HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Peter Forsberg: The Reality in Contrast With The Imagined, Romanticized Version.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-19-2014, 08:55 PM
  #26
JetsAlternate
Registered User
 
JetsAlternate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,149
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Taylor View Post
For the record, there were lots of claims that Forsberg was the best player in the world before 2003, I've read many quotes and also a book from the hockey news I believe it was that ranked Forsberg ahead of Lindros and Jagr as soon as Lemieux's first retirement. When it comes down to it, IMO, there is nothing that separates the following players at their best, Trottier, Lafleur, Jagr, Yzerman, Sakic, Forsberg, Malkin, Lindros, Crosby, Ovechkin, Lidstrom, Bourque, Potvin, and I may be in the minority about this one, but even Datsyuk. All of those players are the absolute best I've seen since I've been watching hockey in the 70's, other than Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, and are even slightly better IMO than players like Fedorov, Messier, Clarke, Bossy and Selanne. While still amazing, those might be the five most overrated players on this forum. I think a guy like Zetterberg in his prime was even on their level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Taylor View Post
This thread is a load of crap IMHO. Forsberg may get overrated by a select few posters, but I maintain that there's more who vastly underrate him than overrate him. This thread focuses on all the negatives about him, while stating any positives are "overrating" him. Fact is when people say he controlled the pace of the game better than or as good as any except the generational talents (Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Howe), there's a reason why so many people say that, and that is of course because it's the truth. He simply dominated games at a level that not even Crosby or Malkin can, or a peak Datsyuk even. He was every bit as good as most people on this board claim him to be. Tons of people say, oh, he played second fiddle to Sakic, he never scored more than 30 goals, Stamkos is better, he would be a top 10 player today, etc., all of that is severely underrating him. I'm just glad most reasonable posters see him for what he was, and that's one of the very best players to ever play.
It seems there's a very large discrepancy between our opinions. I simply place Forsberg on the same tier as his competition during the Dead Puck Era. You bolded the words "very best," which says something about your emphasis of those words in relation to Forsberg.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MS View Post
Interesting post, but I think you're attacking a faulty premise.

There might be the odd few people who overrate Forsberg, especially amongst Colorado fans who romanticize his skills a little bit ... but through his prime he was rarely considered the best forward in the NHL and I don't think anyone thinks of him that way now in retrospect either.

For a stretch of time (1995-2003 or thereabouts) he was probably the best playmaking center in the NHL and augmented that with a very good all-around game and ability to raise his game in the playoffs.

He was probably somewhere from the 3rd-5th best player in the NHL for most of that stretch, when healthy. Would have finished top-3 in NHL in scoring most of those years if he was playing close to the full 82 games.

However, his fragility is something that has to be held against him as it prevented him from delivering the value to his teams that some of his slightly less-talented peers were able to.

And I think that's how most people perceive him. An elite (although certainly not all-time elite or an all-time top-10 player or anything like that) player who was held back by injuries from having the career he perhaps could have.
That's similar to how I view him, although I disagree that most perceive him in that manner. Considering we have opinions in this thread that disagree with this, I think there's something to be said still about how people view him. The quotations at the top of this post, for example, completely disagree with this understanding of him.

The HOH Top 100 Players list from 2008 ranks him 74th all-time. The HOH Top 70 Players list from 2009 ranks him 65th all-time. I think those are fair rankings. The way some people in this thread have spoken of him and viciously attacked me for this thread, though, there still seem to be some very different opinions about him. Not everyone sees Forsberg as you or I do.

In fact, some have harshly criticized me for only speaking of the negatives regarding Forsberg, but I see some strong praise for him in the OP, including comments from Ryan Smyth, Mike Johnston and Mattias Ohlund about his style of play. This thread is not meant to paint him in strictly negative terms; it assumes people are already aware of much of the hyperbolic Forsberg and is meant as a counterweight to it.


Last edited by JetsAlternate: 07-19-2014 at 09:13 PM.
JetsAlternate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2014, 09:14 PM
  #27
livewell68
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,896
vCash: 500
I personally don't think Forsberg is either overrated or underrated, I think there are fans that tend to either overrate him or underrate him but in general he is rated fairly.

The general perception nowadays is that Forsberg was for the majority of his career around the 2nd to 5th best forward in the NHL. There was a brief time around 2003 where he was largely regarded as the best player in the NHL but that had more to do with Jagr being disinterested, Lemieux being much older and broken down and Sakic also being injured so the defacto best player became Forsberg.

He was however never better than Jagr when both were at their best. Sure Forsberg's game is more multi-faceted than Jagr's but the offensive edge Jagr had should not be overlooked.

One needs to look no further than their season by season PPG's to see just how far ahead of Forsberg Jagr was offensively.

