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Jagr's playoff legacy

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07-31-2014, 09:57 PM
  #51
Czech Your Math
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daver View Post
That wasn't my necessarily opinion but since you brought it up, you then must give Crosby credit for regular season PPG finishes of 1.61 and 1.56 and a higher peak than Jagr, right?
Players are given the same opportunity to play the same number of games, with at least a somewhat balanced schedule, regardless of how good or bad their teams are.

Obviously the same opportunity isn't given to players in the post-season.

Hey, you can keep starting threads that are merely thinly veiled attacks on Jagr, and using your strict definition (points in a single playoff season, regardless of era or circumstances) to determine the better playoff performer. No one's stopping you.

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07-31-2014, 10:08 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Players are given the same opportunity to play the same number of games, with at least a somewhat balanced schedule, regardless of how good or bad their teams are.

Obviously the same opportunity isn't given to players in the post-season.

Hey, you can keep starting threads that are merely thinly veiled attacks on Jagr, and using your strict definition (points in a single playoff season, regardless of era or circumstances) to determine the better playoff performer. No one's stopping you.
Listen I don't think anyone is saying Jagr was anything less than a good-great playoff performer. Just that his resume would look that much better with one or two really special runs. The career numbers speak for themselves. But I give some extra credit when a run like Sakics is there with some serious numbers. I don't know if anyone can really argue that Sakics legacy wouldn't be slightly lessened if those 20-35 point post-season were 10-15 point 1st and 2nd round exits.

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07-31-2014, 10:12 PM
  #53
Dennis Bonvie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
PPG finishes in playoff, per HR.com:

Jagr- 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 6
Crosby- 2, 2, 3, 4

Of course, one of Jagr's third place finishes, he elevated his linemate Nylander to 1st... and when he finished 6th, he elevated his linemate Francis to 2nd.

Yes, Crosby has more raw points in one playoff season.
If you think that makes him superior to Jagr as a playoff performer, you are entitled to your opinion.
I must say, that is one creative argument.

Just wondering, how does Jagr elevate anyone by scoring less points than they do, considering scoring points is the only thing he does?

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07-31-2014, 10:25 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
PPG finishes in playoff, per HR.com:

Jagr- 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 6
Crosby- 2, 2, 3, 4
Count me among those who thinks Jagr would have those impressive single season individual point totals if his team was also good enough during his prime years to play enough games.

Their D and goaltending was especially poor.

Quote:
Of course, one of Jagr's third place finishes, he elevated his linemate Nylander to 1st... and when he finished 6th, he elevated his linemate Francis to 2nd.
You should leave well enough alone. This is really grasping.

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07-31-2014, 10:32 PM
  #55
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Are we sure that claim about Jagr (6th) elevating Francis (2nd) wasn't some sort of quirky Norm MacDonald humor?

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07-31-2014, 10:35 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Are we sure that claim about Jagr (6th) elevating Francis (2nd) wasn't some sort of quirky Norm MacDonald humor?
I definitely found that to be a bit of a stretch as well.

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07-31-2014, 10:43 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Are we sure that claim about Jagr (6th) elevating Francis (2nd) wasn't some sort of quirky Norm MacDonald humor?
We can hope so!

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07-31-2014, 10:44 PM
  #58
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NO 5 all time in playoff points and 2 cups, If that was your legacy how great would you feel?

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07-31-2014, 10:46 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by supsens View Post
NO 5 all time in playoff points and 2 cups, If that was your legacy how great would you feel?
Pretty awesome!

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07-31-2014, 10:49 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Players are given the same opportunity to play the same number of games, with at least a somewhat balanced schedule, regardless of how good or bad their teams are.

Obviously the same opportunity isn't given to players in the post-season.

Hey, you can keep starting threads that are merely thinly veiled attacks on Jagr, and using your strict definition (points in a single playoff season, regardless of era or circumstances) to determine the better playoff performer. No one's stopping you.
To a certain extent it is but we won't go down that road.

And show me in the OP where I defined anything as being a better indication of playoff performance. I asked for people's opinions on whether it matters or not. I'll assume you don't think it does and we can be done with this but I look forward to referencing a players PPG in comparison to raw points in future threads.

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07-31-2014, 11:16 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by supsens View Post
NO 5 all time in playoff points and 2 cups, If that was your legacy how great would you feel?
Worse than Gordie Howe.

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07-31-2014, 11:46 PM
  #62
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Jagr is basically a point per game guy in the playoffs who's 2-1 in Finals. I don't see how that reflects badly on him. He is 4 for 4 in scoring a point per game when his teams lose in the first round. He played for an underachieving Penguins team, but that;s not on him.

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08-01-2014, 12:38 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Worse than Gordie Howe.
Who was comparing him to Howe?

But since you are... how is having more playoff points worse?

Wasn't that the Howe that was injured in the first game of the playoffs, didn't play any more PO games that year, but that counts as him "winning the Cup?" Of course, playing on a powerhouse in a six team league, with less overall talent than now, it wasn't easier to win Cups.

But when Jagr scored a crucial OT to avoid going down 0-2... he was merely a "passenger." Yeah, i understand how it goes around here.

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08-01-2014, 12:42 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
To a certain extent it is but we won't go down that road.

And show me in the OP where I defined anything as being a better indication of playoff performance. I asked for people's opinions on whether it matters or not. I'll assume you don't think it does and we can be done with this but I look forward to referencing a players PPG in comparison to raw points in future threads.
The playoffs are vastly unequal in terms of opportunity, as I said.

Don't play dumb, you know exactly what you are doing.

