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Old
10-06-2003, 10:00 AM
  #126
Lowetide
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Kevin Lowe received Marty Reasoner for Doug Weight.
Good grief. The deal was:

Jochen Hecht
Marty Reasoner
Jan Horacek

for Doug Weight.

Hecht scored 16 goals in his season as an Oiler, many of us felt he should have gotten more pt and pp time. He was certainly far from poor, but when an opportunity to get a quality player (Stoll) and a young G prospect (Deslauriers) he made the move.

Hecht is a good player, and certainly at the time had value.

Mizral, I know you say you're an Oiler fan, but you'll forgive me if I don't believe you.

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10-06-2003, 10:05 AM
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowetide
Good grief. The deal was:

Jochen Hecht
Marty Reasoner
Jan Horacek

for Doug Weight.

Hecht scored 16 goals in his season as an Oiler, many of us felt he should have gotten more pt and pp time. He was certainly far from poor, but when an opportunity to get a quality player (Stoll) and a young G prospect (Deslauriers) he made the move.

Hecht is a good player, and certainly at the time had value.

Mizral, I know you say you're an Oiler fan, but you'll forgive me if I don't believe you.
for Doug Weight and Michael Riesen.*correction*
Mizral I also doubt ur an Oilers fan u ALWAYS take the pessimist side versus optomist side in any and every Oiler matter

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10-06-2003, 10:11 AM
  #128
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mizral is an oiler fan. the nucks are his favourite team and the oilers are his third favourite team.

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Old
10-06-2003, 12:11 PM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
Yeah, posts on the Trades Board is such a good indication of a player's trade value...
Of course not- but is that even what we're talking about?

We're basically talking about perception here, right? The perception that Lowe hasn't gotten full value in trades, the perception that Lowe is perhaps over-rated, the perception that maybe he gets a free pass from Edmonton fans. So as I see it, the current *over-rating* of Anson Carter is right on target. It's a given that after the eventual Mike Comrie trade, a lot of people will be saying that Lowe got fleeced- and many of the people saying it will be ones currently saying "Comrie is the new Mike Danton" or "Comrie is a poor-man's Marc Savard" etc etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
Varada played in the top-6 (he became their #2 LW behind Arvedson), and Johnson-Walz-Gaborik was Minnesota's first line during the playoffs, and regardless, if you look at their depth chart, Johnson is definately in their top-6. I guess Bouchard is an exception to this rule, though, as he spent the season as their 13th forward.

If you'll remember, May was brought back at the trade deadline last season, and was actually once traded over salary issues long before that. Anyways, we won't be paying him that much, per se, until next season - at which point it would be rather inaccurate to call Vancouver a small market team.
I really don't care where any of them slot in the line-up- Varada, Johnson, and May are all the spitting image of bottom-six forwards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
...either way, he ended up on the 4th line, which I'll wager wasn't what Lowe intended.
I'll just reiterate my earlier statement- if you're judging that trade based on the first 12 games, you're making a mistake. York was an example why. And howcome we haven't mentioned Torres yet?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
Oh hell yes. The gap between Battaglia and Isbister is infinitely smaller than the gap between Niinimaa (a legit #1) and Smith (an overpaid, older #4). Also, at least Battaglia has some past success to his credit - a great playoff run and far more consistency over his career. Isbister has always been an enigma, since day 1.
Battaglia is 2 years older, 30 pounds smaller, and struggles to break into double-digits in goal scoring. Greeeeat playoff warrior there, too- I bet the Avs were very excited about his post-season ASSIST.

Isbister is a guy the Oilers have rightly or wrongly wanted for a long time, and Torres is a high-quality prospect. Both have the potential to be key players on the kind of team Lowe is trying to build.

You'll also notice that Lowe has been getting rid of guys nearing 30 to bring in guys 26 and under. The Oilers have been building for post-2004 for several years. The group that Lowe's put together should be nearing their prime after the lockout. And the Oilers are probably positioned better than most teams in the league for the likely event that the new CBA lowers the UFA age.