We're not talking about Jagr scoring just 100 Pts and Forsberg scoring 90 Pts a season and so Forsberg would be better because of his all-around game, we're talking about Jagr beating Forsberg by 10-30 Pts in the scoring race head-to-head.

Here is a breakdown of each player's 10 best PPG seasons.

First I'll do Jagr

1995-96: 149 Pts in 82 games, 1.82 PPG

1998-99: 127 Pts in 81 games, 1.57 PPG

1999-00: 96 Pts in 63 games, 1.52 PPG

1996-97: 95 Pts in 63 games, 1.51 PPG

2005-06: 123 Pts in 82 games, 1.50 PPG

2000-01: 121 Pts in 81 games, 1.50 PPG

1994-95: 70 Pts in 48 games, 1.46 PPG

1997-98: 102 Pts in 77 games, 1.32 PPG

1993-94: 99 Pts in 80 games, 1.24 PPG

2006-07: 96 Pts in 82 games, 1.17 PPG

According to the stats, Jagr played at a 120 + Pts pace 7 times in his career and a total of 9 seasons in which he was on pace of 100 + Pts. Injuries also affected Jagr in his career.

Now on to Forsberg

1995-96: 116 Pts in 82 games, 1.41 PPG

2002-03: 106 Pts in 75 games, 1.41 PPG

2003-04: 55 Pts in 39 games, 1.41 PPG

1996-97: 86 Pts in 65 games, 1.32 PPG

1997-98: 91 Pts n 72 games, 1.26 PPG

2005-06: 75 Pts in 60 games, 1.25 PPG

1998-99: 97 Pts in 78 games, 1.24 PPG

2000-01: 89 Pts in 73 games, 1.22 PPG

1994-95 : 50 Pts in 47 games, 1.06 PPG

1999-00: 51 Pts in 49 games, 1.04 PPG

Jagr's 7th best PPG is better than Forsberg's best PPG finish (although Forsberg did it 3 times).

If we count their stats in years their careers overlapped, here is what we have (1994-95 to 2007-08);

Forsberg played 706 games, scored 249 goals, had 636 assists for a total of 885 Pts (PPG of 1.25 PPG). Of course the numbers are different if we talk about "prime".

Forsberg played 697 games during his prime (1994-95 to 2006-07), scored 248 goals, had 623 assists for a total of 871 Pts (PPG of 1.25).

Now Jagr; he played 962 games total, scored 521 goals, had 759 assists for a total of 1280 Pts (PPG of 1.33 PPG). Now that is significant since Jagr also played 265 more games in the same timeframe.

If we talk about Jagr's prime, here are his numbers; 880 games played, scored 496 goals, had 713 assists for a total of 1209 Pts (1.37 PPG). Not only was Jagr more durable, he was also a much more dominant player during their primes and during the time their careers overlapped. It's not that close where Forsberg's all-around game could put him above Jagr.


Last edited by livewell68: 07-20-2014 at 09:41 AM.
livewell68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2014, 09:20 PM
  #28
whatname
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 190
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Panther View Post
I started watching the NHL regularly in 1986-87. In the past 24 seasons, the best forwards I've seen play are:
1. Wayne Gretzky (1985 to 1994)
2. Mario Lemieux (to 2001)
3. Steve Yzerman (up to 2002)
4. Peter Forsberg (1995 to 2006)
5. Joe Sakic (1989 to 2007)
6. Jaromir Jagr (1991 to 2006)
7. Mark Messier (up to 1996)
8. Sidney Crosby (2005 to now)
9. Eric Lindros (1992 to 1999)
10. Pavel Bure (1991 to 2001)
11. Alexander Ovechkin (2005-2010)
12. Martin St. Louis (2003-2013)
13. Paul Kariya (1995-2003)
14. Jari Kurri (1985 to 1990)
interesting you rank Bure ahead of Alex. Did Ovechkin's past few years decrease his value, or was Ovechkin's best not as good as Bure's best?

whatname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2014, 10:17 PM
  #29
30Yonge
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 550
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarsVonTrier View Post
lol, other than Sakic, Forsberg made those other guys good. Drury was complete garbage after he left Avs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarsVonTrier View Post
Well said.

Forsberg is also the only player to win the playoff scoring race twice without reaching the stanley cup finals.
You know who was tied for 3rd in playoff goals two years in a row despite not reaching the Finals? Chris Drury.

I realize it was in response to hyperbole but your bit about Drury is nonsense. He had two very good seasons with Buffalo after the lockout,
captaining teams that went to the ECF. Those seasons were at least the equivalent of his two best with the Avs and include 18 in 18 in the 2006 playoffs.

We are well past peak Forsberg. The sweet spot appears to be about 5 years after retirement/last significant season.
Real shame he only played about 550 games.

