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08-14-2014, 06:27 PM
  #101
triggrman
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Yeah, it means that Jones isn't as much of a liability.

Ellis isn't anywhere near as good as Jones at any thing.

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08-14-2014, 07:14 PM
  #102
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Yeah, it means that Jones isn't as much of a liability.

Ellis isn't anywhere near as good as Jones at any thing.
This is just downright silly.

Ellis was a better player all-around this season simply put. Just because Jones played more minutes doesn't make him a better player. I don't know what gives everyone that idea. Jones was given more of an opportunity to prove himself this season and he still was not as good. Do you really think Ellis would not have had a better season if he had not been given the chance to play 24-25 minutes a night with Weber for the same amount of time? When Ellis was put on the second pairing and given more responsibility he thrived, while Jones played his worst hockey in that spot.

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08-14-2014, 07:45 PM
  #103
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Who would you rather have on your blue line next year? What about 5 years from now. Pretty simple if you ask me. Ellis is a good player. Seems to have a laid back nature but is pretty good with the puck. He's very smart but has a ceiling for sure. Jones on the other hand has so much more potential just from his size and skating abilities.

Ellis will be signed, he'll play on the third pairing with Volchenkov and he'll get 2nd pp minutes. Yippee.

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08-14-2014, 08:24 PM
  #104
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Jones has the higher ceiling, but Ellis was much better the second half the season.
For being small, Ellis uses his body much more effectively.
Jones is weak, but he's a kid. It'll come.

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08-14-2014, 08:54 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by dougie1107 View Post
This is just downright silly.

Ellis was a better player all-around this season simply put. Just because Jones played more minutes doesn't make him a better player. I don't know what gives everyone that idea. Jones was given more of an opportunity to prove himself this season and he still was not as good. Do you really think Ellis would not have had a better season if he had not been given the chance to play 24-25 minutes a night with Weber for the same amount of time? When Ellis was put on the second pairing and given more responsibility he thrived, while Jones played his worst hockey in that spot.
Dude, just stop.

Ellis played the easiest minutes since Cody Franson's rookie year.

You're over in the Nichushkin\Jones trade threat suggesting that it's a fair deal.

There's a clear agenda here...I'm not sure if you've got some grudge against Jones or some irrational love of Ellis, but the only, and I mean ONLY thing Ellis has on Jones...now and in the future...is his slapshot. Jones was better than Ellis in every single way. If you felt that Jones was somehow exposed, it was because he was actually on the ice for defensive zone faceoffs. Playing the penalty kill.

"Mr Reliable" Ryan Ellis did neither.

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08-14-2014, 09:19 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by barrytrotzsneck View Post
Dude, just stop.

Ellis played the easiest minutes since Cody Franson's rookie year.

You're over in the Nichushkin\Jones trade threat suggesting that it's a fair deal.

There's a clear agenda here...I'm not sure if you've got some grudge against Jones or some irrational love of Ellis, but the only, and I mean ONLY thing Ellis has on Jones...now and in the future...is his slapshot. Jones was better than Ellis in every single way. If you felt that Jones was somehow exposed, it was because he was actually on the ice for defensive zone faceoffs. Playing the penalty kill.

"Mr Reliable" Ryan Ellis did neither.
Exactly.

And for the record, I watch defensemen the most.

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08-14-2014, 10:12 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by barrytrotzsneck View Post
Dude, just stop.

Ellis played the easiest minutes since Cody Franson's rookie year.

You're over in the Nichushkin\Jones trade threat suggesting that it's a fair deal.

There's a clear agenda here...I'm not sure if you've got some grudge against Jones or some irrational love of Ellis, but the only, and I mean ONLY thing Ellis has on Jones...now and in the future...is his slapshot. Jones was better than Ellis in every single way. If you felt that Jones was somehow exposed, it was because he was actually on the ice for defensive zone faceoffs. Playing the penalty kill.

"Mr Reliable" Ryan Ellis did neither.
I never said it was a fair deal, I said people were overrating his rookie season. I still think Jones is going to be an amazing defenseman, with his skating and size. But I think his play right now is vastly overrated. Every time I try and say his play was mediocre-to-bad everyone just points at his minutes. Eric Nystrom played second line minutes for awhile this season, and it didn't make him better than a fourth line forward.

And again, at the end of the season when Ellis was playing harder minutes, he flourished, compared to Jones struggling.

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08-14-2014, 10:46 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by dougie1107 View Post
I never said it was a fair deal, I said people were overrating his rookie season. I still think Jones is going to be an amazing defenseman, with his skating and size. But I think his play right now is vastly overrated. Every time I try and say his play was mediocre-to-bad everyone just points at his minutes. Eric Nystrom played second line minutes for awhile this season, and it didn't make him better than a fourth line forward.