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10-06-2003, 12:26 PM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
Well, TSN.ca doesn't seem to list his contract. Regardless - $1.2 million is still too much for a player of Moreau's calibre. Between that salary and George Laraque's salary - go to any other small-market team and show me bottom-6 forwards that earn that type of money, let alone two. Not in Buffalo. Not in Tampa Bay. Not in Florida. Not in Ottawa. In Calgary they have Yelle, but that's because Craig Button is even worse than Kevin Lowe. No-one like that in Minnesota. Yes, Ethan Moreau is a nice heart&soul guy to have around - but not at his price. Hell, look at Tampa Bay, signing Dave Andreychuk at $800 000...he's a comparable locker room presence to Moreau (if not better), gets similar ice-time, is much more productive, and much, much cheaper. That's the kind of contract Lowe has to sign, and he's done it a few times in the past (Staios), he doesn't do it nearly frequently enough.
I'm going to add a few players to this list...
Curtis Brown makes 1.5 mil for buffalo. (A player of Moreau's calibre...)
Oleg Saprykin of Calgary makes about 1 mil. (he's a little different, he has "top 6 potential)
Brad May makes 1.1 mil
Varada makes I think 975,000
So 1.2 mil for Moreau isn't all that bad (IMO.)
(this is small market teams only, I'm not talking about big market teams that massively overpay for bottom6 guys (Brashear, Simon, etc.))

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10-06-2003, 12:29 PM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
Oh hell yes. The gap between Battaglia and Isbister is infinitely smaller than the gap between Niinimaa (a legit #1) and Smith (an overpaid, older #4). Also, at least Battaglia has some past success to his credit - a great playoff run and far more consistency over his career. Isbister has always been an enigma, since day 1.
Anybody think the Oilers could have gotten Vrbata out of the Avalanche for Smith before Lacroix pulled the Battaglia for Vrbata deal?

Btw, I think it would have been stupid for the Oilers to do ANY deal w/ the Avalanche. They might have PLAYED each other in the playoffs for God's sake. You don't trade playoff warriors to people that might burn you in 20 games or so.

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10-06-2003, 02:07 PM
  #132
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Money plays a part in all Oiler trades, that's just a fact of life. Instead of looking at players, you have to take a look at the player and length of rights the Oilers own.

For example, the Dougie Weight trade was

Weight (1 year - i think), Reisen

Horacek, Hecht (panned out to Deslauriers and Stoll) and Reasoner.

We were not trading Dougie weight, but the remainder of his contract which was only ONE year left for what turned out to be three prospects and a 2nd/3rd line centreman. Not bad for one year's service net. Edmonton could not afford the next Doug Weight contract, so that's all we were going to get for him.

Same thing with Guerin. We didn't trade a 5 year affordable contract with Guerin, just another 1 year contract and we knew that we could not afford the next contract. So getting Hemsky, Carter and Lynch is a HUGE steal of a deal for Lowe in my books. Especially considering that Guerin left Boston soon after for Dallas.

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Old
10-06-2003, 02:36 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowetide
Good grief. The deal was:
Mizral, I know you say you're an Oiler fan, but you'll forgive me if I don't believe you.
You know that line reminds me of the movie "The Little Princess."

Mrs. Minchin comes upstairs and talks to Sara and Sara just stares at her. When she's finished, Mrs. Minchin asks her, "Did you hear me?" Sara answers, "Yes I heard you but I don't believe it."

__________________
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10-06-2003, 04:05 PM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neogeo69
Money plays a part in all Oiler trades, that's just a fact of life. Instead of looking at players, you have to take a look at the player and length of rights the Oilers own.

For example, the Dougie Weight trade was

Weight (1 year - i think), Reisen

Horacek, Hecht (panned out to Deslauriers and Stoll) and Reasoner.

We were not trading Dougie weight, but the remainder of his contract which was only ONE year left for what turned out to be three prospects and a 2nd/3rd line centreman. Not bad for one year's service net. Edmonton could not afford the next Doug Weight contract, so that's all we were going to get for him.

Same thing with Guerin. We didn't trade a 5 year affordable contract with Guerin, just another 1 year contract and we knew that we could not afford the next contract. So getting Hemsky, Carter and Lynch is a HUGE steal of a deal for Lowe in my books. Especially considering that Guerin left Boston soon after for Dallas.

