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Is Messier a top-5 All-Time player?

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Old
09-14-2005, 05:56 PM
  #51
monster_bertuzzi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Yes, those players did have better careers than Messier did.
No, they didn't.

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09-14-2005, 05:56 PM
  #52
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Player -- HART -- HART Runner Up -- 1 ALL STAR -- 2 ALL STAR -- ART ROSS -- ART ROSS RU -- RICHARD R U -- CONN SMYTHE
================================================== ==============================
Jagr Jaromir -- 1 -- 4 -- 6 -- 1 -- 5 -- 1 -- 3 -- 0

Messier Mark -- 2 -- 1 -- 4 -- 1 -- 0 -- 1 -- 0 -- 1

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Old
09-14-2005, 05:57 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
You just haven't researched hockey history.

Wayne Gretzky
Gordie Howe
Bobby Orr
Mario Lemieux
Maurice "Rocket" Richard
Eddie Shore
Bobby Hull
Jean Believeau
Ray Bourque
Doug Harvey
Phil Esposito
Stan Mikita
Cy Denneny
Howie Morenz
Jaromir Jagr
Guy Lafleur
Bill Cowley
Cecil " Babe" Dye


These 18 players all had greater careers than Messier so he is #19.
Says the guy who excludes all players from the Islanders/Oilers dynasties except for Wayne Gretzky. Just because a player is old doesn't mean he was great. The idea of Cy Denneny being better than Bossy, Potvin, Messier, or any number of other more recent players is laughable.

In my book Messier isn't in the top 5. He's behind Gretzky, Orr, Howe, Lemieux and Lafleur in my book.

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Old
09-14-2005, 06:13 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi
No, they didn't.
It might help your cause to offer something a little more tangible to back your argument.

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09-14-2005, 06:16 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Henry I
Says the guy who excludes all players from the Islanders/Oilers dynasties except for Wayne Gretzky. Just because a player is old doesn't mean he was great. The idea of Cy Denneny being better than Bossy, Potvin, Messier, or any number of other more recent players is laughable.

In my book Messier isn't in the top 5. He's behind Gretzky, Orr, Howe, Lemieux and Lafleur in my book.
The Isles and Oilers greats do come in closely after Messier. Coffey, Potvin, Trottier and Bossy are all in the 20-25 range on the list.

Please, tell my what you know about Cy Denneny and why it is laughable that his career was greater than Bossy, Potvin or Messier? Do you know anything about Denneny at all?

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09-14-2005, 06:18 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pnep
Player -- HART -- HART Runner Up -- 1 ALL STAR -- 2 ALL STAR -- ART ROSS -- ART ROSS RU -- RICHARD R U -- CONN SMYTHE
================================================== ==============================
Jagr Jaromir -- 1 -- 4 -- 6 -- 1 -- 5 -- 1 -- 3 -- 0

Messier Mark -- 2 -- 1 -- 4 -- 1 -- 0 -- 1 -- 0 -- 1

Those that say Messier had a greater career than Jagr please explain the above numbers.

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Old
09-14-2005, 06:33 PM
  #57
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Messier VS Jagr



Player -- GAMES -- G -- A -- PTS -- GWG
===============================
Jagr Jaromir -- 1027 -- 537 -- 772 -- 1309 -- 93
Messier Mark -- 1756 -- 694 -- 1193 -- 1887 -- 92


Player Name -- PO GMS -- PO GLS -- PO AST -- PO PTS -- PO GWG
================================================== ==
Jagr Jaromir -- 146 -- 67 -- 87 -- 154 -- 14
Messier Mark -- 236 -- 109 -- 186 -- 295 -- 12

Player Name -- CUPS -- FINAL -- All Stear Games
========================================
Jagr Jaromir -- 2 -- 0 -- 9
Messier Mark -- 6 -- 1 -- 16

