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Sakic/Forsberg vs Crosby/Malkin

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Old
07-29-2014, 12:51 PM
  #51
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That's a good point. If you combined Yzerman's 155 year and Fedorov's Hart/Selke/Pearson year you'd be getting the best offensive output combined with the best all-around play. One thing that hurts this pair though, for me, is that their peaks/primes did not seem to align. I just always felt that the better leader/more defensively responsible Yzerman from the later years had lost something on the offensive dynamo earlier Yzerman, of which Fedorov was not a part of.

With Crosby/Malkin and Sakic/Forsberg you're getting them at their best years together in sync. Just like the vaunted Oiler boys from the 80's.

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07-29-2014, 01:48 PM
  #52
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Let's rephrase. Since we are only talking prime: which duo is most likely to give you the Cup, come playoffs? To me, Crosby and Malkin ain't got a prayer on the both Wings and both Avs.

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07-29-2014, 02:04 PM
  #53
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Sakic/Forsberg. I'd go to war with these guys 100x out of 100 over the likes of Crosby/Malkin.

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07-29-2014, 02:11 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Let's rephrase. Since we are only talking prime: which duo is most likely to give you the Cup, come playoffs? To me, Crosby and Malkin ain't got a prayer on the both Wings and both Avs.
If we are looking at how they both played at once here are their best combined best post-seasons statistically (in the same year) where their team made the finals:

Crosby:
24GP, 15 goals, 16 assists, 31 points, +9
Malkin:
24GP 14 goals, 22 assists, 36 points, +3
Combined (2008-2009):
48GP, 29 goals, 38 assists, 67 points, 1.39ppg + 12

Crosby:
20GP, 6 goals, 21 assists, 27 points, +7
Malkin:
20GP 10 goals, 12 assists, 22 points, +3
Combined (2007-2008):
40GP, 16 goals, 33 assists, 49 points, 1.23ppg + 10

Forsberg:
20GP, 9 goals, 18 assists, 27 points, +8
Sakic:
21GP, 13 goals, 13 assists, 26 points, +6
Combined (2001-2002):
41GP, 22 goals, 31 assists, 53 points, 1.29ppg, + 14

Forsberg:
22GP, 10 goals, 11 assists, 21 points, +10
Sakic:
22GP, 18 goals, 16 assists, 34 points, +10
Combined (1995-1996):
44GP, 28 goals, 27 assists, 55 points, 1.25ppg, + 20

Fedorov:
22GP, 10 goals, 10 assists, 20 points, +8
Yzerman:
22GP, 6 goals, 18 assists, 24 points, +8
Combined (1997-1998):
44GP, 16 goals, 28 assists, 44 points, 1.00ppg, +16

Fedorov:
23GP, 5 goals, 14 assists, 19 points, +4
Yzerman:
23GP, 6 goals, 17 assists, 23 points, +8
Combined (2001-2002):
46GP, 11 goals, 31 assists, 42 points, 0.91ppg, +12

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07-29-2014, 02:35 PM
  #55
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Sakic > Crosby IMO. Forsberg and Malkin are fairly similar levels to me, so I'd give it to the Avs duo

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07-29-2014, 02:55 PM
  #56
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Since you also have to make the playoffs, and hopefully earn a high seed to improve your chances here are their regular seasons combined with their post-season in the years I listed above. I'm not advocating for this type of comparison between the groups, as their are a number of ways to compare them. But if anyone is interested here are the seasons sorted by total ppg:

Forsberg + Sakic (1995-1996):
208GP, 109 goals, 182 assists, 291 points, 1.40ppg, +60
NHL league average 3.14gpg.

Crosby + Malkin (2008-2009):
207GP, 97 goals, 186 assists, 283 points, 1.36ppg +47
NHL league average 2.91gpg.

Crosby + Malkin (2007-2008):
175GP, 87 goals, 140 assists, 227 points, 1.29ppg +44
NHL league average 2.78gpg.

Forsberg + Sakic (2001-2002):
123GP, 48 goals, 84 assists, 132 points, 1.07ppg, + 26
NHL league average 2.62gpg.

Fedorov + Yzerman (1997-1998):
140GP, 16 goals, 46 assists, 130 points, 0.92ppg, +29
NHL league average 2.64gpg.

