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Is Messier a top-5 All-Time player?

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Old
09-15-2005, 07:48 PM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Saying Rocket Richard isn't better then Moose is pretty ignorant to say the very least. Both great leaders but Rocket was the best player of a decade which Moose never was as well as the best goal scorer before Bossy came along. Both great leaders but I'd take Rocket's clutch play over Moose's anyday of the week.

Beliveau was better then Messier as well. Dont let the stats fool you kid. Beliveau was a class act, a smooth stride with great stickhandling and incredible play making skill certainly better then Messier in that respect. Both great Leaders but Beliveau was slightly better. Also hard to argue against Beliveau's 10 cups.

Lafleur is the one people get the wrong impression of the most if they have never watched him play in his prime. Yeah 1353 points is not that impressive but 6 straight 50 goal seasons (which only Gretzky, Bossy and Esposito have done) and 6 straight 120 or more points seasons, 3 pearson trophies, 3 art ross trophies, 2 hart trophies, a conn smythe, leading his team to 5 stanley cups is something Messier could dream of. How many 50 or more goal seasons this moose have? 1? What about 120 or more point seasons? Here we go again only once! So get your facts straight kid. Oh and let's not forget how Lafleur got 1000 points in only 720 games a record at that time.

Oh and dont think for one second that saying he's the second most points getter of all time means he's top 5 or else Ron Francis and Marcel Dionne would be as well.
Right, I forgot.. you saw Lafleur play in his prime... But you never saw Dionne play (odd, since he's from the same class as Viagara Pimp), so why are yoiu commenting on him??

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Old
09-15-2005, 07:59 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Messier was a fantastic hockey player no doubt. But top 5? Dont think so...

I would put Messier 8th in the top forwards of all time list behind Lemieux Gretzky Richard Howe Beliveau Lafleur and Hull.

I would rank Messier 4th in the top centers of all time list behind only Lemieux Gretzky and Beliveau

I would rank Messier 4th in the best leaders of all time list after Beliveau Rocket and Yzerman.

I would rank Messier 4rd in the best overall players of all time list after Howe, Trottier and Gainey.

Finally I would rank Messier around 12th or 13th on the best players of all time list after Orr Lemieux Gretzky Howe Rocket Lafleur Beliveau Hasek Roy Hull, Harvey and Eddie Shore.

Wow, a new record for You take the Russians adoration of Gainey far too seriously... You want to argue his place as a defensive forward, go ahead. But BEST OVERALL player number THREE??? That is number one on the list of ridiculous, assinine statements ever made on these boards. [FONT=Tahoma]:"So go sit on your mothers lap and have a drink of your own milk, kid"[/FONT]

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09-15-2005, 08:29 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Bucky
Right, I forgot.. you saw Lafleur play in his prime... But you never saw Dionne play (odd, since he's from the same class as Viagara Pimp), so why are yoiu commenting on him??
Viagra Pimp

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09-15-2005, 08:38 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez
He's certainly one of the best goal scorers ever, although you could make an argument for Gretz, Lemiuex, and a few others as well to be #1. Being top-5 in one specific part of the game does not necessarily make you a top-5 player ever.

No doubt he'd be on everyone's top-5 scorers list, but I doubt you'd find anyone putting him on their top-5 players list
While I wouldn't put him in the top 5, Bossy was anything but 1D. His assist totals were always very good and he was a very good defensive player. Plus he had his own brand of toughness taking hits, being pretty good along the boards and always going into traffic.

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09-15-2005, 09:14 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #66
While I wouldn't put him in the top 5, Bossy was anything but 1D. His assist totals were always very good and he was a very good defensive player. Plus he had his own brand of toughness taking hits, being pretty good along the boards and always going into traffic.
I never meant to come off sounding like Bossy was Pavel Bure, but as you alluded to, his total value as a player was probably not top-5

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09-16-2005, 03:02 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Bucky
Wow, a new record for You take the Russians adoration of Gainey far too seriously... You want to argue his place as a defensive forward, go ahead. But BEST OVERALL player number THREE??? That is number one on the list of ridiculous, assinine statements ever made on these boards. [FONT=Tahoma]:"So go sit on your mothers lap and have a drink of your own milk, kid"[/FONT]
Yeah I think he's the third best overall player you got a problem with that? Had you actually seen him play you would have a clue instead of checking stats every time.