Not to mention that we could never win with those guys because it wasn't enough and the prospect pool was pretty much empty. Even if we had re-signed them like Iginla in Calgary there just wasn't anybody to play with them that could take them more than 2 rounds (max) in the playoffs. Lowe is not interested in having a good team. He wants to build a winner. What I find so exasperating is that the criticisms of Lowe are always for the things he has done well whereas we know as Oiler fans that he has also screwed up his share. But I am convinced that the reason we get all this unsolicited and unwanted advice from Vancouver and Toronto is because neither city has ever seen a winner built from the ground up and really just have no idea what Lowe is trying to do. All your core players have to mature together in order to build a long term winner and you need character guys in the dressing room as well as on the ice. We still have missing pieces but there is no doubt in my mind that we are closer to a cup than when we had Hamrlik, Weight, & Guerin because we would never win with them. They made us a good team (like Toronto has had the last few years though not as good) but these are not guys who can take you to championships for various and different reasons. As soon as Lowe arrived at that conclusion he set about trying to trade them for a mixture of now and future. Have all the trades been gems. I don't think so. But the vision and the guts to do it sets him apart as a winner and as he becomes more experienced he will make fewer mistakes and still have the vision of what it takes to win it all. That is a vision that comes from having been there and is why the rings on his fingers and MacTavish's are not just jewellery. They want to win and it isn't about their egos. That would make them quite different from a couple of other GM/coach combos that come to mind.

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Old
10-06-2003, 06:42 PM
  #135
Mizral
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FacelessButcher
for Doug Weight and Michael Riesen.*correction*
Mizral I also doubt ur an Oilers fan u ALWAYS take the pessimist side versus optomist side in any and every Oiler matter
Not true! And very unfair.

I am one of the biggest fans of Ethan Moreau on this board. I was one of the few posters who stuck up for him when Wings fans said he wasn't even worth a 4th round pick.

I commended the Oilers for the selection of Marc-Andre Pouliot, a great pick, good young player.

I've always been a huge Ryan Smyth fan. I actually said he was more talented than people realized - in so much that he doesn't just rely on grit and hard word - when many raked me over the coals for it.

I have said many times that Mike York is much better than even Oilers fans give him credit for.

I actually like the Dvorak trade, like Cross, and feel Dvorak will go back to the 30 goal range.

Jason Chimera is one of my favorite prospects in the league!

There are a lot of things I like about the Oilers. There are a few things I don't like about them either. I guess I just happen to post more about the things I don't like here, that's all.

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10-06-2003, 06:47 PM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Not true! And very unfair.
There are a lot of things I like about the Oilers. There are a few things I don't like about them either. I guess I just happen to post more about the things I don't like here, that's all.
ok

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10-06-2003, 07:01 PM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
I commended the Oilers for the selection of Marc-Andre Pouliot, a great pick, good young player.
Here's a few items you posted with regard to Pouliot on your last visit:

MIZRAL
Pouliot is a fine player, certainly a very good one for Rimouski. However, Parise is clearly on another level. Leading point-getter for his team in the WJC's, phenomenal point-getter in North Dakota of the NCAA, highest points-per-game in his age-group (yes, even higher than young Heatley in Atlanta). Has displayed courage and heart in the thick of things, has hockey bloodlines with his father JP Parise. I very much like Pouliot, as I have said before, and was hoping the Canucks could have selected him at the draft. However, make no mistake, Parise is clearly the more talented of the two, and almost assuredly going to make the bigger NHL impact.

Later, more Mizral to another poster:
I do quite a bit of research on prospects (I will be writing prospect reports for a well known website shortly, even), and I catch as many games as I can of the top 30 players in NA. Pouliot and Parise were two guys I certainly have seen play. I can only assume you have not, as the arguement that lowetide originally posted and you reiterated is, in my mind (no offense here), ridiculously inept, shortsighted, and a total lack of thought or research. It is as silly to me as relying on depth charts or compensation to figure out player value.




Here's the link to the original thread:

http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.p...t&pagenumber=1


Mizral, you are a moderator and I find your posts offensive. There are ways to get a point across without being demeaning and implying others are less intelligent than you.

I do not think that is the case.

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Old
10-06-2003, 07:10 PM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowetide
Mizral, you are a moderator and I find your posts offensive. There are ways to get a point across without being demeaning and implying others are less intelligent than you.

I do not think that is the case.
Hey, let's keep the dirty laundry hidden, shall we?

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Old
10-06-2003, 07:51 PM
  #139
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I beg to differ, I think Burke is a splendid GM. His trade for Jovo, getting the Sedin twins who have upside still, signing Sami Salo and Arvedson, moving vets to make room for young prospects like Allen, and having a really good mix of vets and young players. The team infront of us right now has 2 superstar forwards Naslund and bert, superstar in Jovo, former superstar Ohlund and trading for super solid Marek Malik(whom we should have gotten), and Sopel at times looking like a guy with too much hair on his head for a hockey helmut but an offensive threat all the time. This team is solid and can only get better. Their finances are troubled right now in debt, however they are making money over the past year. The only reason they lost money in the last few quarters is because they were building GM place.

