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Selke trophy - top fives

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Old
07-17-2014, 09:30 PM
  #1
Hockey Outsider
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Selke trophy - top fives

Selke tropy - top five finishes by player
1978 (inception of award) to 2016

PlayerFirstSecondThirdFourthFifthTotal
Guy Carbonneau 3 2 1 2 1 9
Patrice Bergeron 3 2 1 1 7
Pavel Datsyuk 3 3 1 7
Michael Peca 2 1 1 3 7
Craig Ramsay 1 3 2 1 7
Jere Lehtinen 3 1 2 6
Jonathan Toews 1 2 1 2 6
Bob Gainey 4 1 5
Sergei Fedorov 2 1 2 5
John Madden 1 3 1 5
Ryan Kesler 1 1 2 1 5
Steve Kasper 1 1 2 4
Anze Kopitar 1 1 1 1 4
Ron Francis 1 1 1 1 4
Steve Yzerman 1 1 1 1 4
Esa Tikkanen 3 1 4
Jari Kurri 1 1 1 1 4
David Backes 1 2 1 4
Doug Jarvis 1 1 1 3
Doug Gilmour 1 1 1 3
Rick Meagher 1 1 1 3
Craig Conroy 1 1 1 3
Joel Otto 2 1 3
Don Luce 1 1 1 3

Will try to post some analysis later but figured the data, on its own, would be a good resource. Let me know if there are any errors or omissions.


Last edited by Hockey Outsider: 06-22-2016 at 09:54 PM.
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Old
07-17-2014, 09:32 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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I would have been very surprised to see anyone but Carbs as #1 (considering Gainey and Ramsay were in the middle of their careers when the award came out). Bergeron certainly has a chance to be up there when all is said and done.

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07-17-2014, 09:41 PM
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struckbyaparkedcar
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Fun fact: with Kopitar's second place finish, every team to win the Cup after the lockout has featured a one-time Selke finalist.

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07-17-2014, 10:10 PM
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vadim sharifijanov
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Fun fact: with Kopitar's second place finish, every team to win the Cup after the lockout has featured a one-time Selke finalist.
the kings already had mike richards. but you know, every finalist since the lockout did too, with the exception of this year's rangers (who had two guys who have finished fourth in selke voting) and... the freakin' new jersey devils.

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07-17-2014, 10:13 PM
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struckbyaparkedcar
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Ha, true. I keep overlooking that because Richards was the only winning representative who wasn't doing the defensive heavy lifting at the time. I guess you could make an argument for Datsyuk, but he kind of won the trophy that season, so he put in his share of work.

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07-17-2014, 10:45 PM
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I was surprised to see how high up the list Peca ranks. Based on this, it makes you wonder if Peca will be inducted into the HHOF eventually.

It goes to show you just how underrated those late 90's Sabres teams really were, it doesn't fit the "Hasek was the only reason why they made the playoffs" argument.

I was also surprised not to see Forsberg higher up.

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07-17-2014, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
I was surprised to see how high up the list Peca ranks. Based on this, it makes you wonder if Peca will be inducted into the HHOF eventually.

It goes to show you just how underrated those late 90's Sabres teams really were, it doesn't fit the "Hasek was the only reason why they made the playoffs" argument.

I was also surprised not to see Forsberg higher up.
I loved Peca's combo of defensive play and leadership, bit he can wait in line behind Carbs and Ramsay for the Hall

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07-17-2014, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I loved Peca's combo of defensive play and leadership, bit he can wait in line behind Carbs and Ramsay for the Hall
To think that now Selke caliber forwards are among the most coveted and respected forwards in the NHL yet the three best defensive forwards to ever play the game are not in the Hall yet is a bit sad.

It truly shows that offense is more "sexy".


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07-17-2014, 11:15 PM
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It goes to show you just how underrated those late 90's Sabres teams really were, it doesn't fit the "Hasek was the only reason why they made the playoffs" argument.
I really can't agree, no matter how much credit we throw Peca's way. Those teams had ~3 above average skaters, and virtually every non-expansion team has had that much. Satan didn't actually have many healthy, good years there and in Hasek's 2 MVP years their leading scorers had 53 and 48 points. Their actual group of defensemen was so, so bad as well... Get past Zhitnik (who wasn't great himself) and you were really trying to talk yourself into Jason Woolley.

