HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Joseph vs Luongo

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-28-2014, 09:54 AM
  #26
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,390
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
I'd agree with Joseph's peak in St. Louis being one of the best regular-season peaks of all time - bracketing that 92.6 GAR season were seasons of 74.4 and 74.0 GAR, meaning that over the three seasons, Joseph prevented 241 goals beyond what a replacement-level goaltender would have done.

And, as said above, the 1993 playoffs was phenomenal. In 11 games, Joseph prevented nearly 27 goals beyond replacement - that's more than 2.5 goals per game (and that includes the Game Seven loss to Toronto, where Joseph - and the entire team - laid an egg). It's amazing that they even got that far - the team in front of him scored 1.96 goals/60 minutes (this was prior to the "dead puck" era).

(EDIT - it wasn't 1.96 goals/60 minutes, it was about 2.04 - I just found a typo in Belfour's game logs on my page. But still.)
That is just ridiculous.

Although, having seen it happen at the time, it doesn't surprise me in the least. Cujo took the Blues on his shoulders for as far as they went.

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-28-2014, 11:21 PM
  #27
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,469
vCash: 500
If I am picking, I would say Luongo gets in the HHOF while Joseph doesn't. I'd be fine with that. Look, there are some warts in Luongo's career. His playoff resume isn't as sparkling as you'd like it to be. Those losses to Chicago were horrific. However, he did manage to get the Canucks to the final in 2011. He had a couple of poor games, but let's get one thing straight, the Sedins have far too long gotten off the hook for their version of the story as well. They simply did not show up. They were as invisible as invisible can be in a hockey game. Kesler didn't do his part either. So there are the three best players on your team and they didn't show up. Luongo still had a couple of shutouts in the final. The Canucks scored 8 goals in 7 games. Come on. You aren't winning the Cup like that. The goalie does not deserve the blame here. Not more of it than the star players at least.

When you look at things internationally Luongo has the edge here. Clutch game in overtime in the 2004 World Cup. The 2010 Olympics on his NHL ice, now THAT was pressure. Even the 2014 Olympics he had a shutout the only game he played. Joseph had opportunities to be the winning goalie. He blew it in the 1996 World Cup at the end. He blew his only chance in the 2002 Olympics as well. Maybe this doesn't mean a lot to people, but the thing I always thought with Joseph is that eventually he was going to unravel at the end of things. Even with the Leafs he made me a little nervous.

Lastly, look at their Vezina finishes:

Luongo - 2, 3, 3, 4, 7, 7, 10
Joseph - 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 8, 10, 11

It is pretty close. So does Joseph have anything to put himself in the driver's seat here? Not according to the things I wrote above. I don't see what he has that Luongo doesn't at LEAST have.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-28-2014, 11:28 PM
  #28
vadim sharifijanov
Rrbata
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,908
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post

Lastly, look at their Vezina finishes:

Luongo - 2, 3, 3, 4, 7, 7, 10
Joseph - 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 8, 10, 11
wow, that's pretty damn near identical. but joseph is the interesting goalie whose vezina finishes look significantly better than his AST finishes, for whatever reason.

joseph vezina: 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 8, 10
joseph AST: 4, 4, 5, 7, 8, 8

luongo vezina: 2, 3, 3, 4, 7, 7, 10
luongo AST: 2, 2, 3, 3, 5, 8

not making any conclusions from this, just throwing it out there.

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-28-2014, 11:31 PM
  #29
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,469
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
wow, that's pretty damn near identical. but joseph is the interesting goalie whose vezina finishes look significantly better than his AST finishes, for whatever reason.

joseph vezina: 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 8, 10
joseph AST: 4, 4, 5, 7, 8, 8

luongo vezina: 2, 3, 3, 4, 7, 7, 10
luongo AST: 2, 2, 3, 3, 5, 8

not making any conclusions from this, just throwing it out there.
It does show that two different sets of voters saw things differently with Joseph. I'm not sure that's a good thing either for him.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-29-2014, 01:01 AM
  #30
The Panther
Registered User
 
The Panther's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Country: Japan
Posts: 1,200
vCash: 500
They're both good, but to me the difference is that Joseph won playoff series by himself while Luongo is more remembered for not showing his best when it counted.