Fedorov + Yzerman (2001-2002):
179GP, 11 goals, 31 assists, 155 points, 0.86ppg, +43
NHL league average 2.62gpg.

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07-29-2014, 03:17 PM
  #57
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Another way you could look at it is is taking each players peak regular season points totals and combining it with their peak playoff point totals (can be different years).

Crosby:
120 points in 79 GP
+
31 points in 24 GP

Malkin:
113 points in 82 GP
+
36 points in 24 GP

Regular season total: 223 points in 161 GP = 1.39ppg
Playoff total: 67 points in 48 GP = 1.4ppg
Total: 290 points in 209 GP = 1.39

Sakic:
120 points in 82 GP
+
34 points in 22 GP

Forsberg:
116 points in 82 GP
+
27 points in 20 GP

Regular season total: 236 points in 164 GP = 1.43ppg
Playoff total: 61 points in 42 GP = 1.5ppg
Total: 297 points in 206 GP = 1.44

Statistically Forsberg and Sakic come out slightly ahead. The numbers are not adjusted for area however and aren't necessarily the players best seasons.

Best adjusted seasons are:
Forsberg: 118 points
Sakic: 128 points

Crosby: 122 points
Malkin: 122 points

So they are all extremely close when you take their best seasons statistically.

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07-29-2014, 03:19 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Gobo View Post
Sakic > Crosby IMO. Forsberg and Malkin are fairly similar levels to me, so I'd give it to the Avs duo
At their absolute best (not just points, but total package), I'd actually go:

Forsberg
Malkin/Sakic
Crosby

... with not much separation between each level.

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07-29-2014, 07:27 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Boxscore View Post
At their absolute best (not just points, but total package), I'd actually go:

Forsberg
Malkin/Sakic
Crosby

... with not much separation between each level.
I see it that way although I think I'd replace Sakic with Forsberg. Sakic is a lot better than some are making him out to be. In a different thread about Forsberg, I provided stats showing that Sakic always killed more penalties than Forsberg did circa 1997 and beyond. This goes against the notion that Forsberg was the better defensive player. Also for all of Forsberg's "playoff warrior" reputation, Sakic has a Conn Smythe and a second Smythe caliber playoff run. Forsberg wasn't even PPG in 1996 when the Avs won their first Cup and didn't even play in the Finals in the second Cup win. Sakic was the better clutch player and had the better season between all of them (2000-01).

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07-29-2014, 07:33 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
I see it that way although I think I'd replace Sakic with Forsberg. Sakic is a lot better than some are making him out to be. In a different thread about Forsberg, I provided stats showing that Sakic always killed more penalties than Forsberg did circa 1997 and beyond. This goes against the notion that Forsberg was the better defensive player. Also for all of Forsberg's "playoff warrior" reputation, Sakic has a Conn Smythe and a second Smythe caliber playoff run. Forsberg wasn't even PPG in 1996 when the Avs won their first Cup and didn't even play in the Finals in the second Cup win. Sakic was the better clutch player and had the better season between all of them (2000-01).
There is definitely a case to be made for Sakic here. I just prefer Forsberg's total package game and physical style. The way Forsberg crushed opponents physically while carrying the puck was amazing. He could beat you anyway you wanted to play the game. I also agree with you that the Sakic/Forsberg duo is superior to the young Pens duo but a decent amount.

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07-29-2014, 07:35 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
I see it that way although I think I'd replace Sakic with Forsberg. Sakic is a lot better than some are making him out to be. In a different thread about Forsberg, I provided stats showing that Sakic always killed more penalties than Forsberg did circa 1997 and beyond. This goes against the notion that Forsberg was the better defensive player. Also for all of Forsberg's "playoff warrior" reputation, Sakic has a Conn Smythe and a second Smythe caliber playoff run. Forsberg wasn't even PPG in 1996 when the Avs won their first Cup and didn't even play in the Finals in the second Cup win. Sakic was the better clutch player and had the better season between all of them (2000-01).
Then why was Forsberg 2nd in Selke voting in 97-98? Though I don't quite remember where Sakic placed that year, but I don't think it was in the top 10. There must be a reason for this and you can't just chalk it all up to physical play. Also, just because someone kills more penalties, does not necessarily mean they are a better defensive player at even strength.