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09-16-2005, 03:04 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Bucky
Right, I forgot.. you saw Lafleur play in his prime... But you never saw Dionne play (odd, since he's from the same class as Viagara Pimp), so why are yoiu commenting on him??
You really seem to be in love with Viagra these past few weeks... you should buy some for you and your little boy toy wayne

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09-16-2005, 07:02 AM
  #108
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Simple question, simple answer: NO!

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Old
09-16-2005, 08:28 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
You really seem to be in love with Viagra these past few weeks... you should buy some for you and your little boy toy wayne

No viagara required for Bucky and his fans... I do understand that balder men with drinking problems and low self esteem sometimes need that funky pill... Fo shizzle

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09-16-2005, 10:33 AM
  #110
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I'll accept the arguement that Messier was somewhere between 10-early 20's, based on his accomplishments. If I was drafting a team from scratch, I would select him higher than some guys that would rank above him, because he brought intangibles that every team needs. If I'm starting a team, I'll take what he brings to the table ahead of Lafleur,and believe me I'd struggle with that one. Sometimes, the overall game means more than pure offense. If my team already has Trottier or Beliveau or Teeder Kennedy, I take Lafleur. So, yeah,Messier may not be better than some of these guys, but he'd be more valuable.


Oh, and bigjags, if you haven't seen Harvey or Beliveau, ask someone, they'll explain.

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09-16-2005, 04:26 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Yeah I think he's the third best overall player you got a problem with that? Had you actually seen him play you would have a clue instead of checking stats every time.

When I was watching greats like Marcel Dionne, you were still on your mothers lap drinking milk and chewing childrens viagritamins, kid.

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09-16-2005, 04:48 PM
  #112
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I'm old enough to have seen Belliveau, Lafleur, even Richard and Harvey in their later years and I'd take Messier over them all. No, he wasn't the pure goal scorer that Lafleur was but he brought more things to the table IMO. Lafleur also always played poorly against the Soviets for some reason and that's a mark against him in my books.

Belliveau was very smooth, but Messier again did more things well and was much faster. Richard is the product of the Canadiens god-making machine. Everyone forgets that he scored his 50 goals in 50 games during the Second World War, when half the players in the league were fighting a war.

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Old
09-16-2005, 05:44 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macman
I'm old enough to have seen Belliveau, Lafleur, even Richard and Harvey in their later years and I'd take Messier over them all. No, he wasn't the pure goal scorer that Lafleur was but he brought more things to the table IMO. Lafleur also always played poorly against the Soviets for some reason and that's a mark against him in my books.

Belliveau was very smooth, but Messier again did more things well and was much faster. Richard is the product of the Canadiens god-making machine. Everyone forgets that he scored his 50 goals in 50 games during the Second World War, when half the players in the league were fighting a war.
You may be old enough to have seen Beliveau in his prime but you certainly didn't watch him.

Not only did you not see Beliveau, you cannot even spell Beliveau!

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09-16-2005, 07:01 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosbyfan
You may be old enough to have seen Beliveau in his prime but you certainly didn't watch him.

Not only did you not see Beliveau, you cannot even spell Beliveau!
So sue me for a typo. If you think Beliveau was anywhere near as fast as Messier, or as tough, then YOU clearly weren't watching.

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09-16-2005, 08:29 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macman
I'm old enough to have seen Belliveau, Lafleur, even Richard and Harvey in their later years and I'd take Messier over them all. No, he wasn't the pure goal scorer that Lafleur was but he brought more things to the table IMO. Lafleur also always played poorly against the Soviets for some reason and that's a mark against him in my books.

