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Joseph vs Luongo

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Old
07-26-2014, 03:10 PM
  #1
Ziostilon
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Joseph vs Luongo

Here is the poll from over four years ago

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blades of Glory View Post
... didn't win a Vezina thanks to playing his prime against the prime of the best goaltending crop in NHL history. From Patrick Roy's first Vezina victory in 1989 to Dominik Hasek's final Vezina victory in 2001, a goalie not named Roy, Hasek, or Belfour only won the Vezina twice. One was a complete fluke and the other simply had a career year.

Right now, Joseph is way, way ahead of Luongo. Joseph's performances in the playoffs with Edmonton, facing far superior teams, were among the best of all-time. He led two decent teams to the Conference Finals. The two goalies actually have a similar legacy; Nothing in terms of major hardware and checkered playoff resumes.

If Luongo wins a Vezina and/or Stanley Cup, I will rank him higher than Joseph. But if he doesn't win either, he will join Joseph as the two best goaltenders not to make the HHOF. In the age of the modern Vezina, goalies have no shot at the Hall without at least one Vezina AND one Cup. Unless you win a **** load of Vezinas, which can make up for no Cup. All history cares about when it comes to goalies is how much hardware they have and what they won in the playoffs.
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Originally Posted by Blades of Glory View Post
... Joseph led the league in save percentage one time, and was second one other time. So top two, twice. Not quite as impressive, but while Luongo has been more consistently in the top ten in that category, he hasn't reached that save percentage peak Joseph did during that stretch in St. Louis. Luongo has been top ten 7 times, but his highest mark was third, while in Florida, which over-counts shots to a far greater extent than any other team in the league. In a typical season, Luongo will hover between the .917-.923 range, which is an elite area. But his .931 save percentage in 2004 was due to Florida over-counting shots by a rather huge number of 4.1. No surprise that he is back to his normal numbers now that he's in Vancouver, who under-counts shots.

Luongo definitely has the best season of the two, though. He, IMO, should have won the Vezina in 2007, and I pretty much attribute that to East Coast bias, unintentional or not. If Luongo continues on his career pace, he will definitely pass Joseph on the all-time list. But he needs that Vezina or Stanley Cup to be mentioned as one of the elite goaltenders of his time.
I would say the high point of Luongo's career is over. He did get to game 7 of the finals, but he'll be remembered as one and maybe the main guy that lost the series.
Two Olympic goal medals.

Who will be the better player of all-time?
Curtis Shayne Joseph or Roberto Luongo




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07-26-2014, 03:37 PM
  #2
Hobnobs
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Curtis Joseph for me but tbh it will probably be a wash history-wize...

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07-26-2014, 05:32 PM
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I Hate Chris Butler
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Luongo at his best definitely looked better than Joseph to me.

2004 and 2007 were better seasons than anything Joseph ever did. The best I ever saw Joseph play was probably the 2002 playoffs and Luongo still played better in 2007 IMO. Luongo was also better earlier. As soon as he left Long Island, he showed why he was drafted where he was.

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07-26-2014, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I Hate Chris Butler View Post
Luongo at his best definitely looked better than Joseph to me.

2004 and 2007 were better seasons than anything Joseph ever did. The best I ever saw Joseph play was probably the 2002 playoffs and Luongo still played better in 2007 IMO. Luongo was also better earlier. As soon as he left Long Island, he showed why he was drafted where he was.
Joseph at his best was probably with the Oilers

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07-26-2014, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
Joseph at his best was probably with the Oilers
I would say St. Louis. Joseph on St. Louis was, in my opinion, pretty close in value to the high-ends of some of the best goalies to ever play. His GAR in 1992-93 was 92.6. I didn't even know that was possible. And if you subscribe to the mentalities of The Hockey Compendium, that 1993 playoff was the unicorn of goalie playoffs.

But Joseph in Edmonton had some really special Game 7s against Dallas and Colorado. I painted my goalie helmet with dog teeth on it after that stick save in 1998.




Luongo might be better, but I really like what Joseph brought to the table.

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07-26-2014, 09:32 PM
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Honestly, someone could say either name, and I wouldn't argue it. For me, I take Joseph, but I'd be fine with either.

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07-26-2014, 09:52 PM
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Art of Sedinery
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Originally Posted by Ziostilon View Post
I would say the high point of Luongo's career is over. He did get to game 7 of the finals, but he'll be remembered as one and maybe the main guy that lost the series.
Which is complete and utter bull crap.

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07-26-2014, 10:13 PM
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BraveCanadian
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Somehow Joseph is remembered around here more for what he (supposedly) didn't do near the end of his career than what he did do most of it:

Play out of his mind hockey on underdog/relatively poor defensive teams.

Joseph for me.

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07-26-2014, 10:22 PM
  #9
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Luongo has physical advantages since he's the larger of the two...