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07-29-2014, 07:40 PM
  #62
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Crosby is the clear number 1. Better prime than all of them. Malkin also has a better peak than forsberg and Sakic.

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07-29-2014, 07:43 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Fred Taylor View Post
Then why was Forsberg 2nd in Selke voting in 97-98? Though I don't quite remember where Sakic placed that year, but I don't think it was in the top 10. There must be a reason for this and you can't just chalk it all up to physical play. Also, just because someone kills more penalties, does not necessarily mean they are a better defensive player at even strength.
Not that I'm blaming it entirely on this; but Forsberg joined the NHL in 1994-95 with the reputation of being the best two-way, defensively gifted forward from Scandinavia since Kurri. I'm of the opinion that Forsberg was much better defensively in 1994-95 and 1995-96 than he was in 1997-98.

No I wouldn't attribute it to physicality uniquely, although it does play a big role with it being DPE and all, but his point totals played a huge role too.

I'm not trying to underrate Forsberg's defensive ability but he wasn't even among the top 5 best defensive forwards of the DPE; Lehtinen, Peca, Federov, Madden and Sakic were all better.

As for Sakic not getting many Selke votes in 1997-98 if any at all, well we go back to point totals.

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07-29-2014, 07:45 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Ageless View Post
Crosby is the clear number 1. Better prime than all of them. Malkin also has a better peak than forsberg and Sakic.
Aside from trophy counting (which is unfair to Forsberg and Sakic since they played during Jagr, Hasek and Lemieux' primes), Sakic and Forsberg were both better all-around players than Crosby is and offensively they were very close with Sakic being a superior goal scorer and playoff player.

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07-29-2014, 08:37 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Ageless View Post
Crosby is the clear number 1. Better prime than all of them. Malkin also has a better peak than forsberg and Sakic.
Lol. Yeah, ok.

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07-29-2014, 08:39 PM
  #66
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Lol. Yeah, ok.
8 straight seasons in top 3 in ppg? Yeah nvm

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07-29-2014, 09:17 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Aside from trophy counting (which is unfair to Forsberg and Sakic since they played during Jagr, Hasek and Lemieux' primes), Sakic and Forsberg were both better all-around players than Crosby is and offensively they were very close with Sakic being a superior goal scorer and playoff player.
Here is what happens when you remove Jagr, Lemieux and Hasek from the Hart voting and Jagr, Lemieux and early 90's Gretzky from the Art Ross:

Hart finishes :
Crosby - 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 6th
Sakic - 1st, 4th, 7th, 7th, 8th
Forsberg - 1st, 5th, 6th, 9th

Crosby wins that one.

Art Ross:
Crosby - 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 6th
Sakic - 1st, 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th
Forsberg - 1st, 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 8th

-Crosby has the most combined top 3 appearances (9 to Foppas 5). Sakic has the most top 10s (14 to Sids 11).

Crosby won 3 Lindsay awards, Sakic 1 and Forsberg none. Sadly there is no data on Lindsay finalists for seasons before 1998-1999. The only 2 times either lost a Lindsay award and were a finalist after 1998 were when Forsberg was a finalist in 2003 but lost to Naslund. And when Sakic was a finalist in 2004 but lost to St. Louis. Removing Lemieux, Jagr and Hasek wouldn't give them the trophy in any of those seasons.

So Forsberg would need to win 3 Lindsay awards before 1998 to equal Crosby's total. Seems unlikely given that he was only healthy in 3 of those seasons and in only 2 of those did he finish in the top 10 in scoring. Let's look at his seasons where he finished top 10 in scoring.
1997-1998: Would have led the league in points by 1 over Bure without Jagr, although he finishes with 26 fewer goals. Let's give Forsberg this one anyways.
1995-1996: I gave this award to Sakic below.

Sakic meanwhile would need to win 2 Lindsay awards before 1998 to match Crosby's total. Possible but here's who beat him when he placed in the top 10 in scoring in that time:
1995-1996: He probably wins this one without Lemieux or Jagr. Lemieux won the award. He would have led the league in scoring, trailing only them in that season.
1994-1995: Loses the award to Lindros.
1990-1991: Loses the award to Hull.
1989-1990: Loses the award to Yzerman. Finishes 10th in scoring.

