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Is Messier a top-5 All-Time player?

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09-13-2005, 10:37 PM
  #1
kmad
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Is Messier a top-5 All-Time player?

Team 1040 (local radio station) all morning, upon hearing of Messier's official retirement, continued to say he was a top 5 player of all time (the other four obviously Howe, Gretzky, Orr and Lemieux).

Does anyone here agree? I mean, there's an argument if you consider intangibles, but for it to be unanimous that Messier was better than Harvey, Lafleur, Bossy, Dionne, Potvin, Trottier, Beliveau, Richard, Morenz.. I just can't fathom that.

Any second opinions?

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09-13-2005, 10:38 PM
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Oh jesus, who cares?

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09-13-2005, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmad
Team 1040 (local radio station) all morning, upon hearing of Messier's official retirement, continued to say he was a top 5 player of all time (the other four obviously Howe, Gretzky, Orr and Lemieux).

Does anyone here agree? I mean, there's an argument if you consider intangibles, but for it to be unanimous that Messier was better than Harvey, Lafleur, Bossy, Dionne, Potvin, Trottier, Beliveau, Richard, Morenz.. I just can't fathom that.

Any second opinions?
Being a huge Oilers fan and a huge Messier fan, I must say NO!

People who say Messier is a top 5 player all time simply do not have much knowledge of the history of the NHL.

Messier shakes out around 20-30 in the rankings.

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09-13-2005, 10:41 PM
  #4
kmad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moneyp
Oh jesus, who cares?
not you, apparently

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Messier shakes out around 20-30 in the rankings.
I'd say it's simply media hype. If he hadn't retired recently, nobody would be touting him as a top five.

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09-13-2005, 11:19 PM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Being a huge Oilers fan and a huge Messier fan, I must say NO!

People who say Messier is a top 5 player all time simply do not have much knowledge of the history of the NHL.

Messier shakes out around 20-30 in the rankings.
I agree that he is not top 5. But he also is higher than merely 20-30.

I would say he should be somewhere between 10 and 15.

The Hockey News once ranked him 11th or 12th, or something like that. I think that position is quite appropriate for Messier on an all-time list.

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09-13-2005, 11:48 PM
  #6
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I am obviously a Flames fan but how the heck is Messier in the 20 to 30 range? I just don't get how the Points (2nd overall), only player to be the Captain on two Cup teams, 6 Cups all together, 2 Harts plus other awards. In my opinion he is top 10 probably top 5. To say he is in the 20 - 30 range is just to funny.

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09-13-2005, 11:49 PM
  #7
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I don't believe he fits in to that exclusive top-five or so players in NHL history, but rather falls just short, in the tier below. He's been an outstanding player for a quarter century through a rapidly changing league, which is something only a select few can say they've accomplished. He falls short of those like Gretzky, Lemieux, and Orr because their talents were above and beyond anything that the NHL has ever seen, while Messier's were a cut below. Still, he had a tremendous career, and I would definitely rank him in the top 25 of all time, but I would probably not put him in my top five. Not far off mind you, but not quite in that group.

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09-14-2005, 12:01 AM
  #8
felixd
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I'd definitely put Richard, Beliveau, Bossy, Lafleur ahead of him....so for me Messier is in at about 9

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09-14-2005, 12:03 AM
  #9
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If Messier is not in the top 10, 20, 25 or 30. Who is ahead of him?

Gretzky
Howe
Orr
Richard

Are obvious great players... but I would have a tough time naming another 21 guys that are ranked higher then Messier.

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09-14-2005, 12:05 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felixd
I'd definitely put Richard, Beliveau, Bossy, Lafleur ahead of him....so for me Messier is in at about 9
I agree with Richard but I would not put any of the rest higher than Messier.

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09-14-2005, 12:09 AM
  #11
felixd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flambers
I agree with Richard but I would not put any of the rest higher than Messier.
So for me Messier is about 9th overall ever, for you he's about 6th overall ever, for another poster he's about 25th ever...it's all subjective anyway, there is no definitive list. Some people argue Lemieux over Gretzky, some people argue Orr over Gretzky, and I've definitely heard great arguments here in Quebec for putting Richard as 1 overall. Kind of a moot point

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09-14-2005, 12:24 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmad
Does anyone here agree? I mean, there's an argument if you consider intangibles, but for it to be unanimous that Messier was better than Harvey, Lafleur, Bossy, Dionne, Potvin, Trottier, Beliveau, Richard, Morenz.. I just can't fathom that.

Any second opinions?
It's hard to say, really.