Player -- TOP 10(G) -- #1(G) -- #2 (G) -- TOP 10 (A) -- #1 (A) -- #2 (A) -- TOP 10 (PTS) -- #1(PTS) -- #2(PTS)
================================================== ======================================
Messier Mark -- 4 -- 0 -- 0 -- 8 -- 0 -- 1 -- 6 -- 0 -- 1
Jagr Jaromir -- 9 -- 0 -- 3 -- 8 -- 3 -- 1 -- 10 -- 5 -- 1



Player -- HART -- HART Runner Up -- 1 ALL STAR -- 2 ALL STAR -- CONN SMYTHE
================================================== ==============================
Messier Mark -- 2 -- 1 -- 4 -- 1 -- 1
Jagr Jaromir -- 1 -- 4 -- 6 -- 1 -- 0

jagr > messier
imho...


Last edited by pnep: 09-14-2005 at 06:44 PM.
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Old
09-14-2005, 07:03 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pnep
Messier VS Jagr



Player -- GAMES -- G -- A -- PTS -- GWG
===============================
Jagr Jaromir -- 1027 -- 537 -- 772 -- 1309 -- 93
Messier Mark -- 1756 -- 694 -- 1193 -- 1887 -- 92


Player Name -- PO GMS -- PO GLS -- PO AST -- PO PTS -- PO GWG
================================================== ==
Jagr Jaromir -- 146 -- 67 -- 87 -- 154 -- 14
Messier Mark -- 236 -- 109 -- 186 -- 295 -- 12

Player Name -- CUPS -- FINAL -- All Stear Games
========================================
Jagr Jaromir -- 2 -- 0 -- 9
Messier Mark -- 6 -- 1 -- 16

Player -- TOP 10(G) -- #1(G) -- #2 (G) -- TOP 10 (A) -- #1 (A) -- #2 (A) -- TOP 10 (PTS) -- #1(PTS) -- #2(PTS)
================================================== ======================================
Messier Mark -- 4 -- 0 -- 0 -- 8 -- 0 -- 1 -- 6 -- 0 -- 1
Jagr Jaromir -- 9 -- 0 -- 3 -- 8 -- 3 -- 1 -- 10 -- 5 -- 1



Player -- HART -- HART Runner Up -- 1 ALL STAR -- 2 ALL STAR -- CONN SMYTHE
================================================== ==============================
Messier Mark -- 2 -- 1 -- 4 -- 1 -- 1
Jagr Jaromir -- 1 -- 4 -- 6 -- 1 -- 0

jagr > messier
imho...
Again, numbers reflective of the REGULAR SEASON. Some of these arguments look like they were drawn from Billy Bean's Moneyball. (For those not aware, Bean is the very capable but slighly misguided general manager of the Oakland As. He uses a stats based system for evaluating talent, which has resulted in several division titles/wildcard births, but doesn't incorporate intangibles, leadership or character, which has caused the downfall of his team in the playoffs). Nowhere in these comparisons between Jagr and Messier do I see mention of number of years as captain, number of underachieving seasons, and I see very little mention of the most important evaluator of all: playoff success. While number of Cups won can't always be the determining factor in greatness, Messier did play a pivotal role in winning all six of his Cups. He was also strong for the Oilers and Rangers in several other playoff runs. To me, that's where he wins out over Jagr, and many other players in that group between 11 and 25.

IMO, Messier's Conn Smythe in 1983 trumps his two Hart Trophies or his two Pearson Trophies. (Ask players which means more, and they'll argue the Pearson, because it's voted on by the players). The regular season is when most awards are won. The playoffs are when careers and legacies are built, and Messier's playoff record has been surpassed by few.