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07-17-2014, 11:28 PM
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I really can't agree, no matter how much credit we throw Peca's way. Those teams had ~3 above average skaters, and virtually every non-expansion team has had that much. Satan didn't actually have many healthy, good years there and in Hasek's 2 MVP years their leading scorers had 53 and 48 points. Their actual group of defensemen was so, so bad as well... Get past Zhitnik (who wasn't great himself) and you were really trying to talk yourself into Jason Woolley.
They also had 2 great coaches in Nolan and Ruff who were able to conceal their weaknesses immensely by playing a tight defensive game that forced to make opposing teams take a lot of shots from afar.

I'm a huge Hasek fan but I remember clearly back then that some of the arguments were that the Sabres defense made Hasek look better with a very high quantity of shots against them but a lot of shots were from non-dangerous locations on the ice, long distance shots. I'm not even making this up, a lot of play-by-play analysts and TSN panelists and what not used to bring it up all the time.

Go watch the Czech vs Canada game, he was great there too but he gets placed on a pedestal due to facing more shots thus making him have a higher save %. Roy was just as good in that game.

Hasek as a Red Wings player (when he won 41 games) was just a bit inferior to the Hasek of the Sabres era, but that team was designed to shelter him.

I know I will get a lot of flack for this.

Peca is vastly underrated, he was probably the greatest physical two-way forward to ever play but didn't have the best offensive numbers although I think he did have a lot more talent than his stats say as evidence by his junior career.

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07-18-2014, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
To think that now Selke caliber forwards are among the most coveted and respected forwards in the NHL yet the three best defensive forwards to ever play the game are not in the Hall yet is a bit sad.

It truly shows that offense is more "sexy".
I don't know who you think the 3 best defensive forwards to ever play the game are, but Frank Neighbor, Bobby Clark, and Bob Gainey are all in the Hall. I realize Gainey opens the door for Carbonneau, but (rightly or wrongly), it does matter that Gainey was part of a dynasty and won a Conn Smythe

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07-18-2014, 12:31 AM
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They also had 2 great coaches in Nolan and Ruff who were able to conceal their weaknesses immensely by playing a tight defensive game that forced to make opposing teams take a lot of shots from afar.
Hasek had similar seasons under Muckler, too. I also don't feel too strongly about Ruff, although that's another topic.

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I'm a huge Hasek fan but I remember clearly back then that some of the arguments were that the Sabres defense made Hasek look better with a very high quantity of shots against them but a lot of shots were from non-dangerous locations on the ice, long distance shots. I'm not even making this up, a lot of play-by-play analysts and TSN panelists and what not used to bring it up all the time..
They tend to that whenever a team gets really good goaltending, and I don't think it's any more accurate with those Sabres teams. Also his backups didn't set the world on fire.

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Go watch the Czech vs Canada game, he was great there too but he gets placed on a pedestal due to facing more shots thus making him have a higher save %. Roy was just as good in that game.
Yeah, I agree. The Czechs actually outshot the Canadians in that game, 27-24. I think a lot of the legacy was the shootout. Although, Hasek was still the best player in those Olympics, he completely stonewalled the Americans and Russians too.

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07-18-2014, 12:22 PM
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You left out Brind Amour who won in 06 and 07.

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07-18-2014, 12:27 PM
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You left out Brind Amour who won in 06 and 07.
No top 5 finishes other than those two years

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07-18-2014, 12:29 PM
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I loved Peca's combo of defensive play and leadership, bit he can wait in line behind Carbs and Ramsay for the Hall
Plus his dirty hits won't earn him any favours on the HHoF commitee

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07-18-2014, 01:06 PM
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vadim sharifijanov
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do you guys think peca has an outside HHOF shot if tucker never low-bridges him in the playoffs and he puts together another couple of selke seasons after '02? he was at his absolute peak, and battled with injuries for the rest of his career.

i mean, not saying that a high-contact guy like peca wouldn't have broken down anyway, and not that he didn't have three good-ish seasons after the knee surgery (two 5th place selke finishes, then the finals run after the lockout), but looking back at his selke finishes, that's very impressive. more impressive than i remembered, actually. if he ends up with a selke record of 3 - 3 - 2 - 1 - 1 or something like that...

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07-18-2014, 01:13 PM
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Buffalo's most complete regular season of the Hasek era came while getting absolutely nothing from Peca.

Mikey's probably underrated (the him/Cabs/Lehtinen talk gets way more interesting when all 3 have Cups), but he didn't prop up Hasek to much extent until the postseason.

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07-18-2014, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Peca is vastly underrated, he was probably the greatest physical two-way forward to ever play but didn't have the best offensive numbers although I think he did have a lot more talent than his stats say as evidence by his junior career.
Completely agree with you here. I maintain that Peca is the best I've seen in his own zone. Career wise, there are other defensive forwards rightly ranked ahead of him, but there were times when Peca was flawless.

