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With all the Messier bashing going on on the various boards why...

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Old
09-15-2005, 07:12 PM
  #26
BringBackNeilSmith
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Hated him for how he hung Roger Neilson out to dry. Still hold him in contempt for that, Cup and all. Can't deny his on-ice accomplishments, but I always found his public persona highly self-serving and could never warm to the guy at all. Calling him a lousy player over a career is just incredibly stupid...even with my feelings I had to give him full credit on an awful lot of nights. But Boy oh boy, wonder how many more games we would've won during his second tour without those damned blueline turnovers on the power play...high risk, high reward only works when you can make the rewards happen and those days were long gone. Love him or not, it sure was time and then some. My avatar was right to let him go when he did...the on-ice magic was all gone.

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09-15-2005, 07:37 PM
  #27
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If the fools that make such comments can not seperate

Quote:
Originally Posted by JR#9
is it that SBOB and myself appear to be the only ones straightening out all these homers that post such nonsense and it's always the same guys with their anti-NYR nonsense.

Maybe it doesn't bother most but when I see guys pulling up Gino Odjick quotes in some lame attaempt to slam an alltime great like Mess by using that bum Odjicks words I just have to jump in and call them for their nonsense.

I have no problem with people having different opinions but when it's puely driven by homerism and it's always the same people spouting off such nonsense I feel compeled to respond.
their bias from the reality there is little you can do change their thoughts. They are just ignorant people. Like I said in my appreciation post, I had been watching hockey for some 20-25 years before Messier came onto the scene. Before then I was always searching for what I considered to be the perfect forward (Orr is the perfect player, let alone defenseman). I was very lucky to get a multiple of channels in NY, thus I got to see quite a bit of edmonton, once I laid eyes on this guy I knew I had seen what I had been looking for. Much like all 2nd banannas sometimes their value is not fully appreciated. Messier came out of the shadows of Gretzky and Coffey and the rest to firmly establish himself on his own merits. For someone not to recognize the statue of a player is not really being a fan of the game. As much as I hated Espo and Orr, there was no denying their contributions and talent, same with Potvin and Trottier. They were and are greats of the game.
On the other hand Brodeur and stevens still, well you know what.

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09-15-2005, 07:39 PM
  #28
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im sorry but anyone that puts Messier out of any top 10 shouldn't be taken seriously

you can not argue facts

2 all time in points (and countless other recorsd)
6 cups


that is only the tangible aspects, do we need to get into everything else?

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09-15-2005, 07:42 PM
  #29
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What you say is true about Neilson and his over staying

Quote:
Originally Posted by BringBackNeilSmith
Hated him for how he hung Roger Neilson out to dry. Still hold him in contempt for that, Cup and all. Can't deny his on-ice accomplishments, but I always found his public persona highly self-serving and could never warm to the guy at all. Calling him a lousy player over a career is just incredibly stupid...even with my feelings I had to give him full credit on an awful lot of nights. But Boy oh boy, wonder how many more games we would've won during his second tour without those damned blueline turnovers on the power play...high risk, high reward only works when you can make the rewards happen and those days were long gone. Love him or not, it sure was time and then some. My avatar was right to let him go when he did...the on-ice magic was all gone.
as a player. Smith was wrong to let him go and I will tell you why. The garden payed Patrick Ewing $18M to choke in the finals and they couldn't give Messier his due for delivering a long sought after cup? NYR winning the cup was kin to the Redsucks and Cubbies winning the W.S. That was some big monkey to get off of the organizations back and no player other than Mess could have done what he did. People forget how he stepped in when Keenan was about to self implode in the devil series. It was Messier steppping in on another coach that saved the bacon.

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Old
09-15-2005, 08:02 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BringBackNeilSmith
Hated him for how he hung Roger Neilson out to dry. Still hold him in contempt for that, Cup and all. Can't deny his on-ice accomplishments, but I always found his public persona highly self-serving and could never warm to the guy at all. Calling him a lousy player over a career is just incredibly stupid...even with my feelings I had to give him full credit on an awful lot of nights. But Boy oh boy, wonder how many more games we would've won during his second tour without those damned blueline turnovers on the power play...high risk, high reward only works when you can make the rewards happen and those days were long gone. Love him or not, it sure was time and then some. My avatar was right to let him go when he did...the on-ice magic was all gone.

Bottom line is that the Rangers won the cup. Unfortunatly what happened is part of life and business and I myself have had to do it. Nobody really likes doing it (and Messier himself didn't take "Joy" from it.) The Rangers were not going to win the cup with Roger. Love him or hate him, Neilson was the Buck Showalter of the hockey world.

This team wasn't going to win a lot of games regardless of those turnovers because too many of the "prime" players didn't do jack and the team was built the wrong way.

And we won't even get into a Smith debate, Smith's days as an effective GM ended in March of 1994.

