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Lowe's strength as a GM

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Old
10-05-2003, 02:23 PM
  #26
Mizral
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Nice post, Lowetide.

I for one am no fan of Lowe's. He has some good sides, but has plenty bad sides to him. I feel he is on the bottom half of the GM Pool. I would rank him ahead of idiots such as Barnett & Mike O'Connell, but behind some of the less-than-shrewd such as Riseborough and McPhee.

Lowe's major weakness is that he's only average in so many areas. He's pretty hit & miss with drafting. He nailed Hemsky it looks like, and did well with Comrie & Semenov. However, there have been a lot of average to poor picks - too many perhaps. His drafting record is spotty, but I would say average.

Trading - one of Lowe's major weakness', I'd say. A good 50% of the time, Lowe seems to outright lose a trade. Worst of all, was the Doug Weight trade which essentially doomed the franchise to mediocrity for a few years. There is no spin on this one, boys and girls. All that's left to show for Doug Weight is Marty Reasoner at the moment. Trades such as the Brewer trades and Guerin trades were not bad considering the circumstances, but certainly not great.

Free agency - Lowe is pretty hit and miss here, too. You're right about Staios - that was a stroke of genius. Unfortunatly, Dopita was a stroke of idiocy.

Lowe's biggest downfall however, is the contract table. Yes, he did well with Smyth this year, but Lowe has had some serious problems. He couldn't get Weight signed when other small market teams have been able to lock up their best players (Ottawa - Alfredsson, Vancouver - Naslund, Calgary - Iginla). He signed Mike Comrie to a stupid contract, regardless of the pressure. Brewer's contract is prooving to be a touch high. The recent long-term Moreau signing looks like a bit much, Laraque too has been kept around at far too high of a salary & for far too long. And I haven't even begun on the Tommy Salo contract.

Anyhow, Lowe is alright I guess. You can't continue to use the 'Small market club' lines though, when teams such as Minnesota,Vancouver, and Ottawa are screaming past the Oilers as they remain in neutral.

One last thing: While some consider this a good move, I must say, the hiring of Craig MacTavish was perhaps his dumbest move as GM. While I know some guys like him as coach, I personally think he's just not up to snuff. One of the worst coaches in the league, even.

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10-05-2003, 02:37 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Nice post, Lowetide.

I for one am no fan of Lowe's. He has some good sides, but has plenty bad sides to him. I feel he is on the bottom half of the GM Pool. I would rank him ahead of idiots such as Barnett & Mike O'Connell, but behind some of the less-than-shrewd such as Riseborough and McPhee.

Lowe's major weakness is that he's only average in so many areas. He's pretty hit & miss with drafting. He nailed Hemsky it looks like, and did well with Comrie & Semenov. However, there have been a lot of average to poor picks - too many perhaps. His drafting record is spotty, but I would say average.

Trading - one of Lowe's major weakness', I'd say. A good 50% of the time, Lowe seems to outright lose a trade. Worst of all, was the Doug Weight trade which essentially doomed the franchise to mediocrity for a few years. There is no spin on this one, boys and girls. All that's left to show for Doug Weight is Marty Reasoner at the moment. Trades such as the Brewer trades and Guerin trades were not bad considering the circumstances, but certainly not great.

Free agency - Lowe is pretty hit and miss here, too. You're right about Staios - that was a stroke of genius. Unfortunatly, Dopita was a stroke of idiocy.

Lowe's biggest downfall however, is the contract table. Yes, he did well with Smyth this year, but Lowe has had some serious problems. He couldn't get Weight signed when other small market teams have been able to lock up their best players (Ottawa - Alfredsson, Vancouver - Naslund, Calgary - Iginla). He signed Mike Comrie to a stupid contract, regardless of the pressure. Brewer's contract is prooving to be a touch high. The recent long-term Moreau signing looks like a bit much, Laraque too has been kept around at far too high of a salary & for far too long. And I haven't even begun on the Tommy Salo contract.

Anyhow, Lowe is alright I guess. You can't continue to use the 'Small market club' lines though, when teams such as Minnesota,Vancouver, and Ottawa are screaming past the Oilers as they remain in neutral.