Joseph in '93 with St.Louis, and in '97 and '98 with Edmonton, won series by himself. This strikes me as something Luongo did not do.

(I don't blame Luongo for the 2011 collapse by the Canucks, btw -- most of the blame for that falls on the Sedins failing to score. Only in hockey would the defender -- and it's always the goalie -- get blamed for the loss when his team scored 3 times over the last four games!)

The Panther is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-29-2014, 01:32 AM
  #31
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,283
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
It does show that two different sets of voters saw things differently with Joseph. I'm not sure that's a good thing either for him.
What should be noted is that Luongo didn't compete with Hasek, Roy, Brodeur (Belfour, Vanbiesbrouck and Richter) for Vezina and AST votes.

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-29-2014, 01:36 AM
  #32
Pegi90*
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 1,441
vCash: 500
that nostalgia part wants to say joseph but reality is that luongo>joseph, especially when lou's career is over.

Pegi90* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-29-2014, 02:11 AM
  #33
quoipourquoi
Moderator
Goaltender
 
quoipourquoi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hockeytown, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 3,643
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Panther View Post
They're both good, but to me the difference is that Joseph won playoff series by himself while Luongo is more remembered for not showing his best when it counted.

Joseph in '93 with St.Louis, and in '97 and '98 with Edmonton, won series by himself. This strikes me as something Luongo did not do.

(I don't blame Luongo for the 2011 collapse by the Canucks, btw -- most of the blame for that falls on the Sedins failing to score. Only in hockey would the defender -- and it's always the goalie -- get blamed for the loss when his team scored 3 times over the last four games!)
In fairness to Luongo, who peaked in his mid-to-late 20s, he only played 12 playoff games before his 30th birthday. He was a .941 in those games and stole a round in which the Canucks were shutout three times with his 228/240 over 7 games.

If Luongo had the opportunity to record more playoff games when he was at his best (Pearson nominee at 24 and 27), he likely would have had more standout series than he does. Even in his thirties, he would go on to have a 126/131 series against the Blues in 2009, and some .933 and .931 series on the way to the 2011 Finals.

quoipourquoi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-29-2014, 02:18 AM
  #34
SillyRabbit
Trix Are For Kids
 
SillyRabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,723
vCash: 500
Wasn't Luongo a nominee (top 3 finalist) for the Hart twice and the Pearson (Lindsay) twice as well?

He did pretty much everything you could ask for him outside of winning Game 7 of the SCF.

If the Canucks did win, he was the frontrunner for the Conn Smythe.

Unless Luongo significantly declines in the next few years, I feel safe saying that he will retire as the better goaltender.

SillyRabbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-29-2014, 02:39 AM
  #35
Cold Medicine
Regist✭red User
 
Cold Medicine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 442
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
In fairness to Luongo, who peaked in his mid-to-late 20s, he only played 12 playoff games before his 30th birthday. He was a .941 in those games and stole a round in which the Canucks were shutout three times with his 228/240 over 7 games.

If Luongo had the opportunity to record more playoff games when he was at his best (Pearson nominee at 24 and 27), he likely would have had more standout series than he does. Even in his thirties, he would go on to have a 126/131 series against the Blues in 2009, and some .933 and .931 series on the way to the 2011 Finals.
That was a weird series against the Stars. Turco actually gave up one less goal than Luongo and both played almost exactly the same amount of time. The next round Luongo faced another goalie playing out of his mind, J.S Giguere.

Both Luongo and Joseph had seasons in which they were statistically better than the Vezina winner. I think Luongo should have at least one, if not two of the Vezinas that Brodeur won, but that's a discussion for a different thread.