Here are the new adjusted trophy cases:

Crosby:
2 Harts
2 Art Ross trophies
3 Lindsays

Sakic:
1 Hart
2 Art Ross trophies
2 Lindsays

Forsberg:
1 Hart
2 Art Ross trophies
1 Lindsay

Keep in mind that Crosby is 27 years old and should be able to add to these totals.


Last edited by Beau Knows: 07-29-2014 at 10:54 PM.
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07-29-2014, 10:39 PM
  #68
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Crosby is the clear number 1. Better prime than all of them. Malkin also has a better peak than forsberg and Sakic.
His peak is below Sakic, IMO.

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07-29-2014, 10:55 PM
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this to me is what pushes it decisively in sakic/forsberg's favour. won more against better teams with a pretty comparable supporting cast. look at the period from 96-02: they made the conference finals every year but 1. now look at the penguins 08-14: some pretty embarrassing losses in there, only one conference finals appearance after the back-to-back SC finals. for two players who are head and shoulders over the competition to fail in such abject fashion time and again is a serious blemish on their legacy as far as i'm concerned, compared with guys in sakic and forsberg that pretty well always performed brilliantly, even in defeat - forsberg leading playoff scoring without making the finals in 99 and 02, sakic leading in assists in 97 - haven't seen anything like that from C and M except maybe crosby 2010.

well, there's time for them to bounce back, but i take sakic and forsberg.
True enough. Even when they lost to Dallas in 2000 Game 7 culminated with Ray Bourque hitting the post which would have been the tying goal. They never lost in embarrassing fashion the way the Penguins have. 2002 the Avs still lost to the eventual champion Red Wings. I mean, sure you had the series in your favour and Game 7 was a blowout, but this wasn't the 2010 Canadiens they lost to either. This is a team that has about 10 or 11 HHOFers.

Let's look at just what might have happened had the Avs gotten out of those other 4 conference finals. You could argue they have 4 more Cups:

1997 - Maybe Lindros was playing out of his mind, but the defending champs going against an always shaky Snow and Hextall in net? No chance. If the Avs get past Detroit I think they beat Philly.

1999 - Beat Dallas and you win the Cup. Buffalo had Hasek, but little else. The Avs win.

2000 - This is probably the toughest test in the final. Jersey is playing hot and riding a lot of emotion. Stevens was a man possessed that spring. However, the Devils played the Stars in the final, the team closest to them in style. If the Avs play a wide open game could the Devils stop them, or even keep up? In 2001 these pretty much same teams met but with Blake in Colorado and the Avs won.

2002 - They beat Carolina easily.

Alright, at least two Cups easily. 1997 and 2000 would be harder, but the only one I have any doubt about is 2000.

But how often can you say that about Pittsburgh? They lose terribly to Boston in 2013 and the Bruins lose to the Hawks. It would have been a big hill to climb for them to beat Chicago had they made it that far.

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07-29-2014, 11:48 PM
  #70
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True enough. Even when they lost to Dallas in 2000 Game 7 culminated with Ray Bourque hitting the post which would have been the tying goal. They never lost in embarrassing fashion the way the Penguins have. 2002 the Avs still lost to the eventual champion Red Wings. I mean, sure you had the series in your favour and Game 7 was a blowout, but this wasn't the 2010 Canadiens they lost to either. This is a team that has about 10 or 11 HHOFers.

Let's look at just what might have happened had the Avs gotten out of those other 4 conference finals. You could argue they have 4 more Cups:

1997 - Maybe Lindros was playing out of his mind, but the defending champs going against an always shaky Snow and Hextall in net? No chance. If the Avs get past Detroit I think they beat Philly.

1999 - Beat Dallas and you win the Cup. Buffalo had Hasek, but little else. The Avs win.

2000 - This is probably the toughest test in the final. Jersey is playing hot and riding a lot of emotion. Stevens was a man possessed that spring. However, the Devils played the Stars in the final, the team closest to them in style. If the Avs play a wide open game could the Devils stop them, or even keep up? In 2001 these pretty much same teams met but with Blake in Colorado and the Avs won.

2002 - They beat Carolina easily.

Alright, at least two Cups easily. 1997 and 2000 would be harder, but the only one I have any doubt about is 2000.