And again, at the end of the season when Ellis was playing harder minutes, he flourished, compared to Jones struggling.
Jones hit a bit of a wall, late in the season as many rookies do in their first year in the NHL.

Ellis hit the same wall and its taken him three years to get past it.

If Jones is still struggling in his third pro season, then you might have a point...

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08-15-2014, 04:44 AM
  #109
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Jones at 19 playing one of the tougher positions in the league to just step into at a young age. Ellis having done it a couple of years you would hope he could be slightly better. Call me crazy but I don't see Ellis keeping up very well in that battle for long.

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08-15-2014, 05:39 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dougie1107 View Post
I never said it was a fair deal, I said people were overrating his rookie season. I still think Jones is going to be an amazing defenseman, with his skating and size. But I think his play right now is vastly overrated. Every time I try and say his play was mediocre-to-bad everyone just points at his minutes. Eric Nystrom played second line minutes for awhile this season, and it didn't make him better than a fourth line forward.

And again, at the end of the season when Ellis was playing harder minutes, he flourished, compared to Jones struggling.
But Ellis was never playing the harder minutes. He was still playing protected minutes even in February. The only time Elis minutes went up was late in March after Jones was injured.

Late in January, Jones was still playing up to 24 minutes a game, Ellis never played 22 minutes a game.


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08-15-2014, 08:47 AM
  #111
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This conversation seems kind of destructive to me. Why does the evaluation of one player require the trashing of another - both ours. Ellis had a very good year. A break-out year. Period. His numbers were better (pretty close if you discount plus/minus) than Jones. Jones is still a kid - coming from the WHL to the NHL. Played a lot of minutes showed great potential. He will be a future #1 pairing all-star in all likelihood. We may have rushed him a little but he held up. After that - why trash either?

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08-15-2014, 09:24 AM
  #112
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I'm not trashing anyone or not trying too.

I like Ellis but he's got a lot to prove still. His elite offense hasn't translated to the NHL as of yet.

Although he did grow a lot last season, he's still playing at a bottom pairing pace and is being passed up by other defensemen.

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08-15-2014, 10:06 AM
  #113
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OK. We probably disagree on Ellis. I think he has arrived. These posts made me look up his numbers and they were better than I realized. I don't think we should expect him to be elite - just top four - and he's there now - at least IMO.

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08-15-2014, 10:27 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
Exactly.

And for the record, I watch defensemen the most.
So you know that they play in pairs, not lines, right

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08-15-2014, 10:28 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Nothing Is New View Post
OK. We probably disagree on Ellis. I think he has arrived. These posts made me look up his numbers and they were better than I realized. I don't think we should expect him to be elite - just top four - and he's there now - at least IMO.
I don't think he had a breakout year, unless you consider how mediocre his previous seasons were.

He was improved, for sure, but he was still only "okay"

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08-15-2014, 11:08 AM
  #116
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So you know that they play in pairs, not lines, right
Unless I'm playing, then I'm on a defensive pair but might be up with the scoring line :-)

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08-15-2014, 11:33 AM
  #117
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Ellis has improved a lot but so much that you give him a 7 yr contract. That is for your core players and Ellis isn't one yet. You give him a bridge contract of 2 yrs and see where Ekholm, Jones, and Ellis all are at.

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08-15-2014, 11:57 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
But Ellis was never playing the harder minutes. He was still playing protected minutes even in February. The only time Elis minutes went up was late in March after Jones was injured.

Late in January, Jones was still playing up to 24 minutes a game, Ellis never played 22 minutes a game.
The Ekholm/Ellis pairing was clearly the "2nd" pairing for about the last 1/4 of the season, bumping Jones/MDZ/Bartley to 3rd pairing minutes. Obviously this trend is unlikely to continue, but it's false to say Ellis's minutes never got harder. He played great down the stretch, and coincidentally, so did the entire team.

I think Ellis can handle being a #4 guy on a good team, but it's just not gonna happen with Weber and Jones both here. One of Jones or Ellis should be traded within the next 2 years IMO.

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08-15-2014, 02:28 PM
  #119
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If he gets more than 2.5m or less than 1.7m I would be surprised. He will sign before to much longer I am sure and it will probably be in the range I listed here. Term will decide the number more than anything I think.

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08-15-2014, 02:34 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
The Ekholm/Ellis pairing was clearly the "2nd" pairing for about the last 1/4 of the season, bumping Jones/MDZ/Bartley to 3rd pairing minutes. Obviously this trend is unlikely to continue, but it's false to say Ellis's minutes never got harder. He played great down the stretch, and coincidentally, so did the entire team.

I think Ellis can handle being a #4 guy on a good team, but it's just not gonna happen with Weber and Jones both here. One of Jones or Ellis should be traded within the next 2 years IMO.
On the last game of the season, Jones had 20 seconds less than Ellis.