30Yonge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2014, 10:31 PM
  #30
The Panther
Registered User
 
The Panther's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Country: Japan
Posts: 2,184
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatname View Post
interesting you rank Bure ahead of Alex. Did Ovechkin's past few years decrease his value, or was Ovechkin's best not as good as Bure's best?
Except for my #1 and #2, everybody on my list is interchangeable with the guy 1 or 2 spots above and below. I don't really consider Bure better than Ovechkin, but at present I'll put Bure slightly higher on the list because he played longer than Ovie (so far) and I think Bure's best was slightly more impressive than Ovechkin's. Bure was better at stickhandling north-south and east-west (top speed in all directions), while I find Ovechkin impressive carrying the puck north-south but less so in any other direction. Bure had a more dangerous shot, too, albeit nobody lets more shots on net fly than Ovechkin.

On a different point, can I just add that this "nobody thought Forsberg was the best in the game except biased Colorado fans" line is totally wrong. I've never been a Colorado fan, but I thought Forsberg was the best forward in the game from 1997 to 2006 inclusive. Yes, maybe Jagr was tops circa '97 to '01 (along with Mario in 2000-01), but over that specific 10 year period I would take Forsberg as best overall. During that 10 year span, Forsberg was 2nd to Jagr in NHL points-per-game, but the difference is so small (1.32 to 1.26) as to be negligible. [NOTE: I'm not counting Lemieux or Ovechkin, who have 1 or 2 seasons to count in that time span.]

I recall watching a Hockey Night in Canada game in the late '90s when Harry Neale commented that many consider Forsberg to be pound-for-pound the best player in hockey, so clearly it wasn't an unusual idea or the exclusive idea of Colorado watchers.

The Panther is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2014, 10:32 PM
  #31
Trebek
Mod Supervisor
 
Trebek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,963
vCash: 500
As an Avalanche fan, the biggest problem that I always had with Forsberg (especially "late Forsberg") was that you never knew if you could rely on him.

When he played and was healthy, there was no one on the ice I'd rather have.

Trebek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2014, 10:34 PM
  #32
JetsAlternate
Registered User
 
JetsAlternate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,149
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
I personally don't think Forsberg is either overrated or underrated, I think there are fans that tend to either overrate him or underrate him but in general he is rated fairly.

The general perception nowadays is that Forsberg was for the majority of his career around the 2nd to 5th best forward in the NHL. There was a brief time around 2003 where he was largely regarded as the best player in the NHL but that had more to do with Jagr being disinterested, Lemieux being much older and broken down and Sakic also being injured so the defacto best player became Forsberg.

He was however never better than Jagr when both were at their best. Sure Forsberg's game is more multi-faceted than Jagr's but the offensive edge Jagr had should not be overlooked.

One needs to look no further than their season by season PPG's to see just how far ahead of Forsberg Jagr was offensively.

We're not talking about Jagr scoring just 100 Pts and Forsberg scoring 90 Pts a season and so Forsberg would be better because of his all-around game, we're talking about Jagr beating Forsberg by 10-30 Pts in the scoring race head-to-head.
This is a fair rating of him and is consistent with the way I've measured him compared to his peers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
I would agree with the idea that the backlash against the overrating of Forsberg has reached a point where he is, in general, no longer overrated around here.
I don't think it entirely has, as we've seen already in this thread some very aggressive posts arguing that Forsberg is on a level above how he has been depicted in the OP. I think, if he was no longer overrated, most people would agree with the OP to some degree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
JetsAlternate, you say in your first post that, 'Injuries played a major role in how people viewed Forsberg' but you don't really follow up on that. I'm curious if you feel injuries hurt or help his profile.
I think the difference between a single career-threatening, recurring injury and a general tendency to become injured is what distinguishes between giving a player the benefit of the doubt and judging him for his injuries.

I don't think we can give him the benefit of the doubt by asking "what would his career look like if [a particular injury] did not occur?" He sustained too many different injuries to make that a fathomable question. I don't think the injuries help his image very much at all.

Forsberg's entire body was susceptible to injury, and beginning in 1997 he began to miss lengthy strings of games because of it. In 1996-97, he missed 17 games. In 1997-98, he missed 10 games. In 1999-00, he missed 33 games. He missed the entire 2001-02 season. In 2003-04, he missed 43 games. In MODO as well during the lockout, he missed 17 games. In 2005-06, he missed 22 games; in 2006-07, 25 games. He struggled greatly with his foot problems before debuting with the Avalanche on March 4, 2008, and he still missed 7 games between then and the end of the year.

In the cap era, that would be a killer. On a lesser team than the Avalanche, that might have been a major issue as well. Forsberg was generally very injury-prone. There was not just one freak injury that caused the degradation of one part of his body; every part of him seemed to be very naturally fragile.

While he was effective on the ice, he was not always available. Some might claim he would rank higher in each year's point scoring race if he had been healthy, but most of the time there were players with higher points per game averages than him.