Belliveau was very smooth, but Messier again did more things well and was much faster. Richard is the product of the Canadiens god-making machine. Everyone forgets that he scored his 50 goals in 50 games during the Second World War, when half the players in the league were fighting a war.
You should watch Challenge Cup 79 Game 1; you might have a different take on things when both the NHL and Soviets were in top condition.

Messier and Lafleur arent in the same ballpark. Messier was a very determined hardnosed inspirational player but Lafleur was THE player on the best team ever. "A pure goal scorer" is the least of what Guy did. The timeliness and beauty of his goals and assists. The stickhandling. The checking ability (both forechecking and even bodychecks). Stamina. etc etc

They way you talk about Richard and Beliveau leads me to believe youre a closet Bruins fan.

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09-16-2005, 08:32 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Bucky
When I was watching greats like Marcel Dionne, you were still on your mothers lap drinking milk and chewing childrens viagritamins, kid.
You shouldnt be allowed by your guardian to inhabit these boards. You know nothing about hockey or anything else.

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09-17-2005, 08:16 AM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
You should watch Challenge Cup 79 Game 1; you might have a different take on things when both the NHL and Soviets were in top condition.
How well did Lafleur play in Game 3 of that series when everything was on the line? What about Canada Cup `76 when he wasn`t much of a factor? Or Canada Cup `81 where he was totally ineffective after Perreault was injured? Or the `81 World Championships ( 1 point in 7 games).

But I know how it works, with Lafleur we`re supposed to ignore his bad games and focus only on his good ones; while with Gretzky we should do the opposite, right?

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09-17-2005, 08:40 AM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
You shouldnt be allowed by your guardian to inhabit these boards. You know nothing about hockey or anything else.

Thanks for the input, cooch. Coming from you, that really and truly strikes a nerve and makes me feel bad.. Bad that you and your puppet keep posting nothing but the same ignorant grade school insults on this forum. I just keep a prayer candle lit that you'll grow tired of your own lack of originality and resume pulling the wings off flies, or torturing frogs with firecrackers or whatever else it was you did before finding your way here..

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09-17-2005, 08:44 AM
  #119
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[QUOTE=chooch]You should watch Challenge Cup 79 Game 1; you might have a different take on things when both the NHL and Soviets were in top condition.

Messier and Lafleur arent in the same ballpark. Messier was a very determined hardnosed inspirational player but Lafleur was THE player on the best team ever. "A pure goal scorer" is the least of what Guy did. The timeliness and beauty of his goals and assists. The stickhandling. The checking ability (both forechecking and even bodychecks). Stamina. etc etc

They way you talk about Richard and Beliveau leads me to believe youre a closet Bruins fan.[/QUOTE]


Spend a lot of time dreaming about who you might find in the closet??

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09-17-2005, 11:33 AM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macman
So sue me for a typo. If you think Beliveau was anywhere near as fast as Messier, or as tough, then YOU clearly weren't watching.
Sure Messier was faster and meaner, Beliveau was simply better. The player's more than the sum of the parts. The CH in me obviously influences me as the lack of same influences you. In a fair analysis, they had a lot in common in terms of their careers, though their styles were different.

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09-17-2005, 12:24 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macman
So sue me for a typo. If you think Beliveau was anywhere near as fast as Messier, or as tough, then YOU clearly weren't watching.
My lawyer will be in touch.

And you're right, I certainly wasn't watching when Messier had the speed of Beliveau in his prime. Certainly not top end speed when Beliveau was in full stride.

Messier was a cheapshot artist and Beliveau was not, if that is your definition of tough.

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09-17-2005, 12:33 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning
How well did Lafleur play in Game 3 of that series when everything was on the line? What about Canada Cup `76 when he wasn`t much of a factor? Or Canada Cup `81 where he was totally ineffective after Perreault was injured? Or the `81 World Championships ( 1 point in 7 games).