One last thing: While some consider this a good move, I must say, the hiring of Craig MacTavish was perhaps his dumbest move as GM. While I know some guys like him as coach, I personally think he's just not up to snuff. One of the worst coaches in the league, even.
Sure, you can say that some small market teams are doing better then the Oilers but guess what. They are all old and at their peeks. Do you think Bertuzzi and Naslund are going to get better? The only place they have to go is down, and that will come in a few years. The wild are full of a bunch of journeymen who are third and fourth liners, If Lemaire wanted to come to Edmonton and coach the Oilers would challenge for the division easily. Ottawa is great. They have been run better then any team in the NHL (not financialy, but as far as the hockey end goes). None of the small market teams that you listed as being better have near as good a future - they are all at their best. As far as the Oilers not drafting well I would have to ask what you are smoking. When Lowe took over the Oilers were probably in the bottom five in the NHL in depth. They had no good prospects, nothing but flop after flop after flop. NOW the Oilers are one of the top ten deepest organizations, and according to HF the Oilers last year were the fifth (I think it was fifth, something like that) best for prospects. You provided no arguement of why you said they aren't good draft, so I'm rather curious what makes you say that.

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10-05-2003, 02:45 PM
  #28
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mizral, If you had made random jabs at your keyboard with your eyes closed and wearing boxing mitts, the law of probability states you would have made more correct statments than you last post. It was completely wrong in every respect and that is an accomplishment.

I feel he is on the bottom half of the GM Pool. I would rank him ahead of idiots such as Barnett & Mike O'Connell, but behind some of the less-than-shrewd such as Riseborough and McPhee.


you meen the high payroll capitols who absolutley sucked last year or the minny team who is 23rd in the leage in developing prospects (the job of an expansion team gm is to build prospcts, any wins are pure bonus). Go to the main board and ask the posters to rank the gm and lowe is in the top 5 of every list.


All that's left to show for Doug Weight is Marty Reasoner at the moment.

don't tell this to stoll or Desaulier


Trades such as the Brewer trades and Guerin trades were not bad considering the circumstances, but certainly not great.


the islanders lose 10 mill a year and somehow hammer is a bargain? Ask boston if they would rather have devo and hemsky instead of watching dollar bill guerin with the stars.

Dopita was a stroke of idiocy

cost the oilers a third round pick. It was a gamble that failed and every gm takes chances every now and then.

He couldn't get Weight signed when other small market teams have been able to lock up their best players

you mean the sens who went bankrupt, the canucks who lost 20 million in two years before last year, and the flames who can't add depth because 1/5 of their payroll is one player?

Anyhow, Lowe is alright I guess. You can't continue to use the 'Small market club' lines though, when teams such as Minnesota,Vancouver, and Ottawa are screaming past the Oilers as they remain in neutral.

you mean minny who has made the playoffs once, the canucks who have 3 players and zero depth afterwords, or ott who benefitted from 5 top 5 picks before defaulting on widows' loans? Those are the model franchises?

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10-05-2003, 02:52 PM
  #29
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Wow, okay, going to cut and paste a bit of your post to address some of the points, hope you don't mind:

Quote:
Originally Posted by thome_26
Sure, you can say that some small market teams are doing better then the Oilers but guess what. They are all old and at their peeks. Do you think Bertuzzi and Naslund are going to get better? The only place they have to go is down, and that will come in a few years.
Maybe, but the Canucks are one of the best young teams in the league. Bertuzzi is 28 - hardly all that old. In fact, Naslund and Bertuzzi are both only halfway through their hockey careers. They have at least 4 - 5 years left of good hockey in them (be it in Vancouver, another NHL team, or Sweden or whatever).

Quote:
The wild are full of a bunch of journeymen who are third and fourth liners, If Lemaire wanted to come to Edmonton and coach the Oilers would challenge for the division easily.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Lemaire didn't have a job when the Oilers were looking for a coach. How is this an excuse? Are you saying Lowe didn't hire the best coach available and shouldn't be accountable for that? Note: The Wild are one of the youngest teams in the league. Don't underrate their youth, their farm team won the Calder Cup last year and was the best team in the AHL!

Quote:
Ottawa is great. They have been run better then any team in the NHL (not financialy, but as far as the hockey end goes).
Agreed.

