh for Drouin if Tampa asked. Drouin has Messier potential and would almost "guarantee" us a future Cup with this roster. Give Brassard and Zucc their money, play hardball with Kreider until he caves into wanting to play for a soon to be champion, and go get it.

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07-18-2014, 08:14 AM
  #66
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My projections for opening day with what we have to work with at the current moment is as follows.

Kreider-Stepan-Nash
Zucc-Brass-MSL
Hags-Miller-Lombardi
Glass-Moore-Haggerty

Girardi-McD
Staal-Boyle
Moore-Klein

Obviously where we have gotten weaker is the 4th line right now. Zucc deserves 2nd line minutes and is Brass a bonafide 2nd line C, well unfortunately right now he's the only one who can fill that void. Is he as good or better than Richards, I think so. The third line can very well equal the numbers from last years 3rd line pairing. It will be about puck possession and using the outside speed that line will have with Hags and Lombardi who is a center but can play the wing. If he is healthy he can come in and easily replace Pouliot. Again my main concern is the 4th line, I think Moore will find it a very frustrating and long season skating between Glass and Haggerty.

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Old
07-18-2014, 08:15 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeventySeven View Post
Ooo "potential!"

Christian Dube had potential.
Pavel Brendl had potential.

Ooo "cost controlled!"

Raphael Diaz is cost controlled.
I am cost controlled (I'd play for free).

Potential value has nothing on proven value.

Now, do I think Drouin is going to bust like Dube and Brendl?

Of course not. That's why I'd trade a very proven Marc Staal for him, on the risk that his "potential" can be realized at the NHL level.

However, as of right now, Drouin has proved nothing more than he can dominate other KIDS (his age and younger) in a junior league. At 5'11" there are always concerns that he may not adjust the same way to the bigger, faster, stronger, harder professional level against actual MEN.

I shouldn't have to tell you how many 5'11" 170 lb prospects absolutely dominated the QMJHL and never made a peep at the NHL level. Just because of his draft position, that doesn't mean we're trading a young Crosby or Stamkos (players who didnt go back to juniors in their first year of eligibility because they MADE THEIR NHL CLUBS at 18.)

If Staal had more term on his deal, he'd have a lot more value. Because he's not signed past this season, the value is fairly even IMO.

Not to mention:


Tampa seems to be loading up for a run (Yzerman probably realizes that if Tampa doesn't at least appear to be heading towards contention, Stamkos will be gone in a couple years.)

I could very well see Staal moved for Drouin under the right circumstances.
In your opinion.

Most GM's in the world would disagree. The others that agree with you are no longer employed.

For good reason.

Oilers need D, they haven't traded Yakupov for that spot yet. Why is that?

Because the POTENTIAL that Yak carries far outweighs what they could get in a proven player.

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07-18-2014, 08:25 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeventySeven View Post
Ooo "potential!"

Christian Dube had potential.
Pavel Brendl had potential.

Ooo "cost controlled!"

Raphael Diaz is cost controlled.
I am cost controlled (I'd play for free).

Potential value has nothing on proven value.

Now, do I think Drouin is going to bust like Dube and Brendl?

Of course not. That's why I'd trade a very proven Marc Staal for him, on the risk that his "potential" can be realized at the NHL level.

However, as of right now, Drouin has proved nothing more than he can dominate other KIDS (his age and younger) in a junior league. At 5'11" there are always concerns that he may not adjust the same way to the bigger, faster, stronger, harder professional level against actual MEN.

I shouldn't have to tell you how many 5'11" 170 lb prospects absolutely dominated the QMJHL and never made a peep at the NHL level. Just because of his draft position, that doesn't mean we're trading a young Crosby or Stamkos (players who didnt go back to juniors in their first year of eligibility because they MADE THEIR NHL CLUBS at 18.)

If Staal had more term on his deal, he'd have a lot more value. Because he's not signed past this season, the value is fairly even IMO.

Not to mention:


Tampa seems to be loading up for a run (Yzerman probably realizes that if Tampa doesn't at least appear to be heading towards contention, Stamkos will be gone in a couple years.)

I could very well see Staal moved for Drouin under the right circumstances.
Brendl did have value and he was taken high in the draft...there were a lot of "proven" guys out there for which that #1 pick would not have been given up, even before knowing who it would be. Crosby was taken at #1. Was he "proven" or did e have potential? I'd say potential since there were overall #1 picks that really didn't pan-out and it would have taken some nice value on the "proven" side for PITT to give up that pick. Potential value does have something on proven in many situations. Sure, you wouldn't trade Sidney Crosby today for a kid who hasn't stepped on the NHL ice who has Crosby potential. You might trade a Brassard for a kid who has one green year in the league but looks like he could be Crosby in a few years.

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07-18-2014, 08:26 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Broadway Hat View Post
Kessel was traded for two 1sts and a 2nd before the draft slots were even known. Toronto stinking and moving into 2nd overall is what netted the Bruins 2nd overall, Dinkleberg. Nice try.