 
Old
10-06-2003, 08:02 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowetide
Mizral, you are a moderator and I find your posts offensive. There are ways to get a point across without being demeaning and implying others are less intelligent than you.

I do not think that is the case.
Hey, be careful or he'll get all sensitive again

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10-06-2003, 08:25 PM
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowetide
Here's a few items you posted with regard to Pouliot on your last visit:
...
Here's the link to the original thread:

http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.p...t&pagenumber=1
...
Thanks for the link and reminder. That thread was priceless

By the time I got to it that a while ago ... that thrad was already huge. So I read through pretty much all of it in one go. Just hilarious, laugh out loud funny, I couldn't believe the way some of you (especially you and Eddie) just kept trying to apply common sense, and hopelessly. Incredible patience ... though both of you sounded pretty frayed by the end of it

I remember thinking that you guys really needed a 'banging your head on a wall' emoticon.

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10-06-2003, 09:06 PM
  #142
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Just to summarize my thoughts on this thread without bother to go back through all the Tolstoy-length posts that started popping up...


I was pretty outspoken against the idea of trading Niinimaa at the time. I was dead set against acquiring Brad Invisibister at the time. Then again, I didn't like the Hamrlik deal or the Guerin deal at the time either. What it comes down to is this: I think that the guy sitting in the GM's chair has earned some trust during his time on the job.

Lowe has gone from NHL player to NHL coach to NHL GM in a very short span of time, without making intermediate stops (or did he spend a year as Ron Low's assistant coach? I can't recall.) We've been watching Lowe's on-the-job training at the sport's highest level in probably the most challenging market in the NHL. And while some of the contracts he's signed have been maybe a little high and maybe some of the deals he's made could have yielded slightly better returns, but that's debateable. Overall, Lowe has kept the team on track.


Lowe has been working at making the team bigger, faster, meaner, and younger. Aside from a couple of veterans (Staios, Cross) brought in cheaply, I believe that all of the Lowe acquisitions currently on the roster are 26 or younger- and I don't think that's just a coincidence, I believe that's been done with an eye on the upcoming CBA. Lowe has dealt away guys who may have been too meek (Poti), too mellow (Carter), or not intense enough (Hamrlik, Cleary), and brought in guys who are (with the exception of Isbister) a pretty lunchpail group. There's nobody on this roster that won't pay the price.

So, while I'm not a fan of every move that Lowe has made (particularly trading Niinimaa) I do like the overall direction. He's developing talent, and bringing in the kind of veterans that fit the profile he wants this team to have.

Some people in this thread have said the Oilers are just treading water- no they're not. They have a direction.

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10-06-2003, 09:06 PM
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Lowe's major weakness is that he's only average in so many areas. He's pretty hit & miss with drafting. He nailed Hemsky it looks like, and did well with Comrie & Semenov. However, there have been a lot of average to poor picks - too many perhaps. His drafting record is spotty, but I would say average.
So Lowe drafted Comrie did he? To criticize Lowes drafting prowess is to invite a rebuttalso PLEASE....tell me Burkes a genius when he drafts the Sedin girls back to back in the top 5. NOw thats pathetic. even the worst Gm's you mentioned could do better than those two picking twice that close to the top. In fact.....my grandmother could have drafted better that year.....and shes been dead for 6.

Quote:
Trades such as the Brewer trades and Guerin trades were not bad considering the circumstances, but certainly not great.
dumping Hamrlik who went on to make $2.5 - almost $3 a year and getting back our future captain, an all star, and Team Canada member was poor trading? Give your head a shake! As for Guerin...whats he making now? Last I heard it was $9 mill per.Yeah Edmonton should have signed him....Do a favor and fill me in on what a wonderful signing Cloutier has been for you though please.LMAO!Last I looked he wasnt capable of carrying your team so you had to go out and get another mediocre guy from Pittsburgh.