Quote:
None of the small market teams that you listed as being better have near as good a future - they are all at their best.
Okay, forgive me for not seeing it, but I would suggest that the Wild & Oilers are similar in the youth department, whereas I would say Ottawa & the Canucks have better young players than the Oilers do. I would argue that the future of the Sens, Canucks, and Wild are at least as good as the Oilers. The Sens are filled with great young talent (Hossa, Havlat, Spezza, Redden), the Wild (Gaborik, Shultz, Bouchard, the-still-in-Finland Mikko Koivu, and now camp standout Brook Burns amongst others), and the Canucks (The Sedin Twins, Ed Jovanovski, Mattias Ohlund, Matt Cooke, and Brent Sopel)


Quote:
As far as the Oilers not drafting well I would have to ask what you are smoking. When Lowe took over the Oilers were probably in the bottom five in the NHL in depth. They had no good prospects, nothing but flop after flop after flop. NOW the Oilers are one of the top ten deepest organizations, and according to HF the Oilers last year were the fifth (I think it was fifth, something like that) best for prospects. You provided no arguement of why you said they aren't good draft, so I'm rather curious what makes you say that.
You're right about Glen Sather. He was a horrible drafter, and things haven't improved.. but I still don't feel the Oilers are amongst the top in young prospects - yet. Who's the Oilers top prospect right now? Aside from guys who are going to be playing this season - Jesse Niinimaki? I'm not sure.

I don't mean to say the Oilers are bad drafters. They aren't. But they aren't amazing either. Really, only Comrie of the Lowe picks has shown that he can be a big scorer in the NHL thus far, and the one great pick in Hemsky looks great. The depth in the organization however, is seemingly lacking. The Roadrunners are going to have a tough go of it this year, after leaving Hamilton. The Roadrunners will be one of the weakest teams in the A next year, possibly. That can't be great sounding (though I should note the Albany River Rats [New Jersey Farm Team] never win anything in the AHL but churn out prospects like crazy).

I think there have been some very good picks by the Oilers brass. Hemsky and Comrie as I noted, but I actually feel the best pick that they have made will proove to be young Semenov. And some good other ones such as Deslaurier and Stoll which look good so far.

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10-05-2003, 02:55 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
I for one am no fan of Lowe's. He has some good sides, but has plenty bad sides to him. I feel he is on the bottom half of the GM Pool. I would rank him ahead of idiots such as Barnett & Mike O'Connell, but behind some of the less-than-shrewd such as Riseborough and McPhee.
Risebrough? Boy, you're a tough guy to please. Lowe's in the top 15, I'd say. A quick glance tells me we can put him clear of Pittsburgh, Carolina, Florida, Columbus, San Jose, Nashville, Calgary, NYR, Chicago, NYI, Washington, Boston, Toronto, Tampa Bay, Phoenix, St. Louis.

Is that fair? That's 16 unless I listed someone twice. I won't debate Dallas, Vancouver and a few others, but at a glance I'd say he's just outside the top 10.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Lowe's major weakness is that he's only average in so many areas. He's pretty hit & miss with drafting. He nailed Hemsky it looks like, and did well with Comrie & Semenov. However, there have been a lot of average to poor picks - too many perhaps. His drafting record is spotty, but I would say average.
He didn't draft Comrie, Semenov. His first real draft year was 2001, and since then Hemsky is the only real impact guy. However, Markkanen, Stoll and a few others have made it. It's WAY too early to pass judgement on any of his drafts, but initial signs are very good.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Trading - one of Lowe's major weakness', I'd say. A good 50% of the time, Lowe seems to outright lose a trade. Worst of all, was the Doug Weight trade which essentially doomed the franchise to mediocrity for a few years. There is no spin on this one, boys and girls. All that's left to show for Doug Weight is Marty Reasoner at the moment. Trades such as the Brewer trades and Guerin trades were not bad considering the circumstances, but certainly not great.
The Oilers have finished with 93 points (00-01), 92points (01-02) and 92 points (02-03). Not exactly doomed to mediocrity.