Cold Medicine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-29-2014, 02:48 AM
  #36
Peter Skudra
Nucks fan since '02
 
Peter Skudra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Country: Greece
Posts: 97
vCash: 565
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziostilon View Post
Here is the poll from over four years ago... I would say the high point of Luongo's career is over. He did get to game 7 of the finals, but he'll be remembered as one and maybe the main guy that lost the series....Two Olympic goal medals.
Unfairly in my opinion. The Canucks scored a whopping 8 goals in the first six games before getting shut out in game 7. Not saying Luo doesn't deserve his fair share of the blame but he is not the primary reason Vancouver lost the series.


Last edited by Killion: 07-29-2014 at 10:26 AM. Reason: quote function..
Peter Skudra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-29-2014, 10:44 AM
  #37
Epsilon
#TeamHolland
 
Epsilon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Florence, SC
Posts: 36,754
vCash: 500
I think there's a reasonable argument that Joseph was underrated in Vezina and All-Star team voting in the early 90s with St Louis, and overrated (at least in Vezina voting) with Toronto. So in some sense his record is reasonable on the whole, because those end up being relatively a wash.

1998-99 in particular felt like a year where a meme (that Joseph was so much better than his numbers because the Leafs played an "attacking style" and it was because of him they could do that) was given far too much credence in spite of what the actual numbers showed.

Epsilon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-29-2014, 11:15 AM
  #38
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,390
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Skudra View Post
Unfairly in my opinion. The Canucks scored a whopping 8 goals in the first six games before getting shut out in game 7. Not saying Luo doesn't deserve his fair share of the blame but he is not the primary reason Vancouver lost the series.
Agreed. Even if Luongo had his ups and downs during the series.. you don't win a 7 game series with 8 goals for.. Luongo's ups during the series are the only reason there was a series at all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
I think there's a reasonable argument that Joseph was underrated in Vezina and All-Star team voting in the early 90s with St Louis, and overrated (at least in Vezina voting) with Toronto. So in some sense his record is reasonable on the whole, because those end up being relatively a wash.

1998-99 in particular felt like a year where a meme (that Joseph was so much better than his numbers because the Leafs played an "attacking style" and it was because of him they could do that) was given far too much credence in spite of what the actual numbers showed.
Having watched most of those games during his Toronto years, I'd have to disagree.

He was strong for the Leafs.

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-29-2014, 11:26 AM
  #39
Epsilon
#TeamHolland
 
Epsilon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Florence, SC
Posts: 36,754
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
AHaving watched most of those games during his Toronto years, I'd have to disagree.

He was strong for the Leafs.
Strong enough to be taking 1st place Vezina votes (a plurality, no less!) in a season where Hasek beat him in SV% .937 to .910, GAA 1.87 to 2.56, Point Shares 16.8 to 11.6, shutouts 9 to 3, and so on?

Epsilon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-29-2014, 12:22 PM
  #40
JaysCyYoung
Registered User
 
JaysCyYoung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: York Region
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,779
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
I think there's a reasonable argument that Joseph was underrated in Vezina and All-Star team voting in the early 90s with St Louis, and overrated (at least in Vezina voting) with Toronto. So in some sense his record is reasonable on the whole, because those end up being relatively a wash.

1998-99 in particular felt like a year where a meme (that Joseph was so much better than his numbers because the Leafs played an "attacking style" and it was because of him they could do that) was given far too much credence in spite of what the actual numbers showed.
This is absolutely correct and I say that as a Leafs fan. The "Joseph Effect" was always vastly inflated compared to what the numbers actually showed. I've always felt that Joseph was a far better goaltender during his St. Louis years and during the 1997 and 1998 playoffs with Edmonton than any specific stretch with the Leafs.

And echoing what Big Phil stated, I never felt particularly comfortable with him in the post-season. In fact, I cannot think of a single playoff series during his four year tenure in Toronto where it can be reasonably said that Joseph stole a playoff series for the Leafs. Some might say a couple of the Ottawa series', but that was more due to the ineptitude of Lalime in the opposing goal than Joseph. However, I can definitely say that there were series' that the Leafs lost that they should not have: the 2002 Eastern Conference Finals against a thoroughly middling Carolina squad most notably. The Leafs were beat up, but Joseph lost three OT games and was out-duelled by Arturs Irbe. That's not a standout moment on his resume.