As it stands, Jagr is tops among non-Oilers in playoff points... finished first in playoff PPG three times and top 3 five times... and elevated linemates to similar finishes. He's won a ton of playoff series, including against #1 or #2 seeds, scored crucial, clutch PO goals, and won a couple Cups. I don't think there's much more he could have done given the (lack of) strength of his teams during his peak/prime years.

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08-01-2014, 12:54 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
I must say, that is one creative argument.

Just wondering, how does Jagr elevate anyone by scoring less points than they do, considering scoring points is the only thing he does?


Well said

Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Who was comparing him to Howe?

But since you are... how is having more playoff points worse?

Wasn't that the Howe that was injured in the first game of the playoffs, didn't play any more PO games that year, but that counts as him "winning the Cup?" Of course, playing on a powerhouse in a six team league, with less overall talent than now, it wasn't easier to win Cups.

But when Jagr scored a crucial OT to avoid going down 0-2... he was merely a "passenger." Yeah, i understand how it goes around here.
Sheesh, give it a break. Are you seriously comparing raw unadjusted playoff career point totals between two players who played in vastly different eras? You've done a lot of good work in adjusted scoring and you really risk losing your credibility when you post things like this

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08-01-2014, 06:13 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
The playoffs are vastly unequal in terms of opportunity, as I said.

Don't play dumb, you know exactly what you are doing.

As it stands, Jagr is tops among non-Oilers in playoff points... finished first in playoff PPG three times and top 3 five times... and elevated linemates to similar finishes. He's won a ton of playoff series, including against #1 or #2 seeds, scored crucial, clutch PO goals, and won a couple Cups. I don't think there's much more he could have done given the (lack of) strength of his teams during his peak/prime years.
There's nothing in the OP that talks about PPG or pace but it does seem a bit hypocritical that one player gets credit for pace in one circumstance and another does not in another circumstance.

The usual arguments, not necessarily yours, are you can't give credit for something that the player never accomplished before i.e. a 125+ point season and that PPG goes down with more games played which seems to be is even more applicable in the playoffs as the later rounds get tougher.

So what's the difference?


Last edited by daver: 08-01-2014 at 07:51 AM.
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08-01-2014, 11:52 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by zeropotentate View Post
Jagr sits at 199 playoff points. Only 4 others have more: Anderson, Kurri, Messier, Gretzky.

Hopefully Jagr will get at least 1 more point in the playoffs before retiring. And if he never went to the KHL his playoff point totals might be higher than Anderson's.

I don't see how that hurts his legacy, wouldn't it add to it?
you would think 199 playoff points would add to his legacy but he faces a modern analysis, which ultimately turns into a micro detailed look at why he didn't dominate every shift.

Pretty much every player, if they play long enough, will have a "downside" to their careers but as you point out 199 playoff points is a really good downside when one thinks about it.

That being said he isn't in my top 10 playoff performers but he isn't in the playoff bust territory either an it's not even close really.

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08-01-2014, 12:08 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Worse than Gordie Howe.
Probably but then again playoffs isn't the strongest reference point in Howe's locker either.

It's probably debatable as to which player was the better playoff performer over their career with so many variables to consider.

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08-01-2014, 05:19 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
That wasn't my necessarily opinion but since you brought it up, you then must give Crosby credit for regular season PPG finishes of 1.61 and 1.56 and a higher peak than Jagr, right?
Funny thing is Jagr had "full seasons" of 1.57 and 1.82 PPG which is still higher than Crosby's 41 and 36 games.

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08-01-2014, 05:21 PM
  #70
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Crosby>jagr peak playoffs

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08-01-2014, 05:33 PM
  #71
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Crosby>jagr peak playoffs
Any evidence to back up your claim?

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08-01-2014, 07:15 PM
  #72
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Prepare yourself for the double standard to end all double standards.

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08-01-2014, 08:23 PM
  #73
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Any evidence to back up your claim?
Crosby 31 points and 27 more than jagr has ever had. Idk about what if. Tell jagr to get a playoff scoring titlr

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08-02-2014, 01:22 AM
  #74
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Jagr basically didn't have a bad playoffs. In fact he didn't ever have a bad season except the couple in Washington. Even those couple of seasons are only mediocre compared to HHOF standards.

Plays from 18-42 or 43 years old and is a star or superstar every single year. From a talented manchild youngster on a couple of Cup teams, to the key player outside of Hasek on an underdog Gold Medal Olympic team... to a Superstar rekindled in New York, to a great KHL player, to a very, very effective top 6 or top line forward in his 40's again. A veteran that everyone loves.

Jagr has only the couple of Capitals seasons as blemishes on his career.... that is it. His playoffs have been great. I really think in the future his legend will grow.

Few truly great players have faced the criticism Jagr has... and the longer his career goes on the more it is clearly unwarranted. He is a true pro and he has been money in every big game every season.

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08-02-2014, 01:31 AM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
Jagr basically didn't have a bad playoffs. In fact he didn't ever have a bad season except the couple in Washington. Even those couple of seasons are only mediocre compared to HHOF standards.

Plays from 18-42 or 43 years old and is a star or superstar every single year. From a talented manchild youngster on a couple of Cup teams, to the key player outside of Hasek on an underdog Gold Medal Olympic team... to a Superstar rekindled in New York, to a great KHL player, to a very, very effective top 6 or top line forward in his 40's again. A veteran that everyone loves.

Jagr has only the couple of Capitals seasons as blemishes on his career.... that is it. His playoffs have been great. I really think in the future his legend will grow.

Few truly great players have faced the criticism Jagr has... and the longer his career goes on the more it is clearly unwarranted. He is a true pro and he has been money in every big game every season.
Clearly not true. See 2001 and 2006 for starters

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