The Weight trade has to be considered in context. Weight was on the verge of being offered a 5 million dollar/season package when Roenick's deal made any negotiation below 8 million impossible. Understanding he was less than a calendar year from ufa, Lowe dealt him to one of two teams Weight stated he would go to. The payoff, while certainly less than full value, has sustained the organization.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Free agency - Lowe is pretty hit and miss here, too. You're right about Staios - that was a stroke of genius. Unfortunatly, Dopita was a stroke of idiocy.
Dopita was a trade, and an attempt to address a weakness. I don't think it was idiocy at all. Didn't work out is all. I think maybe you're expecting perfection when clearly there is none. Burke has made errors too, as I recall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Lowe's biggest downfall however, is the contract table. Yes, he did well with Smyth this year, but Lowe has had some serious problems. He couldn't get Weight signed when other small market teams have been able to lock up their best players (Ottawa - Alfredsson, Vancouver - Naslund, Calgary - Iginla). He signed Mike Comrie to a stupid contract, regardless of the pressure. Brewer's contract is prooving to be a touch high. The recent long-term Moreau signing looks like a bit much, Laraque too has been kept around at far too high of a salary & for far too long. And I haven't even begun on the Tommy Salo contract.
Mizral, Weight was 30. He was an impending ufa. Naslund is at 4.5 (last season) and is 2 years from his ufa contract. Perhaps we can wait until he's a free agent then? That would be a fair comparison to Weight's deal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Anyhow, Lowe is alright I guess. You can't continue to use the 'Small market club' lines though, when teams such as Minnesota,Vancouver, and Ottawa are screaming past the Oilers as they remain in neutral.
Mizral, let me ask you something: were Oilers fans as glib as you are being in this post when their team was winning all those Stanley Cups?

I bet we waited until they won the first one before we acted this righteous.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
One last thing: While some consider this a good move, I must say, the hiring of Craig MacTavish was perhaps his dumbest move as GM. While I know some guys like him as coach, I personally think he's just not up to snuff. One of the worst coaches in the league, even.
I do not understand the reason for your post. Your are way over the line and I find your rantings offensive. This isn't a debate, it's a drive by.

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10-05-2003, 03:00 PM
  #31
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What I'd like to know is since when is Vancouver small market. They never were and never will be. They were never small market when Quinn was GM and now suddenly since Burke took over, they're small maket. Vancouver should not be considered small market ever because they not small market.

Mizral, you forget that whole Guerin trade. The Oilers traded Guerin to the Bruins for Carter plus the option to switch first round picks (Ales Hemsky), a second rounder (Doug Lynch) and future considerations. Hamrlik was traded to the Islanders for Brewer, Green and second round pick (Winchester).

Another thing, Mizral, you're accusing Lowe for draft picks when he wasn't even GM according to your post.

Remember, Mizral, the Canucks are not small market.

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10-05-2003, 03:01 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowetide
I do not understand the reason for your post. Your are way over the line and I find your rantings offensive. This isn't a debate, it's a drive by.
lol

There were some very off points he made, but I don't think he was being a jerk about it. I mean look at ******** people (not calling anybody retarted ok, don't get excited) they make stupid comments all the time, but doens't mean they are offensive, lol. (please don't jump on me about the whole ******** thing either, I have an aunt that i love dearly who is, so don't try and lay some sort of guilt trip on me!)

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10-05-2003, 03:04 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thor dyck
mizral, If you had made random jabs at your keyboard with your eyes closed and wearing boxing mitts, the law of probability states you would have made more correct statments than you last post. It was completely wrong in every respect and that is an accomplishment.
Thanks, I guess.

Quote:
I feel he is on the bottom half of the GM Pool. I would rank him ahead of idiots such as Barnett & Mike O'Connell, but behind some of the less-than-shrewd such as Riseborough and McPhee.


you meen the high payroll capitols who absolutley sucked last year or the minny team who is 23rd in the leage in developing prospects (the job of an expansion team gm is to build prospcts, any wins are pure bonus). Go to the main board and ask the posters to rank the gm and lowe is in the top 5 of every list.
McPhee has GM'd a team beyond the second round of the playoffs, remember. Yes, the Caps are a laughfest now, but they are making strides towards respectability, and have one of the best prospect groupings in the league, lead by the amazing Steve Eminger & the Russian Semin, not to mention a great goaltender they *stole* from Philidelphia in the Adam Oates trade in Oulette.

Riseborough hired a brilliant coach and made it to the conference finals. Who cares where they are in the prospect department? The job of an expansion team is to build prospects? Baloney. The job of ANY hockey team in the league is to win. The Wild have created a winning hockey team in a very short time. That alone is incredibly respectable.

Actually, I seem to recall Lowe wasn't even in the top 10 when that poster did the top 10 ranking. I can't clearly recall it mind you, but I remember he was NOT in the top 5.


Quote:
All that's left to show for Doug Weight is Marty Reasoner at the moment.

don't tell this to stoll or Desaulier
I don't consider draft picks part of a trade, simply because the team that held the draft picks may not have picked the same way.