Luongo on the other hand seems to me to be a victim of his own success. His 2004 and 2007 seasons are amongst the best by a goaltender of the last 25 years (and admittedly Joseph's 1992-93 stretch would figure onto any list too), leading to serious Hart consideration - he would have actually been a defensible choice over Crosby in 2007 - and an extremely good peak. But I think it led to the perception that any decline in quality from super-human play was entirely his fault and that's not fair. He had minimal offensive support on multiple occasions in Vancouver.

Take the Canucks inability to score during the 2011 Finals. Luongo was the primary reason that the club made it that far and even against Boston (a series in which the perception by casual fans is that Vancouver failed due to Luongo) he had a couple of shutouts in a losing cause. There were moments he could have performed better, but like Joseph being out duelled by guys like the aforementioned Irbe that argument works both ways.

Ultimately I think that Luongo's overall body of work is superior to Joseph. His international resume is better as well: two gold medals (one as a primary starter) and a tremendous fill-in role for Brodeur against the Czechs in the 2004 World Cup semi-finals - a game on my birthday that I attended and in which Lou was beyond stellar. He was the best player in the 1999 World Juniors tournament for a silver medal Canadian squad that nearly upset a clearly superior Russian group, and has a couple of World Championship golds as well. That far outstrips Joseph's choke job against Sweden in 2002 and his infamous meltdown in the 1996 World Cup.

Their peaks were similar and their Vezina voting record almost identical, but Lou has the better all-star voting record and Hart voting record. I think his 2007 season in Vancouver is also the best single year body of work between the two, eclipsing his 2004 season in Florida and Joseph's 1993 season. I think there is a compelling argument that Luongo should have won the Vezina over Brodeur in 2004 and 2007, which is somewhat ironic because, much like Joseph, it might be the reason that ends up keeping him out of the Hall of Fame.

Anyways, Joseph was great but thoroughly unreliable after the first round in the playoffs. He also lost to some inferior opponents. Luongo has the better international resume and a better peak body of work. Give me Lou here.


Last edited by JaysCyYoung: 07-29-2014 at 01:23 PM.
JaysCyYoung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-29-2014, 12:40 PM
  #41
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,390
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Strong enough to be taking 1st place Vezina votes (a plurality, no less!) in a season where Hasek beat him in SV% .937 to .910, GAA 1.87 to 2.56, Point Shares 16.8 to 11.6, shutouts 9 to 3, and so on?
I'm not saying I would have personally voted for him over Hasek that year but there is more than the numbers going on when you look at the contrast between how Buffalo and Toronto played that year too.

You may think that the team effect is exaggerated and I am sure some of the recognition Joseph got was for being lights out for a poor Edmonton team and then coming to the biggest hockey market and continuing to play well.. but he was still great imo.

Obviously at least some of the voters thought so too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
Anyways, Joseph was great but thoroughly unreliable after the first round in the playoffs. He also lost to some inferior opponents.

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-29-2014, 12:43 PM
  #42
Doctor No
Mod Supervisor
Retired?
 
Doctor No's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 24,302
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
Anyways, Joseph was great but thoroughly unreliable after the first round in the playoffs. He also lost to some inferior opponents.
I pulled this together earlier in the month:
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...php?p=87857069

Looks like Joseph did just fine in the playoffs, especially in his prime years.

Doctor No is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-29-2014, 01:04 PM
  #43
JaysCyYoung
Registered User
 
JaysCyYoung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: York Region
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,779
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
I'm not saying I would have personally voted for him over Hasek that year but there is more than the numbers going on when you look at the contrast between how Buffalo and Toronto played that year too.

You may think that the team effect is exaggerated and I am sure some of the recognition Joseph got was for being lights out for a poor Edmonton team and then coming to the biggest hockey market and continuing to play well.. but he was still great imo.

Obviously at least some of the voters thought so too.



Do you have some sort rebuttal beyond an emoticon? I think mine is a very fair assessment, particularly given I watched Joseph play for over 240 games in four years.

