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Legwand vs. Cullen vs. Gratton vs. Sillinger vs. Horcoff

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Old
01-13-2016, 05:13 PM
  #1
seventieslord
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Legwand vs. Cullen vs. Gratton vs. Sillinger vs. Horcoff

Rank these 5 players in order:

David Legwand
Matt Cullen
Mike Sillinger
Chris Gratton
Shawn Horcoff

offense, defense, penalty killing, faceoffs, versatility, peak, prime, longevity, playoffs, team success... take it all into account.

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Old
01-13-2016, 06:07 PM
  #2
Hawksfan2828
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Rank these 5 players in order:

David Legwand
Matt Cullen
Mike Sillinger
Chris Gratton
Shawn Horcoff

offense, defense, penalty killing, faceoffs, versatility, peak, prime, longevity, playoffs, team success... take it all into account.
As players overall...

Legwand
Gratton
Sillinger
Horcroff
Cullen

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Old
01-13-2016, 06:28 PM
  #3
vadim sharifijanov
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peak or prime or career?

i think either way sillinger and gratton are at the bottom.

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Old
01-13-2016, 07:00 PM
  #4
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I want to put Horcoff number one on this and fairly easily.

Maybe I'm a homer but he was a number one center on a SC finalist, a solid defensive guy his entire career, strong on faceoffs and had a (brief) window where he put up decent numbers.

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Old
01-13-2016, 09:06 PM
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seventieslord
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
I want to put Horcoff number one on this and fairly easily.

Maybe I'm a homer but he was a number one center on a SC finalist, a solid defensive guy his entire career, strong on faceoffs and had a (brief) window where he put up decent numbers.
I'm nitpicking when I say this, as I don't have a horse in the race and am going to try to be more detailed in all areas later on, but for starters, one thing I need to correct is that Horcoff is a 49.9% on faceoffs in his career since 2008, 50.2% before 2008, easily the 2nd worst on this list.

Cullen is 53.9/49.5, Gratton is 55.3/55.4, Sillinger was 56.5/57.7 and Legwand is 47.9/43.7 (ouch.)

sources: hockey-reference.com (2008 and on), 2007-08 NHL guide and record book (for pre-07/08) - could have gotten career numbers for all five from the OGARB, but would have meant pulling out three books.

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Old
01-13-2016, 09:14 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Rank these 5 players in order:

David Legwand
Matt Cullen
Mike Sillinger
Chris Gratton
Shawn Horcoff

offense, defense, penalty killing, faceoffs, versatility, peak, prime, longevity, playoffs, team success... take it all into account.
Horcoff #1. His 2005-2009 peak is the best of anyone else on this list, and his 05-06 season is by far the best of anyone here.

After that, I'd rate it :

Legwand
Cullen
Gratton
Sillinger

Legwand was an ideal #2 two-way center at his peak. Cullen was similar although a bit of a lesser player. Gratton I never really rated - good on faceoffs, but slow, awful in the playoffs, and I felt over-rated defensively. Sillinger spent most of his career as a below-average tweener who alternated between being a bad #2 center on bad teams and being a bad #3 center on good teams, before having a good offensive blip in his mid-30s.

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Old
01-14-2016, 01:55 AM
  #7
Hobnobs
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Horcoff
Legwand
Gratton
Cullen
Sillinger

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Old
01-14-2016, 02:42 AM
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Terry Yake
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horcoff
legwand
cullen
gratton
sillinger

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Old
01-14-2016, 10:55 AM
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HangFromRafts
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Tough one, as there doesn't seem to be a consensus from reading the posts above and there isn't a lot of separation, career 2nd/3rd line guys, who were all useful players - some longer than others.

I think Gratton is last, he did put up a few good seasons (and was quite productive all the way through to his days in BUF) but I think he did get a lot of mileage from being a big strong C, who really wasn't all that good defensively. Almost a minus player in each season he played. His time as an impact player is very short.

I had Legwand tops, but after reading some of the posts above Horcoff is probably #1 here as he does have the highest peak. For about 5yrs he was a multi tool leatherman for a tough and gritty oilers team, he was their leader. His time as an impact player is also quite short. Legwand is probably a small notch below Horcoff (a swiss army knife), but basically the same tier. He embodied NSH hockey, hard working, in your face, good defensively, chipped in points, good hitter - he was/is a difficult player to play against - you don't think of the top 2 C of Arnott and Legwand to be formidable but they had great success. He was more useful for longer than Horcoff but doesn't quite match Horcoff's pinacle.


That leaves Sillinger and Cullen. My memory, although quite hazy, tells me Cullen was the better player. Sillinger up until age 34, career high in points was 52. Yes he played through the DPE, but also benefited from playing in the wide open early 90s. Inexplicably has his best (pts production) seasons at age 34 and 35. Played for an obscene number of teams. I cannot quite recall how well Cullen played without the puck or on the defensive side of the game but I want to put Cullen ahead of Sillinger.