As looking at point scoring each season in relation to his peers does not provide us with a full idea of Forsberg's offensive production due to games lost from injury, we can analyze who was ahead of him each year in terms of points per game average each season. Only twice was he above third-place in points per game -- 2002-03 and 2003-04 -- and four times in the top five:

The list identifies: "[rank #]. [Name] [Team] [games played] [total points] [points per game]"

1995-96:

1 Mario Lemieux PIT 70 161 2.30
2 Jaromir Jagr PIT 82 149 1.82
3 Eric Lindros PHI 73 115 1.58
4 Ron Francis PIT 77 119 1.55
5 Joe Sakic COL 82 120 1.46
6 Peter Forsberg COL 82 116 1.41

1996-97:

1 Mario Lemieux PIT 76 122 1.61
2 Eric Lindros PHI 52 79 1.52
3 Jaromir Jagr PIT 63 95 1.51
4 Paul Kariya ANH 69 99 1.43
5 Teemu Selanne ANH 78 109 1.40
6 Peter Forsberg COL 65 86 1.32

1997-98:

1 Paul Kariya ANH 22 31 1.41
2 Jaromir Jagr PIT 77 102 1.32
3 Peter Forsberg COL 72 91 1.26

1998-99:

1 Jaromir Jagr PIT 81 127 1.57
2 Pavel Bure FLA 11 16 1.45
3 Teemu Selanne ANH 75 107 1.43
4 Joe Sakic COL 73 96 1.32
5 Eric Lindros PHI 71 93 1.31
6 Peter Forsberg COL 78 97 1.24

1999-2000:

1 Jaromir Jagr PIT 63 96 1.52
2 Joe Sakic COL 60 81 1.35
3 Pavel Bure FLA 74 94 1.27
4 Pierre Turgeon STL 52 66 1.27
5 Paul Kariya ANH 74 86 1.16
6 Mark Recchi PHI 82 91 1.11
7 Owen Nolan SJ 78 84 1.08
8 Teemu Selanne ANH 79 85 1.08
9 Eric Lindros PHI 55 59 1.07
10 Pavol Demitra STL 71 75 1.06
11 Mike Modano DAL 77 81 1.05
12 Luc Robitaille LA 71 74 1.04
13 Peter Forsberg COL 49 51 1.04

2000-01:

1 Mario Lemieux PIT 43 76 1.77
2 Jaromir Jagr PIT 81 121 1.49
3 Joe Sakic COL 82 118 1.44
4 Zigmund Palffy LA 73 89 1.22
5 Peter Forsberg COL 73 89 1.22

2001-02: Did not play.

2002-03:

1 Peter Forsberg COL 75 106 1.41
2 Mario Lemieux PIT 67 91 1.36
3 Joe Thornton BOS 77 101 1.31

2003-04:

1 Peter Forsberg COL 39 55 1.41
2 Zigmund Palffy LA 35 41 1.17
3 Marc Savard ATL 45 52 1.16

2005-06:

1 Joe Thornton SJ 81 125 1.54
2 Jaromir Jagr NYR 82 123 1.50
3 Daniel Alfredsson OTT 77 103 1.34
4 Jason Spezza OTT 68 90 1.32
5 Alex Ovechkin WAS 81 106 1.31
6 Sidney Crosby PIT 81 102 1.26
7 Ilya Kovalchuk ATL 78 98 1.26
8 Dany Heatley OTT 82 103 1.26
9 Peter Forsberg PHI 60 75 1.25

2006-07:

1 Sidney Crosby PIT 79 120 1.52
2 Joe Thornton SJ 82 114 1.39
3 Jarome Iginla CGY 70 94 1.34
4 Vincent Lecavalier TB 82 108 1.32
5 Jason Spezza OTT 67 87 1.30
6 Dany Heatley OTT 82 105 1.28
7 Martin St. Louis TB 82 102 1.24
8 Joe Sakic COL 82 100 1.22
9 Marian Hossa ATL 82 100 1.22
10 Marian Gaborik MIN 48 57 1.19
11 Danny Briere BUF 81 95 1.17
12 Jaromir Jagr NYR 82 96 1.17
13 Marc Savard BOS 82 96 1.17
14 Teemu Selanne ANH 82 94 1.15
15 Daniel Alfredsson OTT 77 87 1.13
16 Alex Ovechkin WAS 82 92 1.12
17 Olli Jokinen FLA 82 91 1.11
18 Pavel Datsyuk DET 79 87 1.10
19 Evgeni Malkin PIT 78 85 1.09
20 Maxim Afinogenov BUF 56 61 1.09
21 Henrik Zetterberg DET 63 68 1.08
22 Steve Sullivan NSH 57 60 1.05
23 Rod Brind'Amour CAR 78 82 1.05
24 Michael Nylander NYR 79 83 1.05
25 Daniel Sedin VAN 81 84 1.04
26 Ray Whitney CAR 81 83 1.02
27 Thomas Vanek BUF 82 84 1.02
28 Martin Havlat CHI 56 57 1.02
29 Mats Sundin TOR 75 76 1.01
30 Patrick Marleau SJ 77 78 1.01
31 Andrew Brunette COL 82 83 1.01
32 Alex Tanguay CGY 81 81 1.00
33 Michal Handzus CHI 8 8 1.00
34 Henrik Sedin VAN 82 81 0.99
35 Slava Kozlov ATL 81 80 0.99
36 Michael Cammalleri LA 81 80 0.99
37 Peter Forsberg NSH 57 55 0.96