Again, Joseph was a great first round goaltender but he struggled to win series beyond that point. His two Conference Finals losses with Toronto in 1999 and 2002 were both to clubs that the Leafs were significantly better than.

Why should he be given a pass for that?

JaysCyYoung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-29-2014, 01:08 PM
  #44
JaysCyYoung
Registered User
 
JaysCyYoung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: York Region
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,779
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
I pulled this together earlier in the month:
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...php?p=87857069

Looks like Joseph did just fine in the playoffs, especially in his prime years.
I never claimed to the contrary. I said he struggled to win past the first round, which he did. He only has two second round series wins to his credit.

JaysCyYoung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-29-2014, 01:11 PM
  #45
JaysCyYoung
Registered User
 
JaysCyYoung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: York Region
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,779
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Strong enough to be taking 1st place Vezina votes (a plurality, no less!) in a season where Hasek beat him in SV% .937 to .910, GAA 1.87 to 2.56, Point Shares 16.8 to 11.6, shutouts 9 to 3, and so on?
It's beyond embarrassing some have defended voting for a man over his peer who posted a .27 point advantage in save percentage , a .69 point advantage in GAA, and 5.2 point advantage in point shares.

There's obviously statistical context in everything, but Hasek's dominance cannot be explained away by Buffalo playing a more defensive style than the Leafs. Especially when the statistical gap - pardon, chasm - is so obviously glaring.

JaysCyYoung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-29-2014, 01:34 PM
  #46
Doctor No
Mod Supervisor
Retired?
 
Doctor No's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 24,302
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
I never claimed to the contrary. I said he struggled to win past the first round, which he did. He only has two second round series wins to his credit.
I wouldn't call losing to a better opponent "unreliable".

Doctor No is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-29-2014, 01:47 PM
  #47
JaysCyYoung
Registered User
 
JaysCyYoung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: York Region
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,779
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
I wouldn't call losing to a better opponent "unreliable".
The Leafs finished ahead of both Buffalo (97-91 points) and Carolina (100-91 points) both occasions they lost in the Conference Finals.

Joseph was outplayed on each occasion, including losing to Dwayne Roloson in relief of Hasek in 1999 against the Sabres.

Again, he had his shining peaks of brilliance in St. Louis and Edmonton, dispatching heavily favoured opponents on three occasions. I find his Leafs record much less impressive by comparison though. The team, beset by injuries, struggled to score in the 2002 series against Carolina, but I'd expect a HOF goalie to win at least ONE of three OT games. That's not unreasonable to expect from a designated franchise guy.

Edit: lest I be giving off the wrong impression, Joseph was always one of my favourite Leafs. My affection for the guy as an individual and player should not be in doubt. However I think many Leafs fans have an overly glamorous perspective of his tenure in Toronto that is hardly impartial. That sort of bias needs to be removed in these discussions. It's my assessment that Luongo was the more gifted goaltender.


Last edited by JaysCyYoung: 07-29-2014 at 01:56 PM.
JaysCyYoung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-29-2014, 01:56 PM
  #48
Copmuters
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 722
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
If I am picking, I would say Luongo gets in the HHOF while Joseph doesn't.
Joseph is 4th all-time in wins behind Brodeur, Roy and Belfour

Copmuters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-29-2014, 01:57 PM
  #49
vadim sharifijanov
Rrbata
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,908
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Panther View Post
They're both good, but to me the difference is that Joseph won playoff series by himself while Luongo is more remembered for not showing his best when it counted.

Joseph in '93 with St.Louis, and in '97 and '98 with Edmonton, won series by himself. This strikes me as something Luongo did not do.