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09-15-2005, 08:27 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
Bottom line is that the Rangers won the cup. Unfortunatly what happened is part of life and business and I myself have had to do it. Nobody really likes doing it (and Messier himself didn't take "Joy" from it.) The Rangers were not going to win the cup with Roger. Love him or hate him, Neilson was the Buck Showalter of the hockey world.

This team wasn't going to win a lot of games regardless of those turnovers because too many of the "prime" players didn't do jack and the team was built the wrong way.

And we won't even get into a Smith debate, Smith's days as an effective GM ended in March of 1994.
You know what? Looking back now, I'd have to agree. And I was pissed the day Smith was canned with that slug Muckler. I was watching Game 6 of the '94 semi-finals the other night - a 4-on-4 consisting of Messier, Kovalev, Leetch and Zubov. That was so much fun to watch. Of course, the game isn't played like that anymore. But, the trades...UGH!!! Even when Smith pulled off a good one - Matteau for Lappy, or Knuble for a 3rd pick, he sucked after it. The drafting was horrible - NOTHING to show for the '96 draft, the development was non-existent - (maybe York turned out to be a player because he stayed four years at college) and, he maintained the now all-too-famous mantra, "you can't rebuild in NY", which I have fears the current group also somewhat embraces.

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09-15-2005, 08:56 PM
  #32
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The Rangers needed Keenan...

to win that Cup. From day 1, the team was focused to win. From the time they beat the Maple Leafs in England during the preseason, or even before when Keenan walked onto the ice and broke a stick over the crossbar. All the pieces were in place that year, for a very, very narrow victory. With Nielson, I get the sense, although we will nver no, that we'd still be hearing 1940.

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09-15-2005, 09:09 PM
  #33
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Agreed w/ Fletch. I think that some people underestimate Keenan's role.

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Old
09-15-2005, 09:58 PM
  #34
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The hardest part was that Neilson was a very likeable guy. But at the end of the day you make a decision on someone you think can put you over the top.

I liked Neilson but I just can't see us winning in 94 with him. This team flopped hard in the 92 playoffs and the 93 season was extremely disappointing.

You hate to see a good guy go, but Keenan was the right coach with the right approach at the right time.

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09-15-2005, 10:03 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
The hardest part was that Neilson was a very likeable guy. But at the end of the day you make a decision on someone you think can put you over the top.

I liked Neilson but I just can't see us winning in 94 with him. This team flopped hard in the 92 playoffs and the 93 season was extremely disappointing.

You hate to see a good guy go, but Keenan was the right coach with the right approach at the right time.
Yeah, but even that was tenuous - we all know the stories about how Messier told him to trust his players. And you yourself admit that you think the Rangers could have won the Cup without having made the deals for with Chicago and Toronto. Looking back, how did that team NOT give in to Ranger tradition?

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09-15-2005, 11:57 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR#9
is it that SBOB and myself appear to be the only ones straightening out all these homers that post such nonsense and it's always the same guys with their anti-NYR nonsense.
JR, I gave up trying a while ago. Idiocy now more or less rules on this board, unfortunately.

And the powers that be are more concerned with not offennnnnnding someone rather than quality of content.

So you are left with some born-in-1993, chip-on-his-boney-shoulder, never-touched-the-ice-in-his-life nimrod badmouthing alltime greats. All with the moderators blessing and near illiteracy.

So, I ask, why bother?

I swear I remember a time when this board was about hockey and not about "hating" this and that and inane threads debating "Who's better? Dale Purinton or Eric Godard"?

Time for a board with with an I.Q. and age threshold. That is, adults with a semblance of a brain and an ounce of common respect.


Last edited by Trottier: 09-16-2005 at 11:37 PM.
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09-16-2005, 12:22 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
Fourth the internet community is depressing. It's very negative and that goes for sports, politics, and hobbies. I can't tell you how fanboards for different subjects resemble more bashing threads than enjoyment.
woah! You've been to the Yankees YES network messageboards haven't you...spot on with the rest of that post too.

JR...I know you can't help yourself and I gotta thank you cause it makes for some entertaining reading. I distinctly remember you taking on the whole NYR Cafe board a few years ago.

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09-16-2005, 08:55 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
I swear I remember a time when this board was about hockey and not about "hating" this and that and inane threads debating "Who's better? Dale Purinton or Eric Godard"?
Purinton, off course. Anyone who says different has clearly not seen a hockey game in their life.

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09-16-2005, 10:37 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
Purinton, off course. Anyone who says different has clearly not seen a hockey game in their life.
Yeah, but he's no Sly Lefebvre!!!!!

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09-16-2005, 10:42 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCProdigy
woah! You've been to the Yankees YES network messageboards haven't you...spot on with the rest of that post too.

JR...I know you can't help yourself and I gotta thank you cause it makes for some entertaining reading. I distinctly remember you taking on the whole NYR Cafe board a few years ago.
I definetely have a confrontaional side to me(bet you guys never knew that!!!! ) but I just can't stand all these no nothing JO's chiming in all the time with all their anti-NYR nonsense and it's always the same clowns doing it and we all know who they are and I just get anjoyment out of calling them on their BS and watching them tuck tail and run when they have nothing intelligent to come back with.