Having said that, Joseph always seemed to be the best player of the 1st round of the playoffs when his 7th or 8th seeded Oilers had to battle Dallas or Colorado

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07-26-2014, 10:43 PM
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Iain Fyffe
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Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
Which is complete and utter bull crap.
True, but that is how he's been remembered so far.

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07-26-2014, 11:24 PM
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Art of Sedinery
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Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
True, but that is how he's been remembered so far.
That shouldn't make it OK to hold that against him, because people have an incorrect negative view of a major part of his resume.

There was literally 0 games he could have played lights out in that would have changed the outcome of the series. The Canucks scored 3 goals in their 4 losses, and even only 5 goals in their 3 wins.

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07-26-2014, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
That shouldn't make it OK to hold that against him, because people have an incorrect negative view of a major part of his resume.

There was literally 0 games he could have played lights out in that would have changed the outcome of the series. The Canucks scored 3 goals in their 4 losses, and even only 5 goals in their 3 wins.
Absolutely, as I recall in elimination games before the last one he actually played lights-out.

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07-26-2014, 11:35 PM
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Art of Sedinery
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
Absolutely, as I recall in elimination games before the last one he actually played lights-out.
They only had 1 other elimination game in that playoffs, against Chicago game 7. He indeed played very well in that game, making a huge blocker save in OT moments before Burrows slayed the dragon.

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07-27-2014, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
They only had 1 other elimination game in that playoffs, against Chicago game 7. He indeed played very well in that game, making a huge blocker save in OT moments before Burrows slayed the dragon.
though if i had a choice, i could have done without that SH goal at the end of regulation, which gave me a heart attack. not to say that goal was his fault, but him not controlling that rebound took years off all of our lives.

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07-27-2014, 02:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
though if i had a choice, i could have done without that SH goal at the end of regulation, which gave me a heart attack. not to say that goal was his fault, but him not controlling that rebound took years off all of our lives.
That last minute-goal in the Gold Medal game at the 2010 Olympics also gave us a mighty scare.


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07-27-2014, 03:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
That shouldn't make it OK to hold that against him, because people have an incorrect negative view of a major part of his resume.

There was literally 0 games he could have played lights out in that would have changed the outcome of the series. The Canucks scored 3 goals in their 4 losses, and even only 5 goals in their 3 wins.
I'll argue he lost Game Six for the team.

The Canucks scored twice that game, but any chance of them winning was gone after the first 8 minutes, 35 seconds of the match. The score was 3-0 less than ten minutes in. I'm sure the team was deflated. They had a chance to win the Stanley Cup that night until halfway through the first period.



Final score: 5-2.

At the other end, Tim Thomas played incredibly throughout the entire series.




Last edited by JetsAlternate: 07-27-2014 at 03:20 AM.
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07-27-2014, 03:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
That shouldn't make it OK to hold that against him, because people have an incorrect negative view of a major part of his resume.

There was literally 0 games he could have played lights out in that would have changed the outcome of the series. The Canucks scored 3 goals in their 4 losses, and even only 5 goals in their 3 wins.
Teams play differently to score effects, so just pointing out the goals the Canucks scored is misleading. When the score was tied the games tended to be pretty even, with the Canucks generating an acceptable number of scoring chances, but as soon as Boston had a lead they absolutely smothered anything around the net. Backbreaking goals can also really deflate a team, and as was pointed out, Luongo basically gave the team no chance to win in game 6 (the one game he should really be held accountable for). He wasn't the reason they lost the series, and some of the scores look worse than they should be because the team left him out to dry once the game was out of reach, but he deserves as much blame as the other stars who couldn't get it done.

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07-27-2014, 05:13 AM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Somehow Joseph is remembered around here more for what he (supposedly) didn't do near the end of his career than what he did do most of it:

Play out of his mind hockey on underdog/relatively poor defensive teams.
Joseph for me.
I don't see how this is supposed to differ him from Luongo. You could swap the names and the post would make just as much sense.

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07-27-2014, 07:36 AM
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tony d
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Give me Curtis Joseph here.

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07-27-2014, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
But Joseph in Edmonton had some really special Game 7s against Dallas and Colorado. I painted my goalie helmet with dog teeth on it after that stick save in 1998.... Luongo might be better, but I really like what Joseph brought to the table.
Ya, and while I really hate this, having to sort of dump on Rodney Dangerfield Luongo like everyone else Id go with Joseph here as well. He just had more "compete" in him I believe. Mentally tougher and as Goaltending is 95% mental, well.... A lot more aggressive though granted his style & the era in which he played requiring exactly that. Much more so than whats followed. Technically a Hybrid, just a fabulous Goaltender. Excellent glove hand, quick feet, positioning & playing the angles always beyond solid and ya, terrific with his stick... and you say you painted some fangs on your mask as a kid inspired by Cujo's play? Thats fun. Never had a custom paint job on any of my masks, not even a logo. Bondo Grey. Straight from the shop. Yep. Had the Redneck Badass look all dialed in Baby. Duct tape holding my Cooper GM12 Waffle Board Blocker together having ripped it across one too many mouths.