Quote:

Trades such as the Brewer trades and Guerin trades were not bad considering the circumstances, but certainly not great.


the islanders lose 10 mill a year and somehow hammer is a bargain? Ask boston if they would rather have devo and hemsky instead of watching dollar bill guerin with the stars.
The Isles have had their problems, but Hamrlik has never been part of it. Hamrlik has been a #1 defenseman for so many years and has become part of the elite NHL defenseman. I don't think we can say the same for Brewer.

As for Guerin, well, I said O'Connell was an idiot, didn't I?

Quote:
Dopita was a stroke of idiocy

cost the oilers a third round pick. It was a gamble that failed and every gm takes chances every now and then.
True, but this cost more than a 3rd round pick. Dopita was making a lot of money for half the season, was he not? Plus the buyout eventually cost the Oilers 2/3rds of his remaining contract. Some mistakes are made by every GM, but this one in particular was a pretty bad one.

Quote:
He couldn't get Weight signed when other small market teams have been able to lock up their best players

you mean the sens who went bankrupt, the canucks who lost 20 million in two years before last year, and the flames who can't add depth because 1/5 of their payroll is one player?
No, I mean the Sens who came 1 win from the Stanley Cup Finals, the Canucks who have clearly past the Oilers in just about every department, and the Flames who made sure they kept around the only player who was worth the price of admission.

Quote:
Anyhow, Lowe is alright I guess. You can't continue to use the 'Small market club' lines though, when teams such as Minnesota,Vancouver, and Ottawa are screaming past the Oilers as they remain in neutral.

you mean minny who has made the playoffs once, the canucks who have 3 players and zero depth afterwords, or ott who benefitted from 5 top 5 picks before defaulting on widows' loans? Those are the model franchises?

No, I mean the Minnesota Wild who are becoming, essentially, a license to print money, & the Canucks and Senators who have become better & more lucrative franchises than the Oilers have.

PS: Didn't mean to get in a flame war with you, Thor. However, to argue that the Senators and the Wild are not a model franchise for many teams in this league is nutso. I can tell you right now, if the Oilers could get the fan support & the payroll of the Wild team, along with the winning, they'd do it in a second.

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10-05-2003, 03:16 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowetide
Risebrough? Boy, you're a tough guy to please. Lowe's in the top 15, I'd say. A quick glance tells me we can put him clear of Pittsburgh, Carolina, Florida, Columbus, San Jose, Nashville, Calgary, NYR, Chicago, NYI, Washington, Boston, Toronto, Tampa Bay, Phoenix, St. Louis.

Is that fair? That's 16 unless I listed someone twice. I won't debate Dallas, Vancouver and a few others, but at a glance I'd say he's just outside the top 10.




He didn't draft Comrie, Semenov. His first real draft year was 2001, and since then Hemsky is the only real impact guy. However, Markkanen, Stoll and a few others have made it. It's WAY too early to pass judgement on any of his drafts, but initial signs are very good.




The Oilers have finished with 93 points (00-01), 92points (01-02) and 92 points (02-03). Not exactly doomed to mediocrity.

The Weight trade has to be considered in context. Weight was on the verge of being offered a 5 million dollar/season package when Roenick's deal made any negotiation below 8 million impossible. Understanding he was less than a calendar year from ufa, Lowe dealt him to one of two teams Weight stated he would go to. The payoff, while certainly less than full value, has sustained the organization.



Dopita was a trade, and an attempt to address a weakness. I don't think it was idiocy at all. Didn't work out is all. I think maybe you're expecting perfection when clearly there is none. Burke has made errors too, as I recall.



Mizral, Weight was 30. He was an impending ufa. Naslund is at 4.5 (last season) and is 2 years from his ufa contract. Perhaps we can wait until he's a free agent then? That would be a fair comparison to Weight's deal.




Mizral, let me ask you something: were Oilers fans as glib as you are being in this post when their team was winning all those Stanley Cups?

I bet we waited until we won the first one before we acted this righteous.




I do not understand the reason for your post. Your are way over the line and I find your rantings offensive. This isn't a debate, it's a drive by.
Lowetide's reply cleary shows how misinformed Mizral is and this isn't the first time Mizral has spewed that kind of garbage in the Oilers.

The great thing about these boards is that everybody can voice his or her opinion. Word of advice: In order not to look like a fool, stick to a subject matter you actually know something like your little canucks. If not, this is what happens.

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10-05-2003, 03:18 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thome_26
lol

There were some very off points he made, but I don't think he was being a jerk about it.
I'm really trying not to be a jerk about it!