I don't think the injuries help his offensive profile. Even if we were to multiply his point per game average by 82 for each season, his yearly totals would not be enough to actually surpass the actual top point finishes for all but one year (1997-98). For example, he missed 17 games in 1996-97. If we multiply 82 x 1.32, that would still only give him 108 points -- below Teemu Selanne's actual 109 points, and below Mario Lemieux's 122 points. Other players were injured as well, such as Paul Kariya and Jaromir Jagr, but they still managed to have a higher points per game average than Forsberg that year.

Only in 2003-04 might he have challenged in the point scoring race. In 1997-98, multiplying Forsberg's 1.26 x 82 = 103 points. Jaromir Jagr finished with an actual 102 points, making this the exception, although his points per game average is higher; if we multiply Jagr's 1.32 x 82, the result for Jaromir is 108 points.


Last edited by JetsAlternate: 07-19-2014 at 11:01 PM.
JetsAlternate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2014, 10:51 PM
  #33
livewell68
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,896
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarsVonTrier View Post
Well said.

Forsberg is also the only player to win the playoff scoring race twice without reaching the stanley cup finals.
That can also mean different things, for one it could mean that the overall scoring was low and those playoff years were more about defense and lacked marque players and the other could mean that Forsberg on his own wasn't able to bring the Avs a Cup but the one time he missed the Finals, they won the Cup.

livewell68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2014, 12:56 AM
  #34
quoipourquoi
Moderator
Goaltender
 
quoipourquoi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hockeytown, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 4,684
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetsAlternate View Post
The way some people in this thread have spoken of him and viciously attacked me for this thread, though, there still seem to be some very different opinions about him.
I'm not sure that it counts as a vicious attack to point out that the poster whose threads contain so much research that he needs a Works Cited footnote somehow missed that Forsberg was being called the best player in hockey no fewer than 13 times by coaches, GMs, players, and writers from 1996-2002 - something that anyone with a Google search or ESPN2 would know.

quoipourquoi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2014, 01:26 AM
  #35
JetsAlternate
Registered User
 
JetsAlternate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,149
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I'm not sure that it counts as a vicious attack to point out that the poster whose threads contain so much research that he needs a Works Cited footnote somehow missed that Forsberg was being called the best player in hockey no fewer than 13 times by coaches, GMs, players, and writers from 1996-2002 - something that anyone with a Google search or ESPN2 would know.
I referred, in particular, to the following two posts in that regard:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
You seem like pseudo-science kinda guy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Taylor View Post
This thread is a load of crap IMHO.
These two posters seem to disagree to a large degree with how this thread has measured Forsberg in relation to his peers.

I also did not miss that information, although I appreciate your contributions here; it is the opinion of a minority. Jaromir Jagr, whose yearly point-per-game averages, Hart Trophy voting finishes, and four consecutive Art Ross Trophies (1997-2001), was above Forsberg during this period. Peter Forsberg had 328 points between 1997-98 and 2000-01. In that same period, Jagr had 446 points. I quoted some evidence to suggest Jagr was widely considered the best player in the world.

Few could argue otherwise. I don't deny they existed. Those who did argue in Forsberg's favor, however, were in the minority.


Last edited by JetsAlternate: 07-20-2014 at 01:31 AM.
JetsAlternate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2014, 01:29 AM
  #36
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 43,479
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetsAlternate View Post
I referred, in particular, to the following two posts in that regard:


These two posters seem to disagree with how this thread has measured Forsberg in relation to his peers.

I also did not miss that information, although I appreciate your contributions here; it is the opinion of a minority. Jaromir Jagr, whose yearly point-per-game averages, Hart Trophy voting finishes, and four consecutive Art Ross Trophies (1997-2001), was above Forsberg during this period. I quoted some evidence to suggest Jagr was widely considered the best player in the world.

Few could argue otherwise. Those who did were in the minority.
Jagr was considered the best forward (and player) in the world by the majority in the late 90s (or if not a majority by a health plurality). But Forsberg was the 2nd most common choice, and there was a healthy-sized minority who preferred Forsberg because of his two-way game and playoffs.