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Old
09-14-2005, 07:14 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
(Ask players which means more, and they'll argue the Pearson, because it's voted on by the players).
Player -- Pearson
==============
Jagr -- 2
Messier - 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
nowhere do I see mention of the most important fact of all: playoff success.
Player Name -- PO GWG
================================================== ==
Jagr Jaromir -- 14
Messier Mark -- 12

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09-14-2005, 07:16 PM
  #60
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Player -- HHOF Monitor points
============
Jagr -- 3237,64 (#9 FW)
Messier -- 3030,49 (#11 FW)


Last edited by pnep: 09-14-2005 at 07:25 PM.
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Old
09-14-2005, 07:30 PM
  #61
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Messier ranks in the top 10

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Old
09-14-2005, 07:31 PM
  #62
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One stat for playoff success? That's it? Again, your arguments have been all about stats. Nothing about leadership. Nothing about physical play. Nothing about defensive play. Just stats. Nothing about the role a player played in winning his Cups. Nothing about how Jagr's production in the playoffs declined in almost every year.

The beauty of hockey is it's not just about numbers. To use stats as the only evaluating tool is a mistake. To make most of your evaluations based on the regular season is an even graver error.

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Old
09-14-2005, 07:37 PM
  #63
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ok
Messir VS Jagr (by numbers only)

Jagr > Messier

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Old
09-14-2005, 07:43 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
You just haven't researched hockey history.

Eddie Shore
Bobby Hull
Ray Bourque
Phil Esposito
Stan Mikita
Cy Denneny
Howie Morenz
Jaromir Jagr
Guy Lafleur
Bill Cowley
Cecil " Babe" Dye

These 18 players all had greater careers than Messier so he is #19.
How did you come to the conclusion that Messier's accomplishments were less than these players?

Bill Cowley was a good hockey player in the 30s and 40s, and granted I haven't seen him play. He won a couple of Hart Trophies and the Stanley Cup a couple of times. He was no doubt a great Bruin, but just reading hockey history, it's debatable whether or not he was even the best Bruin of the period when you consider Dumart, Schmidt and Bobby Bauer on the Kraut Line. This is historical hyperbole on your part, or it's just bs.

Cecil Dye: how can you say that he was a better player than Messier or had a better career based on hearsay. Nobody has seen him play so we can't make a comparison based on what we've seen on the ice. He was a prolific scorer for his day, but he didn't play a quarter of a century in the NHL, he didn't score almost 2000 points, he didn't win multiple Hart Trophies, or 6 Stanley Cups. You could have easily included Fred Cyclone Taylor, Frank Finnigan, George Hainsworth, Joe Malone or Howie Morenz for obscure hockey references, and it would have been just as useless. Oh wait, you did include Morenz.

Eddie Shore: a benchmark of defensive greatness, won four Hart Trophies and 3 Stanley Cups. Played in an era of 44 game seasons in a league where 6'0" was considered to be big. I don't want to undermine Shore's accomplishments here, but Mark Messier played more than THREE TIMES the amount of NHL games that Shore did and maintained a dominant level of play for much of that time. Messier won 2 Hart Trophies in the Lemieux/Gretzky era and 6 Stanley Cups.

Jaromir Jagr: he might have more offensive skill than Messier, and he may have scored prettier goals or won more scoring titles than Messier, but how meaningful were those exploits when you consider that Messier had 6 Cups to Jagr's 2? Also, Mark Messier was either leading the charge or right behind Gretzky for all those cup wins while Jagr was an 18 and 19 year old on teams stacked with Ron Francis, Paul Coffey, Mark Recchi, Kevin Stevens and some guy by the name of Mario Lemieux. I reject the notion that Jagr had a better career than Messier.

Stan Mikita and Bobby Hull: Mikita and Hull each accomplished a lot individually with their multiple Art Ross Trophies and Hart Trophies in the 1960s, but his Blackhawks of the period were the biggest underachievers in the history of the NHL. The Hawks were stacked up front and in goal, and were arguably better than the Leafs or Canadiens, yet they managed to win all of one Stanley Cup. That's complete underachievement. Mikita scored a lot of points in the 70s as well, but the Hawks didn't win squat. Hull defected to the WHA where his stats were inflated like crazy. These two guys had great careers, but with their lack of winning, I don't think anybody can make the case that they had better careers than Messier, who accomplished much in the way of individual awards as well as team success, unless you think Hull's Avco Cups mean more than Messier's Stanley Cups.