But how often can you say that about Pittsburgh? They lose terribly to Boston in 2013 and the Bruins lose to the Hawks. It would have been a big hill to climb for them to beat Chicago had they made it that far.
Good post, Phil.

At lot of attention has been brought to how tough the West was during that time.

You have done a good job recapping how the Pens have continued to lose to inferior teams in embarrassing fashion the past few years.

Sure, the Pens won a Cup, but let's remember that the league moved up the SCF a week (while Detroit's stars were nursing injuries... wasn't it Datsyuk and Lidstrom, among others?), which AFAIK was unprecedented, and that the refs told the Pens they had too many men on the ice during a PP in game 3, rather than call the penalty as the rules require (at that point Detroit was up 2-0 in games, 2-1 in game 3... Pens scored on that PP).

What I don't think has really been touched on is just how weak the East has generally been post-CBA.

What was the Pens' signature series win in the East during these 9 seasons (8 playoffs for them) since the lockout? What, a 7 game series win over the Caps, who are going on two decades without making it past the second round?

I think the Pens were fortunate that the East was week and they mostly avoided the very best teams. Ottawa was a powerhouse the first couple seasons after the lockout, but the Pens didn't face them until they were a shell of their former selves. Buffalo was tough those first couple years as well, but then fell apart. The Pens have been a good team for a few years now, and deserve some credit for frequently winning their division and garnering high seeds, but still they seem unusually lucky in not having to face strong teams. When they faced the other post-CBA Eastern powerhouse, Boston, we all know how that ended... not well at all for the Pens. Again, I can't exactly say the Caps were really a contender, given their weak division and their continued failures in the playoffs.

So we're really looking at two memorable series wins for the Pens since the lockout: The '09 SCF, with what I contend was unusual assistance from the league, and a 7 game series against the perpetually underachieving Caps.

When balanced against their numerous embarrassing losses, I just don't find that track record all that compelling.

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07-30-2014, 12:01 AM
  #71
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Sure, the Pens won a Cup, but let's remember that the league moved up the SCF a week (while Detroit's stars were nursing injuries... wasn't it Datsyuk and Lidstrom, among others?), which AFAIK was unprecedented, and that the refs told the Pens they had too many men on the ice during a PP in game 3, rather than call the penalty as the rules require (at that point Detroit was up 2-0 in games, 2-1 in game 3... Pens scored on that PP).
Pretty silly "what if" scenarios. Just like if Malkin didn't have the flu in the 2008 finals Pittsburgh might have won back-to-back Cups. Neither happened.

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07-30-2014, 12:19 AM
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Pretty silly "what if" scenarios. Just like if Malkin didn't have the flu in the 2008 finals Pittsburgh might have won back-to-back Cups. Neither happened.
The event Czech mentioned did happen though.

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07-30-2014, 12:27 AM
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The event Czech mentioned did happen though.
The penalty wasn't called, just like many other times in history where a call was blown and Lidstrom and Datsyuk weren't completely healthy. If you want to go back in time and change who wins the Cup every year because some break went their way go ahead.


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07-30-2014, 12:32 AM
  #74
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The penalty wasn't called, just like many other times in history where a call was blown and Lindros and Datsyuk weren't completely healthy. If you want to go back in time and change who wins the Cup every year because some break went their way go ahead.
While we're at it, the Penguins were getting a lot of favoritism leading up to their back-to-back Cup Finals appearances.

In 2008 when the Penguins were playing the Rangers in game 5 with the game tied late, Hal Gill got away with hugging Jagr to the boards and not letting him move 2 minutes before the end of regulation and just a minute later ( I forget which player did it) but the refs didn't call the blatant high stick on Drury where blood was drawn around his nose area only to give the Penguins a powerplay in overtime after Crosby's embellishment just a few minutes in.

I just hope the NHL never goes back to that kind of officiating.

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07-30-2014, 12:36 AM
  #75
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While we're at it, the Penguins were getting a lot of favoritism leading up to their back-to-back Cup Finals appearances.
Weird, since Detroit had more PP opportunities than Pittsburgh did in the 2009 finals. Seems like the refs weren't doing a very good job fixing the series. I wonder why they didn't call the obvious play where Zetterberg covered the puck with his glove in the crease on a Crosby attempt. You would think in a fixed series the refs would catch that one, but somehow they didn't. But please whine more.

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