Horcoff
Legwand

Cullen
Sillinger
Gratton

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Old
01-14-2016, 09:02 PM
  #10
vadim sharifijanov
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horcoff: average #1 center at best, probably best served as a very good second line center. third best guy on his line (smyth and hemsky) but did all the heavy lifting those guys wouldn't/couldn't do. to me, clearly the best guy here.

legwand/cullen: never really noticed legwand much, but i remember him being really fast with hands of stone. i guess he eventually found his place as a two-way guy who if he scores that's a bonus. between him an matt cullen, at least i remember cullen as a very solid two-way guy who could put up points at a 2nd/3rd line tweener level. but maybe that's because of the respective teams they played on. looking at their hockey-ref pages, i can't believe either guy ever scored 25 goals. brandon sutter either, but that's another conversation.

sillinger: classic bad team scorer; his teams never won more than 1 game in a playoff year the last 12 years of his career. incredible longevity for a guy who seemingly played his entire career one game away from the waiver wire but probably wouldn't even have been in the league past the age of 24 (and only living that long off his draft status) if not for all those rounds of expansion. amazing at faceoffs, forgettable at everything else.

gratton: played 1,000 games and i can't for the life of me figure out why. a big body with rocks for hockey sense. everything that was bad about keith primeau with none of the good things.

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Old
01-15-2016, 01:38 PM
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tony d
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Gratton Legwand Sillinger Horcoff Cullen

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Old
01-15-2016, 05:56 PM
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Voight
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David Legwand
Matt Cullen
Chris Gratton
Mike Sillinger
Shawn Horcoff

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Old
01-16-2016, 12:15 AM
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Sprague Cleghorn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawked View Post
David Legwand
Matt Cullen
Chris Gratton
Mike Sillinger
Shawn Horcoff
Seems to me you hate every Oiler except for Gretzky

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Old
01-17-2016, 10:56 AM
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King Forsberg
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Legwand
Cullen
Gratton
Horcoff
Sillinger

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Old
01-17-2016, 12:51 PM
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mrhockey193195
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Was Sillinger not good defensively? Am I just thinking of his faceoffs?

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01-17-2016, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HangFromRafts View Post
Tough one, as there doesn't seem to be a consensus from reading the posts above and there isn't a lot of separation, career 2nd/3rd line guys, who were all useful players - some longer than others.

I think Gratton is last, he did put up a few good seasons (and was quite productive all the way through to his days in BUF) but I think he did get a lot of mileage from being a big strong C, who really wasn't all that good defensively. Almost a minus player in each season he played. His time as an impact player is very short.

I had Legwand tops, but after reading some of the posts above Horcoff is probably #1 here as he does have the highest peak. For about 5yrs he was a multi tool leatherman for a tough and gritty oilers team, he was their leader. His time as an impact player is also quite short. Legwand is probably a small notch below Horcoff (a swiss army knife), but basically the same tier. He embodied NSH hockey, hard working, in your face, good defensively, chipped in points, good hitter - he was/is a difficult player to play against - you don't think of the top 2 C of Arnott and Legwand to be formidable but they had great success. He was more useful for longer than Horcoff but doesn't quite match Horcoff's pinacle.


That leaves Sillinger and Cullen. My memory, although quite hazy, tells me Cullen was the better player. Sillinger up until age 34, career high in points was 52. Yes he played through the DPE, but also benefited from playing in the wide open early 90s. Inexplicably has his best (pts production) seasons at age 34 and 35. Played for an obscene number of teams. I cannot quite recall how well Cullen played without the puck or on the defensive side of the game but I want to put Cullen ahead of Sillinger.

Horcoff
Legwand

Cullen
Sillinger
Gratton
Cullen was good enough defensively that during his second stint in Carolina he played a couple games on D when the Canes were just flat out low on available players. Nothing stellar or world beating defensively about him but he played a rather good game overall in that regard.

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Old
01-18-2016, 10:25 AM
  #17
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I have Horcoff as number one here. Not sure how to rank the rest.

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Old
01-18-2016, 12:05 PM
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Hobnobs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
horcoff: average #1 center at best, probably best served as a very good second line center. third best guy on his line (smyth and hemsky) but did all the heavy lifting those guys wouldn't/couldn't do. to me, clearly the best guy here.

legwand/cullen: never really noticed legwand much, but i remember him being really fast with hands of stone. i guess he eventually found his place as a two-way guy who if he scores that's a bonus. between him an matt cullen, at least i remember cullen as a very solid two-way guy who could put up points at a 2nd/3rd line tweener level. but maybe that's because of the respective teams they played on. looking at their hockey-ref pages, i can't believe either guy ever scored 25 goals. brandon sutter either, but that's another conversation.

sillinger: classic bad team scorer; his teams never won more than 1 game in a playoff year the last 12 years of his career. incredible longevity for a guy who seemingly played his entire career one game away from the waiver wire but probably wouldn't even have been in the league past the age of 24 (and only living that long off his draft status) if not for all those rounds of expansion. amazing at faceoffs, forgettable at everything else.

gratton: played 1,000 games and i can't for the life of me figure out why. a big body with rocks for hockey sense. everything that was bad about keith primeau with none of the good things.
Gratton became a great faceoff guy, decent 2nd liner and good ES checker. Had a great playoffs with the Sabres too iirc. He had more impact on the game than Mike Sillinger by far and on better teams to boot. While he never became a super star and was a bust in that regard. He was better than Sillinger that was an even bigger bust.

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Old
01-18-2016, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
peak or prime or career?

i think either way sillinger and gratton are at the bottom.
I'll agree with this one.

Legwand's at the top, then Horcoff and Cullen in whatever order, then Sillinger and Gratton in whatever order.

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Old
01-18-2016, 08:32 PM
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Nalens Oga
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I'd probably take Gratton at his peak, there was a reason why he was so souhgt-after after becoming an FA. Part of that was potential but still, he was a star at his best. Horcoff would have the 2nd highest peak. Sillinger the lowest. And Legwand was probably the best career-wise, fairly consistent when healthy.

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