But I know how it works, with Lafleur we`re supposed to ignore his bad games and focus only on his good ones; while with Gretzky we should do the opposite, right?
Actually he was the only NHL player the Soviets couldnt handle. Dont believe me? - ask Herbert Warren Wind (oops he passed away recently) who wrote in a long Sports Illustrated article a couple of months later in 79 just that. That there was only player who stood out in that series and couldnt be stopped by the Russians.

The G3 defeat is largely Bowmans and Cheevers fault. Canada Cup 76 he wasnt played very much -look at the roster and he was still relatively young; I agree he wasnt that great. Its true.

81 Canada Cup was past his prime but he was still impressive I thought. 81 WC - he was concussed on his first shift and played the rest anyway to Cherry's admiration.

Others? How about midseason games - the New Years Eve Game or Super Series 78 - he was superb against the Soviets. He dominated.

I dont think you shoudl mention "when everything was on the line" as a critique of #10. I was watching G5 of the 79 semis tied 2-2 in games recently. His 2 goals in the same shift in P1 turned that game around. Always crucial stuff from him.

I think Sather summed up Gretzky very well recently when talking about Messier although he may be biased against him - after all he was ok with dumping 99 in his prime to the Kings for Jimmy Carson. Another Cup was the result.

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09-17-2005, 12:42 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosbyfan
My lawyer will be in touch.

And you're right, I certainly wasn't watching when Messier had the speed of Beliveau in his prime. Certainly not top end speed when Beliveau was in full stride.

Messier was a cheapshot artist and Beliveau was not, if that is your definition of tough.
I'm sorry Crosbyfan, but if you believe Beliveau was ever as fast as Messier, you never saw Beliveau play. Or are a Habs fan. Beliveau was a great player. He was silky smooth and very elegant, but Messier was much more complete and that's why I'd take him in a heartbeat.

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09-17-2005, 12:55 PM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmad
Team 1040 (local radio station) all morning, upon hearing of Messier's official retirement, continued to say he was a top 5 player of all time (the other four obviously Howe, Gretzky, Orr and Lemieux).

Any second opinions?
I've always maintained that it is silly for one to pass judgement on any player they never witnessed firsthand - and witnessed frequently - himself. As such, any opinion this poster would have about players prior to my time, e.g., Richard, Beliveau, etc., is pretty meaningless.

Among players I've seen, circa mid-70s to today, yes, #11 is a top five player, rounding out that list.

Of course, just my opinion.


Last edited by Trottier: 09-17-2005 at 03:19 PM.
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09-17-2005, 01:07 PM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
You should watch Challenge Cup 79 Game 1; you might have a different take on things when both the NHL and Soviets were in top condition.

Messier and Lafleur arent in the same ballpark. Messier was a very determined hardnosed inspirational player but Lafleur was THE player on the best team ever. "A pure goal scorer" is the least of what Guy did. The timeliness and beauty of his goals and assists. The stickhandling. The checking ability (both forechecking and even bodychecks). Stamina. etc etc
Sorry, but one game doesn't erase the fact Lafleur didn't live up to his billing internationally. In 24 Canada Cup and world championship games, The Flower scored exactly four times. That's not great no matter how you slice it, especially for a pure goal scorer.

Stamina? Lafleur didn't have anywhere near the longevity of Messier and that's a measure of stamina. There's no question he was more dazzling than Messier at their peaks, but he only burned brightly for about six years and then faded quickly. It's no secret he was a heavy smoker and maybe that had something to do with it. Messier played at a higher level for longer and that's a factor in measuring greatness IMO. He scored 47 goals in his 17th season in the league at a time when goals were at a premium. Lafleur's goal total his 17th year? Twelve.

I don't know how anyone can believe a guy who is second in all-time points isn't in the same ballpark as Lafleur. Unless, of course, you're a Habs fan.

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