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07-27-2014, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by JetsAlternate View Post
That last minute-goal in the Gold Medal game at the 2010 Olympics also gave us a mighty scare.

It's funny that the 2 of the biggest goals that Luongo gets criticized for, are both in games he won, and played very well in other wise. Not to mention both goals were either with the defence scrambling around (Chicago) or simply forgetting to cover not one but TWO guys in front of the net (USA). Both games went to OT, and both games Luongo made saves to allow his team to win.

It's not like he let in soft floater from the blueline in either of these situations.

And it's not like I'm saying Luongo's resume is perfect. But surely Joseph had a moment where he allowed a goal in a crucial game to go to OT despite winning the game that we can be ultra-critical about.


Last edited by Art of Sedinery: 07-27-2014 at 03:36 PM.
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07-27-2014, 03:34 PM
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I'll argue he lost Game Six for the team.

The Canucks scored twice that game, but any chance of them winning was gone after the first 8 minutes, 35 seconds of the match. The score was 3-0 less than ten minutes in. I'm sure the team was deflated. They had a chance to win the Stanley Cup that night until halfway through the first period.



Final score: 5-2.

At the other end, Tim Thomas played incredibly throughout the entire series.


Yup that was definitely his worst moments in the finals. But it's not fair to compare him to Thomas in that game or series, I've never in my time of watching hockey seen a goalie play that dominant in a Stanley Cup finals.

But it's not like the Canucks played like they had a chance to clinch their first Cup win in that period. They took 4 penalties and allowed 19 shots. It was an all round team bed-s****ing.

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07-27-2014, 05:25 PM
  #23
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Ya, and while I really hate this, having to sort of dump on Rodney Dangerfield Luongo like everyone else Id go with Joseph here as well. He just had more "compete" in him I believe. Mentally tougher and as Goaltending is 95% mental, well....
I'm not an expert on Joseph by any means but I definitely agree with the mental side being an issue for Luongo. Too easily rattled and bothered by bad goals, and he always seemed like someone who needed to be coddled.

There's a thread on the Canucks board about whether we felt betrayed by certain trade requests, and one issue with Luongo I brought up was that, as much as people like to bring up how he was "jerked around by the team", he first asked to be traded after the loss to the LA Kings, when he was still the starter all year except for a brief six game stint in November when he got hurt and Schneider played well enough to keep getting a couple games even after Luongo came back, and in the final three games against the Kings after Luongo played well but not great the first two games and the listless team in front of him needed a shakeup. Now, perhaps he saw the writing on the wall, but this was a guy with a huge contract who'd been considered one of the best in the league for some time, and he seemingly couldn't handle a little competition from his backup? It made me think of how true greats would have handled it, and while a guy like Roy had his own trade request that was related to his ego, I can't ever envision him not still believing he was the best, and if a backup ever came to close to taking his crease, reel off a string of amazing games to shut everyone up about who was really the number one. Or a guy like Michael Jordan, who would probably go at the guy in practice so hard he would demoralize him into being a shell of himself. Luongo seemed to want everyone else to think he was the best, without necessarily believing it himself.

Now, that's a lot to live up to obviously, and he was still a great goaltender, but before his groin injury, I think he had the ability to be one of he best of all time if he had the mental game in check. I don't think he really had any weaknesses in his physical game at his best, and his '06-07 season was simply amazing.

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07-27-2014, 07:10 PM
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...I don't think he really had any weaknesses in his physical game at his best, and his '06-07 season was simply amazing.
Ya, good points. He's just a rather enigmatic individual. Was said Team Canada won Gold not because of him per se' but more despite the fact he was in the net. Yet statistically, ranks way up there, and eyeball test as you say, some excellent performances & seasons.

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07-27-2014, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I would say St. Louis. Joseph on St. Louis was, in my opinion, pretty close in value to the high-ends of some of the best goalies to ever play. His GAR in 1992-93 was 92.6. I didn't even know that was possible. And if you subscribe to the mentalities of The Hockey Compendium, that 1993 playoff was the unicorn of goalie playoffs.
I'd agree with Joseph's peak in St. Louis being one of the best regular-season peaks of all time - bracketing that 92.6 GAR season were seasons of 74.4 and 74.0 GAR, meaning that over the three seasons, Joseph prevented 241 goals beyond what a replacement-level goaltender would have done.

And, as said above, the 1993 playoffs was phenomenal. In 11 games, Joseph prevented nearly 27 goals beyond replacement - that's more than 2.5 goals per game (and that includes the Game Seven loss to Toronto, where Joseph - and the entire team - laid an egg). It's amazing that they even got that far - the team in front of him scored 1.96 goals/60 minutes (this was prior to the "dead puck" era).

(EDIT - it wasn't 1.96 goals/60 minutes, it was about 2.04 - I just found a typo in Belfour's game logs on my page. But still.)

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