Quote:
Lowe's biggest downfall however, is the contract table. Yes, he did well with Smyth this year, but Lowe has had some serious problems. He couldn't get Weight signed when other small market teams have been able to lock up their best players (Ottawa - Alfredsson, Vancouver - Naslund, Calgary - Iginla). He signed Mike Comrie to a stupid contract, regardless of the pressure. Brewer's contract is prooving to be a touch high. The recent long-term Moreau signing looks like a bit much, Laraque too has been kept around at far too high of a salary & for far too long. And I haven't even begun on the Tommy Salo contract.
BS. Lowe max'd the offers to Weight at $5.3.He turned it down for $8 mill in St Louis. Your precious Canucks got lucky with the timing of Naslunds contract before he started putting up the big numbers and you havent had to deal Bertuzzi yet. That oughta be fun huh? Try $7 mill minimum under the current CBA.
Dont blame Lowe for his unwillingness to pay out the stupid bucks like Iginla is making. Let me ask you something.Who looks stupid now?The Flames for giving Iginla $6 mill a year and not making the playoffs or the Oilers losing Weight and making them 2 of 3? You should really try posting about something you're more boned up on bud.
Brewers contract is just fine thanks.$2.3 for him isnt too much but let me say that what you're paying Jovo cetainly is in comparison.Moreau took a 4 year contract that steadily decreases his yearly salary thru to its expiration starting at $1.5 mil per. How is that a bad contract?

Quote:
Anyhow, Lowe is alright I guess. You can't continue to use the 'Small market club' lines though, when teams such as Minnesota,Vancouver, and Ottawa are screaming past the Oilers as they remain in neutral.
Hello. Vancouver and Ottawa both have higher payrolls than the Oilers in fact I belive your precious but underachieving Nucks are close to $40 mil arent they?Wonder where the Nucks would be if they'd had to sign Bertuzzi in the last two years.Plus neither has won any more Stanley Cups in the past 3 years than the Oilers.I guess the Nucks winning one more playoff round this past sprng was worth it though huh?LOL.
Screaming past the Oilers? To what.Be bumped in the second round?Wow.Newsflash for ya pal.If you were running a business would you want the same results achieved for less money or do you think it makes sense to look fashionable while spending the big bucks for nothing?Thats what you're really saying here I think because for all those wonderful players in the Nucks organization (of which they number 4) including your one good line,you havent achieved much more than the Oilers have.Meanwhile Lowe and company have sold out Skyreach to 97% capacity the past 3 years.We all know when Ottawa and Vancouver started having crowds like that skippy.It was when you finally started having decent seasons in Vancouver and Ottawa could barely sell the place out last year.

You should spend a little less time in Oilfans picking up your negative Oiler rhetoric and stick to your homer Nuck boards because when it comes right down to it you know precious little about any other team but your own.You arent even that well boned up on them either to tell the truth.

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10-06-2003, 09:18 PM
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
I'm really trying not to be a jerk about it!

Anyhow, Lowetide,

Sorry about the mistake of the Semenov/Comrie/Rita draft, I thought that was his. Like I said, you guys do know more about the Oilers than I do.
Dont worry about it. Between the 2 boards you and I frequent I'm so used to non stop mistakes from you its comical. And yes we do know more about the OIlers than you do.....toss in Calgary,St Louis, New York, Florida and 25 other teams too.Whatta maroon.

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10-06-2003, 10:19 PM
  #145
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One of the more igorant posts in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mowthecat
So Lowe drafted Comrie did he? To criticize Lowes drafting prowess is to invite a rebuttalso PLEASE....tell me Burkes a genius when he drafts the Sedin girls back to back in the top 5. NOw thats pathetic. even the worst Gm's you mentioned could do better than those two picking twice that close to the top. In fact.....my grandmother could have drafted better that year.....and shes been dead for 6.
*shrug* The Sedin twins are easily the best of the top-10 in that draft, and frankly the fact that you think they have plateaued displays nothing but your sheer idiocy and lack of understanding.

Quote:
dumping Hamrlik who went on to make $2.5 - almost $3 a year and getting back our future captain, an all star, and Team Canada member was poor trading? Give your head a shake! As for Guerin...whats he making now?
Hey, you won't hear a peep from me about moving both Hamrlik and Guerin. Both were great moves.

Quote:
Do a favor and fill me in on what a wonderful signing Cloutier has been for you though please.LMAO!Last I looked he wasnt capable of carrying your team so you had to go out and get another mediocre guy from Pittsburgh.
Cloutier? Hey, he did better than Salo last season, who made more than four times as much as he did. He also isn't signed long-tern, unlike Salo, so he can be thrown away rather easily should he not show significant improvement this year.

Hedberg's a poor choice for backup? Don't know where you got that idea. Any time you get a middle-of-the-pack starter as your backup, it's a positive.