I would trade Mcdonagh for Drouin if Tampa asked. Drouin has Messier potential and would almost "guarantee" us a future Cup with this roster. Give Brassard and Zucc their money, play hardball with Kreider until he caves into wanting to play for a soon to be champion, and go get it.
I wouldn't

And the Mess comparisson? a pretty big stretch there don't you think.

Drouin is not a guy that is physically capable of plowing through guys.

I'd have a hard time making a McD for MacKinnon trade. And we already know how good he is against NHL talent. Drouin? Jury is still out.

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07-18-2014, 08:32 AM
  #70
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Who Stays? Who gets traded? Who goes?

So we have some big time contracts to sign next season. Its a little early to understand our cap situation but for the most part we have a rough idea of what our RFA's will be signing for. Some names are being left off this because they will be getting 2 way contracts next and don't effect cap space.

Upcoming UFA's
St. Louis, Martin - Current Contract 5.625m
Staal, Marc - Current Contract 3.975m
Talbot, Cameron - Current Contract 562k

Upcoming RFA's
Stepan, Derek - Current Contract - 3.075m
Hagelin, Carl - Current Contract 2.25m

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07-18-2014, 08:32 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by SeventySeven View Post
Phil Kessel and Tyler Seguin say hi.
Not remotely comparable.

Kessel was 21 years old at the time of the trade, had just come off a 36 goal, 60 point in 70 game season, and was an RFA with 4 years left until he reached UFA status.

Toronto traded 2 1st round picks and a 2nd for Kessel. The first round picks ended up being 2nd overall in 2010 and 9th overall in 2011, but neither team knew at the time or even expected that they would be that good, particularly the 2010 pick.

Staal is 27 and 1 year away from being a UFA. You are out of your mind if you think Tampa would trade Drouin for 1 year of Staal.

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07-18-2014, 08:37 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
Not remotely comparable.

Kessel was 21 years old at the time of the trade, had just come off a 36 goal, 60 point in 70 game season, and was an RFA with 4 years left until he reached UFA status.

Toronto traded 2 1st round picks and a 2nd for Kessel. The first round picks ended up being 2nd overall in 2010 and 9th overall in 2011, but neither team knew at the time or even expected that they would be that good, particularly the 2010 pick.

Staal is 27 and 1 year away from being a UFA. You are out of your mind if you think Tampa would trade Drouin for 1 year of Staal.
I doubt they would trade Drouin for Staal, signed for the next 6 years at 5 million per season.

Staal is a one dimensional defenceman that has concussion issues and limited vision.

Drouin is going to be a consistent 30/50 guy

Physically limited one dimensional players do not garner that in trades.

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Old
07-18-2014, 08:48 AM
  #73
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I think MSL takes a cut 4.5-5 mill and he signs one year deals kinda like Selanne.

Hags Step and Staal are all getting raises. I think Cam is gone unless he signs real cheap.

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07-18-2014, 09:09 AM
  #74
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GAGLine and Fletch make smart, thoughtful and valid arguments.

Other than that, it's scary how much discrepancy there is between the value players have and the value HF posters think they have.

"Staal is a one-dimensional defenseman with concussion issues and limited vision."

I'm laughing so hard at that.

Brooks Orpik and Nikita Nikitin must be better than Marc Staal.

We must be lucky Staal's contract is up then, so we can finally get away from such a flawed player!

Seriously, unreal.


I still don't think something based around Staal for Drouin is all that wild of an idea. Teams have different needs and are at different stages in their development.

Drouin hasn't cracked Tampa's lineup yet.

Like I said, the clock is ticking for Yzerman: if Tampa doesn't make some serious strides towards becoming a contender soon, Stamkos is much more likely to leave for nothing in less than two years from today. That's why Tampa went out and made some noise on July 1st. Their window is from now until two seasons from now: not necessarily to win a Cup, but to make Stamkos feel like they're close enough that he'll want to re-sign there.

A Drouin for Staal deal signals, "we're all-in" and going for it right now. Perhaps something is added to Staal. Whatever the specifics, it's the KIND of future for RIGHT NOW move that Tampa is now in the mode to make.

As flashy as he is, it may be 2-3 years until Drouin finds his NHL groove. That's too late for Tampa Bay. If they don't make some noise this year or next, Stamkos will be gone. You can take that to the bank.


Last edited by Zuccarello Awesome*: 07-18-2014 at 09:18 AM.
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07-18-2014, 09:17 AM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Broadway Hat View Post
Kessel was traded for two 1sts and a 2nd before the draft slots were even known. Toronto stinking and moving into 2nd overall is what netted the Bruins 2nd overall, Dinkleberg. Nice try.

I would trade Mcdonagh for Drouin if Tampa asked. Drouin has Messier potential and would almost "guarantee" us a future Cup with this roster. Give Brassard and Zucc their money, play hardball with Kreider until he caves into wanting to play for a soon to be champion, and go get it.
Good God, man.

The kid hasn't played in an NHL game and was picked 3rd overall. And we're comparing him to one of the top 5 NHL centers of all time? Not to mention suggesting trading the team's best player for a prospect the year after being in the cup finals.

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