Guy Lafleur: a fantastic hockey player with 6 Cups, 3 Art Ross Trophies, 2 Hart Trophies and 2 Pearson awards. Messier: 6 Cups, 2 Hart Trophies, 2 Pearson awards and a Conn Smythe Trophy. Messier was much more durable and he had more longevity. Lafleur had the better peak years. I think we're splitting hairs here.

Phil Esposito: the only player with more goals than Messier on your list. Boy did he score a lot, but Messier was no slouch either and Messier won 6 cups, Esposito won 2 on a stacked Bruins team.

Ray Bourque: A great defenseman for the ages, but he only won his cup with the Avalanche as a hired gun and not as the main man. Coincidentally, the 2 times he came closest to winning the cup with the Bruins, his championship dreams were dashed by the Edmonton Oilers, Messier's team.

Cy Denneny: Are you related to Cy Denneny? I'm not doubting that his accomplishments were great for his era, but to say he had a greater career or was a better player than Messier is just hard to phathom considering the differences between the two eras. Denneny played in a little over 300 games over a 14 year span, and he won 4 cups. Fantastic achievements. But he played in a much smaller league, he played against players who were probably around 5'8," he played in an era where the game was much simpler. He played against the best Canadian players for the most part. Messier played almost 6 times the amount of league games that he did, won 6 cups in 15 years in a much bigger league against much bigger competition from Canada, the United States, the former USSR, Czechoslovakia, Finland, Sweden, etc. I don't see how Denneny's accomplishments really measure up to what Mark Messier has accomplished in his. And let's be honest, you have no idea how Denneny looked on the ice. You're only looking at hockey stats.


Last edited by Stephen: 09-14-2005 at 08:06 PM.
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Old
09-14-2005, 07:55 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
but how meaningful were those exploits when you consider that Messier had 6 Cups to Jagr's 2
Jean GuyTalbot (7 Cups + 4 Finals) Better than Messier?

Don Metz (5 +1) better than Marcel Dionne (0 + 0) ?


Last edited by pnep: 09-14-2005 at 08:20 PM.
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09-14-2005, 08:04 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pnep
Jean GuyTalbot (7 Cups + 4 Finals) Better than Messier?
That's a ******** comparison.

Did Jean Guy Talbot play 25 years in the NHL?

Did Jean Guy Talbot win 2 Hart Trophies, a Conn Smythe, countless all star appearances, and participate in Canada Cup wins?

Did Jean Guy Talbot play in 1700+ NHL games, or is he second overall in all time scoring?

Did Jean Guy Talbot play a leading role in those 7 cup wins?

Did he captain two different teams to Stanley Cups?

When you compare Messier to the likes of Hull, Mikita, Esposito, Shore, etc, who were similarly dominant players as Messier, the question of championships is used to set Messier apart: he accomplished a lot for himself, and as a part of a team. It's not some pointless count of Stanley Cup wins.

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09-14-2005, 08:06 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pnep
ok
Messir VS Jagr (by numbers only)

Jagr > Messier
But I'm not concerned about numbers. So what? Jagr put up better numbers. Numbers aren't everything. But as an overall player, who got the job done when it counted, Messier was significantly better than Jagr. For those reasons, I'd take Espo, Lafleur, Trottier and Clarke ahead of Jagr, too.

Stanley Cups aren't everything. Randy Gregg and Charlie Huddy have five Cup rings, and I don't think anyone's clamoring for their induction into the Hall. I'm not going to hold it against Bourque that he only won one Cup, as he was never on a team with a legit chance at the Cup until he got to Colorado. It's the roll you play in winning those Cups, or how you play in the playoffs. Messier was a critical player in all six of his Cup victories. He has a Conn Smythe. Jagr was a critical part of one of his Cup championships. (1992 was probably the only year Jagr legitimately stepped his play up in the playoffs). Plus, Messier had several years where he didn't win the Cup, but was still an excellent player.