Messier's numbers and individual accomplishments are every bit as impressive or better than all those players. He was more durable and effective as a player for a much greater period than most of those players listed. While most players breaking in in the late 70s and early 80s generally declining and retiring in their early 30s, Messier lasted into his mid 40s. Also, you can make the argument that the competition Messier faced in the 90s and 00s is superior physically to competition of the past when you consider things like size, conditioning, training, etc. But then you could also say that Messier's numbers were inflated because of the high scoring 80s and early 90s, that he played with Gretzky in Edmonton for 4 of his 6 cups.

It's tough, but I do think that Messier should be in the top 10, if not the top 5.

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09-14-2005, 12:28 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flambers
I am obviously a Flames fan but how the heck is Messier in the 20 to 30 range? I just don't get how the Points (2nd overall), only player to be the Captain on two Cup teams, 6 Cups all together, 2 Harts plus other awards. In my opinion he is top 10 probably top 5. To say he is in the 20 - 30 range is just to funny.
You just haven't researched hockey history.

Wayne Gretzky
Gordie Howe
Bobby Orr
Mario Lemieux
Maurice "Rocket" Richard
Eddie Shore
Bobby Hull
Jean Believeau
Ray Bourque
Doug Harvey
Phil Esposito
Stan Mikita
Cy Denneny
Howie Morenz
Jaromir Jagr
Guy Lafleur
Bill Cowley
Cecil " Babe" Dye


These 18 players all had greater careers than Messier so he is #19.

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09-14-2005, 01:26 AM
  #14
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Jagr, no way is he ''greater'' than Messier. Statistically, he's better, far inferior in other respect. No Smythe, half the Harts, inferior D and physical game, one-third the Cups and captain of none of them, he was never naked in front of Gary Coleman, and nobody's going to tell their grandchildren about Mullet Power, they'll tell them about the guaranteed victory and the hat trick, among other true heroics. I can't see an NHL GM taking 10-15 prime years of Jagr over 10-15 prime years of a true warrior. Not if they want to win as many Stanley Cups as possible.

There's a few other guys there I disagree with, mainly Cowley and Mikita, but they're definitely all valid though, I can accept everybody else on that list except Jagirl.

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09-14-2005, 01:37 AM
  #15
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Top 5? No. Gretzky, Orr, Howe, Lemieux and Richard are the consensus among those in the know. (Gretzky, Howe and Orr are usually in the top three, and their order is dependent on who you talk to. Lemieux is a consensus fourth - a drop from the top three but not much of one - and Richard is another drop from five). I'd say he's somewhere between 11 and 20 for the all-time great players, and between 5th and 10th among centres. (Behind Gretzky, Mario, Beliveau and Esposito. Tough call between Messier, Clarke, Trottier, Morenz and Mikita).

PS: I think this thread might be better served in the History of Hockey forum.

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Old
09-14-2005, 01:48 AM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
You just haven't researched hockey history.

Wayne Gretzky
Gordie Howe
Bobby Orr
Mario Lemieux
Maurice "Rocket" Richard
Eddie Shore
Bobby Hull
Jean Believeau
Ray Bourque
Doug Harvey
Phil Esposito
Stan Mikita
Cy Denneny
Howie Morenz
Jaromir Jagr
Guy Lafleur
Bill Cowley
Cecil " Babe" Dye


These 18 players all had greater careers than Messier so he is #19.
I think if I had to choose careers, I'd take Messier's six Cup rings, 1 Conn Smythe Trophy (really, the most important individual award of them all), 2 Hart Trophies and a reputation for hard-nosed, physical play and leadership; over Jagr's two Cups (which came early in his career, and he wasn't nearly as valuable in any of them as Messier was in his six), 1 Hart Trophy, multiple Art Ross Trophies and reputation for surly, aloof and lazy behaviour. In fact, ask any player in the game who had the greater career and which career they'd rather have, they'll take Messier.

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09-14-2005, 02:07 AM
  #17
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Wayne Gretzky
Bobby Orr
Mario Lemieux
Patrick Roy
Maurice Richard
Gordie Howe
Jean Beliveau
Jacques Plante
Terry Sawchuk
Phil Esposito
Bobby Hull
-----------------------(IMO these player are in top of my list, before Messier)
In the same category ...