Anyhow, Lowetide,

Sorry about the mistake of the Semenov/Comrie/Rita draft, I thought that was his. Like I said, you guys do know more about the Oilers than I do.

The fact that the Flames were able to reach into their pockets and shell out 5.5 - 7.5 million for Iginla but the Oilers weren't able to do the same for Weight bothers me though. I feel Weight would still be a 100-point man in Oilers silks right now. And the return was atrocious, no matter how you spin it.

In particular, I wanted to address a list of teams you gave that Lowe can say he's been a better GM than the following clubs you mentioned:

Quote:

Pittsburgh, Carolina, Florida, Columbus, San Jose, Nashville, Calgary, NYR, Chicago, NYI, Washington, Boston, Toronto, Tampa Bay, Phoenix, St. Louis.
Pittsburgh? Craig Patrick has cup rings, my friend. Sure, he's had a rough go of it in Pittsburgh, but that man has, in my opinion, a lot of success. Debatable.

Carolina? Rutherford is, in my opinion, one of the top GM's in the league. Extremely shrewd. Yes, his team had a terrible year last year, but that may very well proove to be the exception. His team has made it to the Stanley Cup Finals, much, much further than Lowe has GM'd the Oilers to.

Florida? Rick Dudley has amassed perhaps the best group of young talent in the league, and the Bolts are only now reaping the benefits. While his workings with Hurme lately are questionable, I feel Lowe is about as good. Debatable.

Columbus? MacLean hasn't really shown me anything other than slam dunks (Nash & reuniting Cassels and Sanderson). I'd rather have Lowe.

Nashville? David Poile has amassed, again, one of the best groups of young players. Still, it's taking too long. Lowe, though Poile may be prooved better in a couple season.

Calgary? Sutter has is new to the job. Too early to tell. Debatable.

New York Rangers? Sather? Blech. Lowe by a landslide.

Chicago? Smithov? Blech. Same as above.

New York Islanders? Milbury? Blech. Same as above.

Washington? McPhee has made it to the SCF's and has put a competing team out there. Payroll or not, his team has done more damage than Lowe's in the post season, albiet in an easy conference. Debatable.

Boston? O'Connell is terrible. I'll take Lowe.

Toronto? Ferguson - too easy to say. Debatable

Tampa Bay? Feaster in his first year had the peices in place to get to the 2nd round. The hiring of coach Torterella (aside from infighting between the two) produced a coach of the year canidate. Feaster is well on pace to blow Lowe away, but it's still a bit too early. Debatable.

Phoenix? Barnett is an idiot. Lowe.

St.Louis? Pleau is.. well. Larry Pleau. This is one of those cases where you can say, 'Considering the payroll.'. This is debatable, but even still, I'll take Lowe.

Anyways, that's 8 guys there that I would say are probobly worse. Maybe a few of the others would be a bit worse, depends on whom you talk to.

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Old
10-05-2003, 03:18 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
PS: Didn't mean to get in a flame war with you, Thor. However, to argue that the Senators and the Wild are not a model franchise for many teams in this league is nutso. I can tell you right now, if the Oilers could get the fan support & the payroll of the Wild team, along with the winning, they'd do it in a second.
ha, to hear somebody talk about the Oilers fan support is commical. The Wild's fan support will dwindle, as they again get used to having a team. If Edmonton didn't have a team for the 90's then all of a sudden were back they'd sell 20k a night. Per capita the Oilers are supported better then any other team in the NHL. So if Mcphee is good cause years ago his team over achieved and got to the finals.... then is Sather still good? And also, the whole financial thing situation and selling tickets would have to be the CEO's (or what ever you would like to call them). Even if the Oilers were highly unlikely to make the playoffs, Laforge has did such a great job of making the Oilers an integral part of Edmonton they'd still have one of the best capacity ratings in the NHL.

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10-05-2003, 03:20 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Dr. van Nostrin
Word of advice: In order not to look like a fool, stick to a subject matter you actually know something like your little canucks. If not, this is what happens.
Excuse me, when did this site become a mensa meeting? These are messageboards for any hockey fan to talk hockey, not for the upper-crust elite. Just because you feel someone is wrong is no reason to say they should not post here.