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09-14-2005, 08:12 PM
  #68
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Messier's career is far more impressive than Bossy's, Lafleur and Jagr's. He was more dominant over the ice than any of the aforementioned by a country mile.

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09-14-2005, 10:23 PM
  #69
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The Moose is easily top 5.

Gretz, Mario, Orr, Howe, Messier.

6 cups, 2nd in points and games. What a stud.

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09-14-2005, 10:24 PM
  #70
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I love Jagr, hense my name on here 'big jags' but get serious if you think he's better than Messier.

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09-14-2005, 10:39 PM
  #71
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As happens with any player comparison thread, people take the "fan favorite" and kick the facts to the curb. That is fine, to each his own.

The facts clearly back Jagr (pnep's posts) but people prefer the physical, Canadian, cult hero to the aloof, stand off-ish European. People would rather remember Messier winning the Smythe in '84 or his playoff guarantee in '94 than Jagr's 5 scoring titles and dominance of the 90s. That is OK.

I am a big Messier fan myself, I even have a picture of him on the wall in my office. I have no picture of Jagr, I am not a really a fan of his. But, when I see the facts I have to draw the obvious conclusion that Jagr has had the greater career.

Yes, Messier is the fan favorite because it is in vogue to be a tough, Canadian, leader but, Jagr has accomplished some greater things during his time in the NHL.

I have neither the time or the desire to debate this any further so, hang on to your memories of the Moose and remember that his was a phenomenal hockey player.

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09-14-2005, 10:40 PM
  #72
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I don't think he is.

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Old
09-14-2005, 11:05 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoBell
Not even close.

Lemieux
Gretzky
Orr
Roy
Lafleur
You can't seriously have Roy and Lafleur ahead of Howe...?

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Old
09-14-2005, 11:18 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
As happens with any player comparison thread, people take the "fan favorite" and kick the facts to the curb. That is fine, to each his own.

The facts clearly back Jagr (pnep's posts) but people prefer the physical, Canadian, cult hero to the aloof, stand off-ish European. People would rather remember Messier winning the Smythe in '84 or his playoff guarantee in '94 than Jagr's 5 scoring titles and dominance of the 90s. That is OK.

I am a big Messier fan myself, I even have a picture of him on the wall in my office. I have no picture of Jagr, I am not a really a fan of his. But, when I see the facts I have to draw the obvious conclusion that Jagr has had the greater career.

Yes, Messier is the fan favorite because it is in vogue to be a tough, Canadian, leader but, Jagr has accomplished some greater things during his time in the NHL.

I have neither the time or the desire to debate this any further so, hang on to your memories of the Moose and remember that his was a phenomenal hockey player.
Facts? Pnep provided mostly regular season production. As stated before, playoff success is what careers and legacies are built around. A Conn Smythe Trophy (the trophy that matters the most) and a key role in SIX Stanley Cup championships. He also provided leadership and physical play that Jagr never could.

If you think regular season points are all that counts, then you'll pick Jagr. But hockey is more than just points, and the regular season is just a drop in the water in terms of relevance compared to the playoffs. Ask 100 NHL players who the better player was, and most will pick Messier. Ask 100 players whose career they'd rather have, and they'll all pick Messier.

And note: I'm not playing favourites. As stated in other threads, I am not a Messier fan in the least. (We're talking about a guy who manipulated the Ranger locker room in an effort to get Roger Neilson fired). Great leader who could carry his team on his back for extended periods of time? Yes. Class act? No. Top five player? No.

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09-14-2005, 11:38 PM
  #75
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Not a chance.

Top Players Ahead of Messier:

Orr
Gretzky
Lemeiux
Howe
Richard
Beliveau
Lafleur
Harvey

Arguably:

B.Hull
Morenz
Sawchuk
Potvin
Dionne
Trottier
Sakic
Esposito
Kelly
Mikita
Bourque
Hall
Yzerman
Shore

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