Quote:
BS. Lowe max'd the offers to Weight at $5.3.He turned it down for $8 mill in St Louis. Your precious Canucks got lucky with the timing of Naslunds contract before he started putting up the big numbers and you havent had to deal Bertuzzi yet.
Burke got lucky on the Naslund contract? It came after his first forty-goal season, and he has been able to use it to leverage a uniform salary structure down the payroll. Interesting how Burke's good moves are being credited to "luck" (and when did this become a Burke-bashing thread?)

I love how everyone is crying that soon Burke will be contractually burned by Bertuzzi - there isn't a shred of evidence anywhere to suggest that Brian Burke can't keep core players signed - he has done it consistently since day 1. The biggest holdout? Third-line winger Peter Schaefer...the return on his trade? Top-4 defenceman. Somehow we'll move on.

Quote:
That oughta be fun huh? Try $7 mill minimum under the current CBA.
Dont blame Lowe for his unwillingness to pay out the stupid bucks like Iginla is making. Let me ask you something.Who looks stupid now?The Flames for giving Iginla $6 mill a year and not making the playoffs or the Oilers losing Weight and making them 2 of 3? You should really try posting about something you're more boned up on bud.
Brewers contract is just fine thanks.$2.3 for him isnt too much but let me say that what you're paying Jovo cetainly is in comparison.Moreau took a 4 year contract that steadily decreases his yearly salary thru to its expiration starting at $1.5 mil per. How is that a bad contract?
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Hello. Vancouver and Ottawa both have higher payrolls than the Oilers in fact I belive your precious but underachieving Nucks are close to $40 mil arent they?Wonder where the Nucks would be if they'd had to sign Bertuzzi in the last two years.Plus neither has won any more Stanley Cups in the past 3 years than the Oilers.I guess the Nucks winning one more playoff round this past sprng was worth it though huh?LOL.
Team budgets, 2002-2003:

Code:
Ottawa 	     $28.5 million
Edmonton   $31.5 million
Vancouver  $32.3 million
Can we end this sham about Edmonton not being able to compete budget-wise? Both Ottawa and Vancouver boosted payroll in the off-season, yes - the root cause of that is last season both did more with less and hence went further in the playoffs. When one extra round nets you $10-$12 million more...it makes a significant difference when counted against the bottom line.

Yes, both Vancouver and Ottawa are screaming ahead of Edmonton - both teams have significantly improved over the past few seasons while (and here's the important bit) retained key players as they have done so, and even improved in key areas (by how much is debatable, certainly, but moves were made). True, Vancouver did not have much more playoff success than Edmonton, but Vancouver did not lose the likes of Anson Carter and Janne Niinimaa as the season ended, and Todd Marchant in the off-season and have always been, at the end of every season under Brian Burke, poised for more success. Whatever losses there were have been replaced by smart UFA signings (fun fact, Ethan Moreau makes just as much as Magnus Arvedson next season, and Jason Smith makes the same as Zdeno Chara), or smart trades with a level of consistency Kevin Lowe can't touch.

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We all know when Ottawa and Vancouver started having crowds like that skippy.It was when you finally started having decent seasons in Vancouver and Ottawa could barely sell the place out last year.
How does this make Lowe a good GM? Pointless sniping.

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You should spend a little less time in Oilfans picking up your negative Oiler rhetoric and stick to your homer Nuck boards because when it comes right down to it you know precious little about any other team but your own.You arent even that well boned up on them either to tell the truth.
...whereas you demonstrate an ability to not know anything about any team in the league. Well done.

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10-07-2003, 04:28 AM
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
He also isn't signed long-tern, unlike Salo, so he can be thrown away rather easily should he not show significant improvement this year.
Sorry to interrupt but just want to point out a few inaccuracies if I may. Salo is not signed long term at this point. He's in the last year of a 3 year deal with two CLUB options for the upcoming 2 years.