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10-05-2003, 03:22 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by thome_26
ha, to hear somebody talk about the Oilers fan support is commical. The Wild's fan support will dwindle, as they again get used to having a team. If Edmonton didn't have a team for the 90's then all of a sudden were back they'd sell 20k a night. Per capita the Oilers are supported better then any other team in the NHL. So if Mcphee is good cause years ago his team over achieved and got to the finals.... then is Sather still good? And also, the whole financial thing situation and selling tickets would have to be the CEO's (or what ever you would like to call them). Even if the Oilers were highly unlikely to make the playoffs, Laforge has did such a great job of making the Oilers an integral part of Edmonton they'd still have one of the best capacity ratings in the NHL.

I wasn't talking about the Oilers fanbase.. actually, I feel the OIlers fanbase & the Wild fanbase are quite similar - very rabid hockey fans.

Yeesh, you don't have to get so defensive. I wasn't taking a slam at the Oilers - maybe you boys ought to realize I actually *LIKE* the Oilers, and watch plenty of their games and *gasp* ROOT for them 90% of the time (outside of when they play my Canucks).

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10-05-2003, 03:25 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
The fact that the Flames were able to reach into their pockets and shell out 5.5 - 7.5 million for Iginla but the Oilers weren't able to do the same for Weight bothers me though. I feel Weight would still be a 100-point man in Oilers silks right now. And the return was atrocious, no matter how you spin it.
Yeah but, the Flames have alot less depth than Edmonton now. I'm not saying the Flames are wrong here. Just different philosophies. The Flames chose to throw a bunch of money at Turek and Iginla. The now have, IMO, one of the better lines in the NHL with Conroy-Iginla-McCammond. They don't have awhole lot more.

Edmonton could have gave all that money to Weight, just like Ottawa could have given all that money to Yashin. The Oilers decided that the money would be better spent elsewhere. That doesn't make Lowe a bad GM.

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10-05-2003, 03:26 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
I wasn't talking about the Oilers fanbase.. actually, I feel the OIlers fanbase & the Wild fanbase are quite similar - very rabid hockey fans.

Yeesh, you don't have to get so defensive. I wasn't taking a slam at the Oilers - maybe you boys ought to realize I actually *LIKE* the Oilers, and watch plenty of their games and *gasp* ROOT for them 90% of the time (outside of when they play my Canucks).
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!

That's as funny as I ever heard. If you like them you wouldn't be on here criticizing the GM, the coach and the fans. Nice try.

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10-05-2003, 03:28 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. van Nostrin
Yeah but, the Flames have alot less depth than Edmonton now. I'm not saying the Flames are wrong here. Just different philosophies. The Flames chose to throw a bunch of money at Turek and Iginla. The now have, IMO, one of the better lines in the NHL with Conroy-Iginla-McCammond. They don't have awhole lot more.

Edmonton could have gave all that money to Weight, just like Ottawa could have given all that money to Yashin. The Oilers decided that the money would be better spent elsewhere. That doesn't make Lowe a bad GM.

It alone doesn't make Lowe a bad GM, but I still feel he could have gotten much more. I mean, if Hamrlik got, say, Timmander (not sure if he was an Isle then) and Green, would you say the same thing?

You are right that it's just a different philosophy, but imagine if say, you had the Flames top line and Button hadn't completely screwed up in other areas, and was able to draft a litter better & make a deal for depth along the way. Heck, imagine if Lowe was able to find the money to lock up Weight long term somewhere along the line at, say, the expect of a Laraque & a Moreau?

I don't think the Yashin comparison is a good one though, Yashin was absolutely hated in Ottawa. The public forced that trade.

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10-05-2003, 03:30 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Oilers89
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!

That's as funny as I ever heard. If you like them you wouldn't be on here criticizing the GM, the coach and the fans. Nice try.
I can still like the teams & not like management.

I have NEVER critisized the fans of Edmonton. I've been to Edmonton many a time, it's one of the best hockey cities in the NHL. I don't know where you got that idea.

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10-05-2003, 03:33 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Mizral
I can still like the teams & not like management.

I have NEVER critisized the fans of Edmonton. I've been to Edmonton many a time, it's one of the best hockey cities in the NHL. I don't know where you got that idea.

Mizral, why do you feel Craig MacTavish is one of the worst coaches in the NHL, as you stated earlier? I have my own opinions on him, but would like your input.