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07-18-2014, 03:06 PM
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I don't know who you think the 3 best defensive forwards to ever play the game are, but Frank Neighbor, Bobby Clark, and Bob Gainey are all in the Hall.
One of these things is not like the others. Nighbor and Clarke were on a different plane offensively than Gainey, so putting them together as a group doesn't make sense. Gainey was a defensive specialist; Nighbor was at the end of his career but led the NHA/NHL in goals once and assists twice.

The point about offence being more sexy stands, as Gainey is really the only modern forward who was a defensive specialist who's in the Hall. There are plenty of offensive specialists in the Hall, even though the type of people on the selection committee really should know better.

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I realize Gainey opens the door for Carbonneau, but (rightly or wrongly), it does matter that Gainey was part of a dynasty and won a Conn Smythe
It does matter, of course. But offensive specialists like Dino Ciccareli are put in the Hall without such qualifications. You can't just compare Carbonneau to Gainey; it has to be everyone who's inducted from the modern era.

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07-20-2014, 03:38 PM
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Peca's 7 straight top-5 seasons in Selke voting are indeed very impressive in retrospect.

Shame how his career tailed off at such a young age following knee injuries.

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07-20-2014, 04:19 PM
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re: how seriously we should take selke voting, obviously the criteria has changed over the years. i don't know that john madden would win selkes now, or that '93 gilmour would have during the DPE. i was too young to be able to judge what to make of the early years of selke voting, though troy murray winning it in his giant outlier offensive year suggests that maybe the '11 kesler effect (i.e., very good defensive guy winning it for an offensive blip year instead of an especially good defensive year) may have come into play back then too.

but the other thing about the selke is that it often goes to a a guy on a flavour of the month team rather than to the most deserving candidate, similar to the jack adams and lady byng. in the early 90s, if you asked me who the three best defensive forwards in the game were, i'd tell you carbonneau, tikkanen, and otto. only one of those three won selkes. tik and otto finished behind guys like meagher, graham, and gilmour. in those years, brett hull won the lady byng, and belfour won the calder and vezina, and pat burns won the jack adams. seems like a situation where voters may have given extra consideration to a veteran captain (or in gilmour's case leader) of a team that had a really good year-- like, "well i'd love to give adam oates an all-star nod but i can't in good conscience put him above messier and gretzky; but i can justify meagher for the selke and we'll throw hullie a lady byng for his 72 goal season" (in '90), or "gee, roenick deserves some kudos here, but realistically what can i give him? could throw some selke votes at graham and larmer, though" (in '91), and gilmour's selke is probably as clear of a consolation prize award (for the hart you couldn't possibly give him in '93) as we saw in that generation. actually, francis in '95 (and his lady byng in the same year) feels like a consolation for jagr's hart runner up too.

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07-20-2014, 05:51 PM
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Wow I tend to forget how great Bergeron is.Imagine he wins another Selke with say 2 or 3 other top 5 in selke voting, where would he rank in a list of greatest defensive forward? Should be very high.

Surprised that Brind'Amour has no other top 5 finishes.

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07-20-2014, 05:55 PM
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Wow I tend to forget how great Bergeron is.Imagine he wins another Selke with say 2 or 3 other top 5 in selke voting, where would he rank in a list of greatest defensive forward? Should be very high.
His 2nd place finish (to Toews) was also one of the closest finishes ever, while his two wins were in landslides.

I think a lot of Bergeron's legacy depends on how he well keeps it up when Chara really declines, but I would not be shocked if in 20 years, he was considered in the same class as Nighbor, Clarke, and Carbonneau as the top defensive centers of all-time (obviously just talking defense here).

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07-20-2014, 06:01 PM
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His 2nd place finish (to Toews) was also one of the closest finishes ever, while his two wins were in landslides.

I think a lot of Bergeron's legacy depends on how he well keeps it up when Chara really declines, but I would not be shocked if in 20 years, he was considered in the same class as Nighbor, Clarke, and Carbonneau as the top defensive centers of all-time (obviously just talking defense here).
Wow quite the projection.Honestly I never thought of him that way until now but looking closer he has a shot at being ranked very high on those lists.Impressive.

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07-20-2014, 06:07 PM
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Wow quite the projection.Honestly I never thought of him that way until now but looking closer he has a shot at being ranked very high on those lists.Impressive.
Honestly, he just needs a 2nd half of his career exactly like his first half (obviously not a guarantee especially without Chara), and I'd consider Bergeron up there. The guy just flat out owns whatever center he's put against.

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