Note that this was before Forsberg really started to get hit hard by injuries. Also before the Avs won the Cup without him (in the final 2 rounds).

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2014, 01:33 AM
  #37
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,337
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetsAlternate View Post
I referred, in particular, to the following two posts in that regard:


These two posters seem to disagree to a large degree with how this thread has measured Forsberg in relation to his peers.

I also did not miss that information, although I appreciate your contributions here; it is the opinion of a minority. Jaromir Jagr, whose yearly point-per-game averages, Hart Trophy voting finishes, and four consecutive Art Ross Trophies (1997-2001), was above Forsberg during this period. Peter Forsberg had 328 points between 1997-98 and 2000-01. In that same period, Jagr had 446 points. I quoted some evidence to suggest Jagr was widely considered the best player in the world.

Few could argue otherwise. I don't deny they existed. Those who did argue in Forsberg's favor, however, were in the minority.
Those aren't attacks on you but at the way you conduct your research. If they were attacks on you personally those posts would have been removed.

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2014, 01:45 AM
  #38
JetsAlternate
Registered User
 
JetsAlternate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,149
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Those aren't attacks on you but at the way you conduct your research. If they were attacks on you personally those posts would have been removed.
They seem quite bold and disrespectful, considering there are some in this thread who agree with the thread's assessment of the player.

I think some of the backlash to this thread goes hand-in-hand with the overrating of the player. I don't think the phenomenon has disappeared entirely as some have suggested; I feel the assessment of Forsberg in the OP and in many of this thread's posts is quite fair; those who responded aggressively seem to disagree with it entirely:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
It kinda speaks volumes about how wrong u are when wings fans attacks your arguments about a former Avs player
Earlier today, this was posted in another Forsberg thread:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=394
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Taylor View Post
IMO Forsberg was better than Messier, Fedorov, Sakic, and equal to Jagr at his best. Really if you consider eras Forsberg is better offensively than Messier, and he's better defensively as well. My problem with Fedorov is once scoring went down he was only a 60+ point player with great defensive play, and with Sakic you have a better case of being at least equal to Forsberg.
There appears to be a major discrepancy in the way some posters view Forsberg and in the way others view him. I think that is what has caused some of the friction here.


Last edited by JetsAlternate: 07-20-2014 at 01:53 AM.
JetsAlternate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2014, 01:54 AM
  #39
Balthazar
Commissioner
 
Balthazar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,705
vCash: 500
"The toughest NHL player you ever played against?" -- Quite easily Peter Forsberg.
- Chris Chelios (26 seasons in the NHL)

"Forsberg is the best player I ever played against"
- Scott Stevens (22 seasons in the NHL).


The list of players who said he was the best goes on and on but these are two legendary dmen who spent a lot of time in the NHL. That's kind of enough for me. Stats don't tell everything.

Balthazar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2014, 02:29 AM
  #40
aleshemsky83
Registered User
 
aleshemsky83's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 11,123
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Balthazar View Post
"The toughest NHL player you ever played against?" -- Quite easily Peter Forsberg.
- Chris Chelios (26 seasons in the NHL)

"Forsberg is the best player I ever played against"
- Scott Stevens (22 seasons in the NHL).


The list of players who said he was the best goes on and on but these are two legendary dmen who spent a lot of time in the NHL. That's kind of enough for me. Stats don't tell everything.
Scott Stevens played against Mario quite often. So he's either wrong or he's wrong.

Look, Forsberg, one of the all time greats, and I recently said I think hes better than Lindros. All that said, there are people on this board, and it's not a small enough group not to be mentioned, that seriously think the guy is better than Gretzky. The guys youtube videos have turned him into this otherworldly being.

By the way, for a forum where peoples eyes turn red over divers, there sure is a lot of people worshipping at the altar of a guy whose nickname became "floppa" among a lot of fans who saw him play


Last edited by aleshemsky83: 07-20-2014 at 02:35 AM.
aleshemsky83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2014, 02:29 AM
  #41
JetsAlternate
Registered User
 
JetsAlternate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,149
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Balthazar View Post
"Forsberg is the best player I ever played against"
- Scott Stevens (22 seasons in the NHL).
That's a strange choice. Stevens played between 1982 and 2004. Is he forgetting Gretzky and Lemieux? What is your source for that quotation?

JetsAlternate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2014, 02:29 AM
  #42
quoipourquoi
Moderator
Goaltender
 
quoipourquoi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hockeytown, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 4,684
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Basiscally all this. I think Forsberg got the title of "most overrated player on hfboards" 5 years ago and it's stuck, even as IMO "most overrated" has moved on to Lindros and now seemingly Selanne.
The guy who used to get doubled-up in polls against Pavel Bure and finished 117th on an aggregate list (78 spots behind Bernie Geoffrion; 61 spots behind Brett Hull; 58 spots behind Jari Kurri) some five years ago has now become overrated? I'm genuinely curious to read where (I would assume somewhere in the polls section). I think I've set one or two people straight when they went overboard on him, but I didn't think it had become a thing. Interesting to hear that the tide changed.