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10-05-2003, 03:34 PM
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Paying Iginla 7.5M per season and Turek more than 4.0M per season is insane. If Iginla ever goes down with injury, who's gonna replace him? Paying someone 7.5M per season is pushing it when a team runs into injury which always happens. No team goes through a season without injury. Remember the amount of injuries the Oilers had last season. The depth they had in Hamilton helped them survice during the time of their injury crisis and this despite sharing their farm team with Montreal. I'd rather have depth than a 7.5M hockey player. Despite having Iginla, the Flames still haven't made the playoffs for 7 years.

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10-05-2003, 03:37 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Excuse me, when did this site become a mensa meeting? These are messageboards for any hockey fan to talk hockey, not for the upper-crust elite. Just because you feel someone is wrong is no reason to say they should not post here.
LOL...Good one. You got me there.

All I'm saying is that if I go and post something on the Canucks board and I know it's going to stir up some discussion, I going to make damn sure I know what I'm talking about, that's all. It has nothing to do with the upper-crust elite

Back to hockey. Again, you say that it's highly unlikely the Oilers will make the playoffs. Although I respect your opinion, I really don't know how you can say highly unlikely. As an Oiler fan, I am going in to the season knowing that it will not be easy for them to make the playoffs. Do I think they have a chance, of course. Why? Because year after year, this team is discounted every pre-season and never given a chance. Year after year, they lose top notch talent and still manage to keep on making the playoffs.

So I guess I confused as to why it's unlikely that they will miss the playoffs. History says they have a chance and probably more than a 50-50 chance after this year's pre-season. But again, it is your opinion.

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10-05-2003, 03:43 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
I don't think the Yashin comparison is a good one though, Yashin was absolutely hated in Ottawa. The public forced that trade.
Wrong. The public hated Gandler, not Yashin. Yashin was cheered when he played in Ottawa. He was extremely popular and people who met him only had good things to say about. All my buddies here are Sens fans and they all agree that Yashin was a victim of bad advice. The fans here new that Gandler was pulling the strings.

The Sens chose to spend the 6 or 7 million Gandler wanted on Alfredsson, Bonk, Hossa, etc...It's all about long-term forcasting and not making personel decisions that will impact the future.

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10-05-2003, 03:58 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilers89
What I'd like to know is since when is Vancouver small market. They never were and never will be. They were never small market when Quinn was GM and now suddenly since Burke took over, they're small maket. Vancouver should not be considered small market ever because they not small market.

Mizral, you forget that whole Guerin trade. The Oilers traded Guerin to the Bruins for Carter plus the option to switch first round picks (Ales Hemsky), a second rounder (Doug Lynch) and future considerations. Hamrlik was traded to the Islanders for Brewer, Green and second round pick (Winchester).

Another thing, Mizral, you're accusing Lowe for draft picks when he wasn't even GM according to your post.

Remember, Mizral, the Canucks are not small market.
You have to remember that 55% on the Vancouver population is from Asian decent and they haven't become true hockey nuts yet. Time will mend that though - and I do see a lot of hockey jersey's on the asian crowd now. So whereas there is almost unanimous support for hockey in Edmonton - there isn't close to as much in Vancouver. Mostly bandwagoners and people being fans because "Bertuzzi is cute".

Also - the lack on Stanley Cups in Vancouver has left nothing for people to look back upon as inspiration for the future.

So although Vancouver is a 3 Million person city - and hardly a small market - it sometimes feels like it.

Wait a second? Am I defending a comment made by MIZRAL!? It must be the weekend

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10-05-2003, 04:01 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by nikeisevil
You have to remember that 55% on the Vancouver population is from Asian decent and they haven't become true hockey nuts yet. Time will mend that though - and I do see a lot of hockey jersey's on the asian crowd now. So whereas there is almost unanimous support for hockey in Edmonton - there isn't close to as much in Vancouver. Mostly bandwagoners and people being fans because "Bertuzzi is cute".

Also - the lack on Stanley Cups in Vancouver has left nothing for people to look back upon as inspiration for the future.

So although Vancouver is a 3 Million person city - and hardly a small market - it sometimes feels like it.

Wait a second? Am I defending a comment made by MIZRAL!? It must be the weekend
What's confusing is under Pat Quinn they were never small market and now under Brian Burke they are. What's the difference?

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10-05-2003, 04:06 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Oilers89
What's confusing is under Pat Quinn they were never small market and now under Brian Burke they are. What's the difference?
They spend more money now

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10-05-2003, 04:08 PM
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They payroll from what I heard should be close to 40M, hardly small market.

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