(I don't blame Luongo for the 2011 collapse by the Canucks, btw -- most of the blame for that falls on the Sedins failing to score. Only in hockey would the defender -- and it's always the goalie -- get blamed for the loss when his team scored 3 times over the last four games!)
as stated upthread, luongo definitely won the dallas series in '07 by himself. after that, he didn't have to singlehandedly win those series against st. louis, LA, chicago, nashville, and san jose all by himself, though at times he played well enough to do just that; the canucks were just too good those years. which is not to say that it wouldn't have been nice if he'd pulled a patrick roy and beat the hawks for us in '09 and '10, or the Bs in '11. but i don't think living up to edmonton cujo is necessarily fair, as luongo was only in that situation once in his career.

the bigger issue is luongo's supposed prime, and what we make of his career post-2011, which i'll address further down.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Lastly, look at their Vezina finishes:

Luongo - 2, 3, 3, 4, 7, 7, 10
Joseph - 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 8, 10, 11

It is pretty close. So does Joseph have anything to put himself in the driver's seat here? Not according to the things I wrote above. I don't see what he has that Luongo doesn't at LEAST have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
wow, that's pretty damn near identical. but joseph is the interesting goalie whose vezina finishes look significantly better than his AST finishes, for whatever reason.

joseph vezina: 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 8, 10
joseph AST: 4, 4, 5, 7, 8, 8

luongo vezina: 2, 3, 3, 4, 7, 7, 10
luongo AST: 2, 2, 3, 3, 5, 8

not making any conclusions from this, just throwing it out there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
It does show that two different sets of voters saw things differently with Joseph. I'm not sure that's a good thing either for him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
What should be noted is that Luongo didn't compete with Hasek, Roy, Brodeur (Belfour, Vanbiesbrouck and Richter) for Vezina and AST votes.
i was curious about joseph's vezina record, and why it looks so much better than his AST record, so i went through it in more detail. these are the guys cujo finished behind when he received vezina votes, with notes about differential in AST voting :

'92: two ballots, no AST
'93: belfour, barrasso (also behind potvin in AST voting)
'94: hasek, beezer, roy (8th in AST voting, only appeared four vezina ballots)
'95: one ballot, no AST
'97: hasek, brodeur, roy, hebert (8th in AST voting, only appeared on two vezina ballots)
'99: hasek (also decisively behind dafoe AST voting, slightly behind tugnutt as well but with more 1st place votes)
'00: kolzig, turek (also behind brodeur and belfour in AST voting)
'01: two ballots, no AST
'02: one ballot, no AST

here's luongo:

'04: brodeur, kiprusoff (slightly ahead of turco but with significantly more first place votes; decisive 2nd in AST ahead of kipper and turco)
'06: 7th/two ballots in vezina; 8th/ten ballots in AST (suggesting that his insignificant vezina voting sample might not just be statistical noise, or at least that the writers agree with the GMs)
'07: extremely close 2nd in vezina (difference of brodeur receiving first place votes on two ballots where luongo received a second and a third place); decisively 2nd behind brodeur in AST
'08: 7th/three ballots in vezina; 5th in AST/six ballots
'09: thomas wins decisively; luongo is three points behind mason, one point behind backstrom (ten points ahead of nabokov, who is 5th); 3rd in AST, decisively behind mason, decisively ahead of backstrom
'10: one ballot, no AST
'11: thomas, rinne (same results in AST)

i don't know that a definitive conclusion can be made from their respective voting records, but here are a few provisional ones:

- joseph's vezina record looks better than it really was, due to receiving a few votes in years where not a lot of guys got any votes at all, resulting in statistically insignificant 4th and 5th place vezina finishes in years where the AST voting does not corroborate his vezina placements

- some luongo supporters suggest that luongo's vezina finishes could be higher, citing his very close finishes behind brodeur (2nd) and behind mason and backstrom (4th). however, the AST voting in those years placed him decisively behind brodeur (2nd) and behind thomas and mason (3rd), so we would have to take the closeness of those vezina races with a grain of salt


it'll take a bit of time to write, but i'm going to put together a year-by-year of luongo in vancouver, trying to account for his mental and technical game, which changed a lot over those seven and a half years.

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-29-2014, 05:18 PM
  #50
Pegi90*
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 1,441
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cold Medicine View Post
I think Luongo should have at least one, if not two of the Vezinas that Brodeur won, but that's a discussion for a different thread.
yes maybe but brodeur not winning the vezina before 2003 was just ridiclous and disrespectful.

vezina is reputation trophy or used to be.

Pegi90* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:10 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.