In the last year or so, I've seen Yzerman called a top-five player, I've seen Makarov called a top-ten player, and I've seen Fedorov called a top-twenty player. I've even seen an HOH poll of the best goal scorers where Pavel Bure was not only named, but stole 13 votes from significantly better players while receiving pages worth of researched advocacy, including 1994 Hart Trophy speculation. Those guys seem like the poster boys, at least in this section.

And after how Zetterberg finished neck-and-neck with Sundin in the Centers Project, I'm going to say that defensive forwards are the most overrated players on HFBoards, because the difference between defensive competence and great shutdown but less-than-Selke defensive has been valued at 600 GP of point-per-game hockey, and that just doesn't seem right to me.

Forsberg tied with Dionne seems like a solid adjustment from five years ago. I think as time goes by and the backlash ends, we'll see his reputation land him in the Bossy range (who is probably due for a tumble). I think Sakic is another one to watch on the overrated thing (almost above Esposito on the Centers Project!), and since no one hates Joe Sakic, I think we allow the fish to get bigger every time we tell the story. But every time we ran those numbers in the Centers Project, he kept looking better, so hell, maybe he was that good.


Overall, I think JetsAlternate's post contains some good information, but because it had to go here, it didn't hit an audience that could use it, hence why so few of us seemed to have found value in the content.

Do any of us think Forsberg was a Selke-level player? Don't all of us agree that his control of the flow of the game was the reason that other teams matched defensive players against him? Don't all of us know that he was competent enough defensively to limit any counter-attack to a greater extent than the Jagrs, Selannes, and Bures, hence the out-of-this-world +/- numbers? I think we're all good. The biggest argument I've seen in a while is whether we should consider what he was doing prior to joining the NHL as part of his longevity. We're all pretty much over the rest of it, because it's all things we already know.

Did you hear? Forsberg prefers passing over shooting!

We know.

Just like we know that Markus Naslund won the Pearson because voting was conducted before Forsberg stole his Art Ross, before Forsberg stole his teammate's Rocket Richard, before Forsberg stole his team's Division Title (and probably his girlfriend and lunch money too).

So I'm not sure why this expose of the "romanticized" Forsberg was really necessary, since it seems more deceptive than informative when you tell us that no one thought he was the best player in the world before 2003 when we know that you're not correct. I mean, why even go there? It just taints everything else, because we know how much work you put into your posts, and you simply could not have overlooked a reputation that you're trying this hard to discredit.

quoipourquoi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2014, 02:40 AM
  #43
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 43,479
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by aleshemsky83 View Post
Scott Stevens played against Mario quite often. So he's either wrong or he's wrong.

Look, Forsberg, one of the all time greats, and I recently said I think hes better than Lindros. All that said, there are people on this board, and it's not a small enough group not to be mentioned, that seriously think the guy is better than Gretzky. The guys youtube videos have turned him into this otherworldly being.

By the way, for a forum where peoples eyes turn red over divers, there sure is a lot of people worshipping at the altar of a guy whose nickname became "floppa" among a lot of fans who saw him play
I would imagine it's largely because Forsberg played a style that Stevens appreciated.

I believe that he made that quote towards the end of Forsberg's prime, so he would have been fresh in memory unlike Gretzky and Lemieux. I wonder what he would say if asked today.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2014, 02:43 AM
  #44
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 43,479
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
The guy who used to get doubled-up in polls against Pavel Bure and finished 117th on an aggregate list (78 spots behind Bernie Geoffrion; 61 spots behind Brett Hull; 58 spots behind Jari Kurri) some five years ago has now become overrated? I'm genuinely curious to read where (I would assume somewhere in the polls section). I think I've set one or two people straight when they went overboard on him, but I didn't think it had become a thing. Interesting to hear that the tide changed.
Yes, the wonderful polls section where Selanne just finished decisively over (among other players) Forsberg and Ovechkin for 4th best European NHLer of all-time. Because, you know, he was a superstar every year until the age of 42. Or something.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2014, 02:53 AM
  #45
Balthazar
Commissioner
 
Balthazar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,705
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I believe that he made that quote towards the end of Forsberg's prime, so he would have been fresh in memory unlike Gretzky and Lemieux. I wonder what he would say if asked today.
No he actually said that when asked during his own HHOF induction so I doubt there was any kind of biais involved.