I will give you Ellis ice time did increase the last 20 games, but remember, Jones was injured missed 4 games and was eased back into the line-up according to Trotz.

However, Ellis never played on the pk and was still protected with more offensive zone starts.

As soon as Jones came back he was right back on the pk and even the last game of the season had nearly 2 minutes on the pk.

Ellis has never been trusted by Trotz to play the hard minutes. He's always been sheltered away from defensive zone starts and off the penalty kill.

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08-15-2014, 03:33 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
On the last game of the season, Jones had 20 seconds less than Ellis.

I will give you Ellis ice time did increase the last 20 games, but remember, Jones was injured missed 4 games and was eased back into the line-up according to Trotz.

However, Ellis never played on the pk and was still protected with more offensive zone starts.

As soon as Jones came back he was right back on the pk and even the last game of the season had nearly 2 minutes on the pk.

Ellis has never been trusted by Trotz to play the hard minutes. He's always been sheltered away from defensive zone starts and off the penalty kill.
I'm not saying Ellis doesn't play protected minutes. Of course he does. I'm saying he was given more responsibility down the stretch compared to the rest of the season. Kind of the opposite of Jones - Jones saw his responsibilities decrease towards the end of the season (which is understandable, given he's a kid)

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08-15-2014, 04:33 PM
  #122
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Jones is going to be a superstar IMO, Ellis will be a top four definitely IMO with 1st PP unit skills. Both are very valuable. Just don't get how this thread turned into a jones vs Ellis thread...

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08-15-2014, 10:23 PM
  #123
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it really is crazy.. i just don't think ellis' body of work is more than a third pairing defenseman at this point. he will always be undersized in a league constantly getting bigger and stronger and faster. pay him like a 3rd pairing defenseman on a 2 year deal (1.5 AAV) or go for a long term contract looking to keep his hit low. i think a 2 year deal worth 3 million is what we see and see how he progresses and look to lock him up similar to a josi contract after the 2 years of progressing or maybe he regresses.

btw for 4 years, I'd give him 10 million total. I'm not convinced on ellis just yet. wouldn't even really be thrilled about 10 million either but if it got the deal done I'd probably give in if i was DP
I think Ellis would fit in nicely in Edmonton with his old team Canada team mates from back in the old day and Edmonton could use dmen, I just don't know what it'll take to get him. It'll have to be a forward but the only one I can think NAshville will target is Yakupov or Perron. Yakupov will cost alot more than Ellis thats for sure!

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08-15-2014, 10:55 PM
  #124
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Why hasn't he signed yet?
Because Nashville has loads of cap space and many options on D such as Weber, Jones, and Rosi... His offense will be better used in the top 6 Forward role if Nashville can trade him for something worthy, then they still can promote some of those defensive defensemen in the minors to compliment the puck movers having a guy like Weber(my favorite Dman) in control, they don't need barry Troz when your captain is Shea Weber to teach young Dmen how to be a professional dman.. If it were not for Shea Weber the whole defensive core wouldn't compete the way they do... Thats why he's the best Dman in the NHL, because he's a Chara type of leader(with out the size) but is more skilled like a Doughty(without the youth) all in one. & a

I think Ellis "would" be a great D partner for Darnell Nurse as well as playing on the same team as old buds Eberle and Hall... I think Edmonton would be one of the most "once apon a time world jr throw back teams" in the NHL with Eberle/Hall/Ellis on the same team creating chemistry therefore creating a culture. Another team I see good chemistry is NYI playing with Tavares and the need of a franchise culture change.

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08-16-2014, 11:12 AM
  #125
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Because Nashville has loads of cap space and many options on D such as Weber, Jones, and Rosi... His offense will be better used in the top 6 Forward role if Nashville can trade him for something worthy, then they still can promote some of those defensive defensemen in the minors to compliment the puck movers having a guy like Weber(my favorite Dman) in control, they don't need barry Troz when your captain is Shea Weber to teach young Dmen how to be a professional dman.. If it were not for Shea Weber the whole defensive core wouldn't compete the way they do... Thats why he's the best Dman in the NHL, because he's a Chara type of leader(with out the size) but is more skilled like a Doughty(without the youth) all in one. & a

I think Ellis "would" be a great D partner for Darnell Nurse as well as playing on the same team as old buds Eberle and Hall... I think Edmonton would be one of the most "once apon a time world jr throw back teams" in the NHL with Eberle/Hall/Ellis on the same team creating chemistry therefore creating a culture. Another team I see good chemistry is NYI playing with Tavares and the need of a franchise culture change.
I may be missing something but when did Eberle play with hall and Ellis? I know Ellis and hall played together in the ohl. But Eberle was whl and is also a little older.

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