Mark Messier
Dominik Hasek
Guy Lafleur
Stan Mikita
Howie Morenz
Vadislav Tretiak
Martin Brodeur (at the end of his career)
Steve Yzerman (?)
Eddie Shore
Raymond Bourque
Mike Bossy
Doug Harvey
-----------------------
Some will argue to put on the list above:

Bobby Clarke
Denis Potvin
Glenn Hall
Georges Vézina
Larry Robinson
Red Kelly
Ted Lindsay
Joe Malone
Valeri Kharlamov
Harry Cameron
Cy Dennedy

(I know I forgot some!)

(I edit to put Howe on my list, I know I forgot one!!!)



To conclude, I would put Messier on Top 20, probably between 15 and 18.


Last edited by EagleBelfour: 09-14-2005 at 03:59 PM.
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Old
09-14-2005, 02:10 AM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Bill Cowley
Cecil " Babe" Dye
Even if they are amazing players, I don't see them close to Messier ... and I think no one will argue that.

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Old
09-14-2005, 02:14 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
You just haven't researched hockey history.

Wayne Gretzky
Gordie Howe
Bobby Orr
Mario Lemieux
Maurice "Rocket" Richard
Eddie Shore
Bobby Hull
Jean Believeau
Ray Bourque
Doug Harvey
Phil Esposito
Stan Mikita
Cy Denneny
Howie Morenz
Jaromir Jagr
Guy Lafleur
Bill Cowley
Cecil " Babe" Dye


These 18 players all had greater careers than Messier so he is #19.
LOL Jaromir Jagr, Cy Denneny, Cecil Dye, Bill Cowley, and Guy Lafleur have not had better careers than Messier's 6 Stanley cups, 2 Hart trophies, Conn Smythe trophy, and 2nd most carreer points.

Hah, Cy Denneny a better career than Messier...

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09-14-2005, 05:55 AM
  #20
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by numbers...

# -- POS -- "HHOF Monitor" Points -- Player
==================================
001 -- C -- 8827,02 -- Gretzky Wayne
002 -- R -- 6171,61 -- Howe Gordie
003 -- D -- 4664,82 -- Bourque Ray
004 -- C -- 4586,35 -- Lemieux Mario
005 -- C -- 4253,44 -- Beliveau Jean

006 -- C -- 4096,48 -- Esposito Phil
007 -- D -- 4037,97 -- Orr Bobby
008 -- R -- 3829,98 -- Richard Maurice
009 -- L -- 3671,88 -- Hull Bobby
010 -- C -- 3583,61 -- Mikita Stan

011 -- D -- 3467,36 -- Harvey Doug
012 -- R -- 3237,64 -- Jagr Jaromir
013 -- G -- 3235,65 -- Roy Patrick
014 -- G -- 3221,51 -- Hasek Dominik
015 -- G -- 3155,64 -- Hall Glenn
016 -- R -- 3060,04 -- Lafleur Guy
017 -- G -- 3036,02 -- Plante Jacques
018 -- C -- 3030,49 -- Messier Mark
019 -- D -- 2958,37 -- Coffey Paul
020 -- D -- 2925,27 -- Kelly Red


Last edited by pnep: 09-14-2005 at 06:56 AM.
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Old
09-14-2005, 06:03 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour
Wayne Gretzky
Bobby Orr
Mario Lemieux
Patrick Roy
Maurice Richard
Jean Beliveau
Jacques Plante
Terry Sawchuk
Phil Esposito
Bobby Hull
-----------------------(IMO these player are in top of my list, before Messier)
No Howe

IMO Lemieux is 2nd no injuries and he would be up there with Gretzky. But I'm biased

Messier, I agree with most in here, around 10th place.

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09-14-2005, 07:45 AM
  #22
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No love for Bossy?

I think he was the purest goal scorer ever

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09-14-2005, 07:55 AM
  #23
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I'd say somewhere between 10 and 15.

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09-14-2005, 07:58 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi
LOL Jaromir Jagr, Cy Denneny, Cecil Dye, Bill Cowley, and Guy Lafleur have not had better careers than Messier's 6 Stanley cups, 2 Hart trophies, Conn Smythe trophy, and 2nd most carreer points.

Hah, Cy Denneny a better career than Messier...
You mean the Guy Lafleur who won 5 Stanley Cups, 3 Art Ross trophies, 2 Hart trophies, 1 Conn Smythe trophy and 3 Lester B. Pearson trophies?

Maybe he didn't have Messier's longevity, but Guy Lafleur is very comparable to him.

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09-14-2005, 08:05 AM
  #25
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why was howe considered so good. the only reason he scored so many points was because he played so many seasons. Esposito outscored him regularly. I think Orr is 2nd best judging by his stats.

my top 3 are

Gretzky
Orr
Lemieux

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