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Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
Burke got lucky on the Naslund contract? It came after his first forty-goal season, and he has been able to use it to leverage a uniform salary structure down the payroll. Interesting how Burke's good moves are being credited to "luck" (and when did this become a Burke-bashing thread?)
While the contract of Nazzy is a good one and I certainly do credit Brian Burke for that signing.. You can't compare it with the Weight situation. Naslund was WILLING to take less to stay with club and cooperated in that fashion. Weight did not and wanted 8 million dollars that the team could not afford. It has NOTHING to do with bargaining strategies. Fact is, Naslund wanted to stay in Vancouver and took a paycut to do that. Weight did not. You're going to have a tough time convincing me Brian Burke could have convinced him differently

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
Can we end this sham about Edmonton not being able to compete budget-wise? Both Ottawa and Vancouver boosted payroll in the off-season, yes - the root cause of that is last season both did more with less and hence went further in the playoffs. When one extra round nets you $10-$12 million more...it makes a significant difference when counted against the bottom line.
Well, there's really no sham here. The Canucks and the Sens are able to increase their payroll and the Oilers simply cannot. We have not multi-million dollar owners willing to eat a fair bit of a loss for winning. Our owners (all 37 of them) are just businessmen. Making an extra round in the playoffs really won't change much for us. We break even with one playoff appearance as it is.

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Old
10-07-2003, 05:24 AM
  #147
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this became a burke bashing thread when mizral compared lowe to him. lets compare the two's drafting record as that was brought up by mizral.
Burke has had at least a year to prepare for 5 drafts, lowe has had three. Burke has drafted zero impact players in spite of having 6 first round picks including a second and third overall, lowe has at least one (hemsky) and his highest pick was 13th overall (traded for it i the guerin deal).

At this point, it looks like 3 burke picks will be in the nhl this year, the sedins and Brandon Reid. SO far, 6 of lowes guys have either played or will play this year.

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10-07-2003, 05:36 AM
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thor dyck
this became a burke bashing thread when mizral compared lowe to him. lets compare the two's drafting record as that was brought up by mizral.
Burke has had at least a year to prepare for 5 drafts, lowe has had three. Burke has drafted zero impact players in spite of having 6 first round picks including a second and third overall, lowe has at least one (hemsky) and his highest pick was 13th overall (traded for it i the guerin deal).

At this point, it looks like 3 burke picks will be in the nhl this year, the sedins and Brandon Reid. SO far, 6 of lowes guys have either played or will play this year.
Make that "at least" 4. Artem Chubarov is a Burke pick.

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10-07-2003, 06:14 AM
  #149
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Can I ask a few questions here?

1. How come the Weight and Bure trades are being compard?

It's not like the circumstances are at all similar or anything. But aside from that, we haven't even seen the full impact of these trades yet. Sure, Jovo is awesome, which means the trade worked out for the Nucks... can we at least see how the Weight trade turns out for Edmonton first? I mean based on "perceived value" at the time of each of the trades, the Oilers aren't getting anything worse than Jovo was at the time.... just something a little younger, meaning it will take more time. If JDD can be a solid starting goalie in a few years, that alone will be worth the value of the Weight trade.

2. How can you compare the 2 teams?

I mean the core players (top 6 forwards, 4 Defencemen and Goaltender) are this:

Edmonton: Comrie (23), Smyth (27), York (25), Hemsky (20), Dvorak (26), Isbister (26), Brewer (24), Smith (29), Staios (30), Semenov (22) and Salo (32)

Avg Age:25

Vancouver: Morrison (28), Sedin (23), Sedin (23), Bertuzzi (28), Naslund (30), Linden (33), Jovo (27), Ohlund (27), Salo (29), Sopel (26) and Cloutier (27)

Avg Age: 27

The oilers are about 2 years in behind in terms of development of their core players, yet finsihed only 14 points back. 14 points is a lot, but I would also like to point out that the Oilers blew a tonne of games this year because of their inability to keep a lead, and a lot of that can be attributed to inexperience.

K-Lo didn't build a team to win the cup in 2003. If that were the case, then yeah, he wouldn't have been doing a very good job. But he isn't building for now, nor would it make sense for him to have. This is his 4th season on the job, and before that he inherited a team that had a great 1st line, a solid defence, a great goalie, 2 3rd lines and a 4th line. This team also had virtually nothing in the cupboard in terms of prospects, and the average age for these guys was around 27-28, and who if you look at their salaries now, demand a payroll of approx $60 mil a season.

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Old
10-07-2003, 06:20 AM
  #150
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Originally Posted by Ironchef Chris Wok
Make that "at least" 4. Artem Chubarov is a Burke pick.
chubarov was picked in the 1998 draft. Burke was hired as GM on June 22nd, 1998 and the draft was held on June 27th. It is very safe to assume that Quinn had little or no input into the draft just like lowe had no input into the 2000 draft as he was hired in the days prior to it as well.

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