At the HHOF induction, was asked the question on which player he thinks it's the best he ever played against. -- I would probably say that Forsberg is the best player I ever played against"

Scott Stevens (2007)

Balthazar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2014, 02:54 AM
  #46
JetsAlternate
Registered User
 
JetsAlternate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,149
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
So I'm not sure why this expose of the "romanticized" Forsberg was really necessary, since it seems more deceptive than informative when you tell us that no one thought he was the best player in the world before 2003 when we know that you're not correct. I mean, why even go there? It just taints everything else, because we know how much work you put into your posts, and you simply could not have overlooked a reputation that you're trying this hard to discredit.
I certainly appreciate the concern. The original quotation you refer to reads that "there were few claims that Forsberg was "the best player in the world" prior to 2003."

Perhaps you feel the phrasing needs revision. I don't have a problem altering the syntax. Prior to 2003, only a minority believed Forsberg was "the best player in the world," and I feel sufficient evidence has been posted here to show why people would have ranked, for instance, Jaromir Jagr above him. I do think the statement in question is consistent with that, although perhaps you're right in that it might be an understatement. Jaromir Jagr was the first choice for the majority of people.

I understood when I posted the thread here that people would need to visit this section in order to read it. I was hoping they would, and as stated earlier in this thread I am aware many of the Hockey History community members have sufficient knowledge and a strong understanding of the player. This thread is for the general public. Many of my threads are posted here for the sake of organization and because they conform with the themes and topics this section deals with, although the intended demographic for this thread is, in fact, the vast majority of readers on this forum. Sometimes I am unclear on what should be posted here and what should be posted on the main board. This thread's direct inspiration is the "What if Peter Forsberg would've been in his prime now?" thread currently on the main forum. Maybe this thread belongs in the main section.


Last edited by JetsAlternate: 07-20-2014 at 03:03 AM.
JetsAlternate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2014, 02:55 AM
  #47
silkyjohnson50*
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 9,183
vCash: 500
I respect the effort, but this is essentially the complete opposite of your Bure threads.

Maybe you can call it romanticizing, but as a Detroit fan, no player has ever matched the feelings of fear that Forsberg produced as an opposition player (especially in the playoffs.) It was downright frightening.

He controlled the ice like few that I've ever seen. I'm willing to bet that he would have been one of the higher Corsi players of his era. You know who the high Corsi players have been of this era? Datsyuk, Toews, Bergeron, Kopitar - those guys. And although Forsberg wasn't nearly as strong as those guys from a pure defensive standpoint, he did limit chances because of how much he controlled the puck when he was on the ice. And of course he added the physical element and was really good at winning puck battles. He was surprisingly poor on faceoffs though.

silkyjohnson50* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2014, 02:56 AM
  #48
quoipourquoi
Moderator
Goaltender
 
quoipourquoi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hockeytown, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 4,684
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Yes, the wonderful polls section where Selanne just finished decisively over (among other players) Forsberg and Ovechkin for 4th best European NHLer of all-time. Because, you know, he was a superstar every year until the age of 42. Or something.
HAHAHAHAHA!

I swear, he lost polls to both those guys just last year! Hell, I think both those guys are past him, and I'm crazy.

quoipourquoi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2014, 02:58 AM
  #49
Sonic Disturbance
Grandmaster User
 
Sonic Disturbance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Country: China
Posts: 2,110
vCash: 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
I respect the effort, but this is essentially the complete opposite of your Bure threads.

Maybe you can call it romanticizing, but as a Detroit fan, no player has ever matched the feelings of fear that Forsberg produced as an opposition player (especially in the playoffs.) It was downright frightening.

He controlled the ice like few that I've ever seen. I'm willing to bet that he would have been one of the higher Corsi players of his era. You know who the high Corsi players have been of this era? Datsyuk, Toews, Bergeron, Kopitar - those guys. And although Forsberg wasn't nearly as strong as those guys from a pure defensive standpoint, he did limit chances because of how much he controlled the puck when he was on the ice. And of course he added the physical element and was really good at winning puck battles. He was surprisingly poor on faceoffs though.
Pretty much my feelings on this as well. As much as JetsAlternate tries to "de-romanticize" Forsberg in this thread, he does the exact opposite (and to a greater magnitude) with Pavel Bure in multiple threads I've seen over the years.

Sonic Disturbance is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2014, 03:07 AM
  #50
quoipourquoi
Moderator
Goaltender
 
quoipourquoi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hockeytown, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 4,684
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetsAlternate View Post
I certainly appreciate the concern. The original quotation you refer to reads that "there were few claims that Forsberg was "the best player in the world" prior to 2003."
Actually, the original quotation I'm referring to read: "There were few to no claims from anyone that Forsberg was "the best player in the world" prior to 2003."

Which is why the bottom of your post says: "Last edited by JetsAlternate: Today at 03:41 AM."

You edited it.

I can give you a screenshot of the original if you like. Google cached it.




So did you really just edit your text and try to pass off your new text as the original because of how poorly received it was?

Wow.

quoipourquoi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:57 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.