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09-16-2005, 01:48 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATLANTARANGER
The garden payed Patrick Ewing $18M to choke in the finals and they couldn't give Messier his due for delivering a long sought after cup?
The reason you don't pay someone exorbitant amounts of money based on their past is precisely why Messier shouldn't have been given Ewinglike money. You obviously understand that giving Ewing that money hurt the franchise. Would have been the same for the Rangers.

Players are not paid on vapors of their talents. They should be paid on what they can contribute now and in the near future. Messier came here, did a great job, and was paid extremely handsomely for it. The Rangers concern should be with the franchise not in rewarding history. That's an incredibly bad way to run any business.

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09-16-2005, 01:51 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen
The reason you don't pay someone exorbitant amounts of money based on their past is precisely why Messier shouldn't have been given Ewinglike money. You obviously understand that giving Ewing that money hurt the franchise. Would have been the same for the Rangers.

Players are not paid on vapors of their talents. They should be paid on what they can contribute now and in the near future. Messier came here, did a great job, and was paid extremely handsomely for it. The Rangers concern should be with the franchise not in rewarding history. That's an incredibly bad way to run any business.

Ewing's contract hurt the franchise because of the effect it had on the Knicks' cap. It had nothing to do with the money. There was no salary cap in the NHL at the time so any contract that Messier got would not have the impact on the Rangers that the Ewing contract did on the Knicks.

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09-16-2005, 02:40 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway
Ewing's contract hurt the franchise because of the effect it had on the Knicks' cap. It had nothing to do with the money. There was no salary cap in the NHL at the time so any contract that Messier got would not have the impact on the Rangers that the Ewing contract did on the Knicks.
I wasn't referring to the monetary or cap impact on the Rangers. I was talking about keeping a player and rewarding him for something in the past rather than what he can still contribute.

Messier took up a roster spot that was better served by having a kid there. It also forced the idiot Sather (at least in his mind) to play Messier undeserving minutes despite gaffe after gaffe.

It also cast a shadow over the whole franchise where everyone knew that to at least some extent Messier had a say in personnel moves. You have to clean house at the right time or you risk devastating a franchise for years down the road. Messier's being here for the last few years wasn't the main reason that we couldn't go forward, but it may have been the biggest one.

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09-16-2005, 02:49 PM
  #44
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Chosen...

I'm not sure which spot Messier took over a kid, since there weren't very many doing as good as a 41, 42 or 43 year old. And it's unfortunate that there weren't decent kids in the lineup because they would've likely benefitted from playing with Messier. The only time during the regular season that Lundmark's looked like an NHLer was to the left of Messier. Murray looked nice next to Messier. And over the last few years here, while we complained about him, he had such great wingers as Jeff Toms, John Tripp and Jeff Ulmer, among many others. There was so much more wrong with this organization than to point out Messier. And was he here because of the past or because the GM genuinely believed he can contribute? He was #2 in production as a 43 year old on this team. 43 points, +3 vs. Nedved at 31 points and -9. 18 friggin' goals for a 43 year old, 2 of them somehow shorthanded. And again, I'm not sure who's development he blocked last season.

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09-16-2005, 03:35 PM
  #45
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It's not about him blocking a specific kid. It's about a team stuck in a gear that has evolved into self-destructive. Messier's shadow hung over this team, and say all you want about his offensive production but watching almost every game of the last few seasons it was pretty apparent that he gave away far more than he helped.

It's probably the main reason that Holik's career here was so terrible. Messier's being in the lineup in combination with the stupidity of Renney's use of Holik ruined the whole team. If Messier hadn't been there and Holik would have been given the ice time he deserved the team might have made the playoffs. I'm guessing, even though no one would ever dare say it, that there was a lot of resentment about Messier getting the minutes and never being sat despite costly mistake after mistake.

Sure their personnel was putrid, because Sather was running the show, but that is no reason to allow Messier and Sather to continue to bury the whole franchise, but then again Dolan won't fire Sather which probably means that Sather has compromising pics of Dolan.

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09-16-2005, 03:43 PM
  #46
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By the way, I was a big Lundmark supporter but it seems pretty clear now that he has no NHL future whatsoever. Too small to physical it and not enough finesse to compensate.

I believe the same about Garth Murray except that he is a bit stronger than Lundmark and less offensively gifted. Career minor leaguer in my opinion.

Tyutin is a true NHL caliber player. I haven't seen any others here in the last few years, although I haven't seen any of the new crop, but judging by Sather's abysmal career of picking young players I'll be surprised if more than 2 of them make it.

Moore is the only young player I've seen here in the last few years that I thought really got a raw deal. The guy can skate, score, is smart, is physical and seems to have no glaring weaknesses, so naturally he was sent to Hartford while trash skated around MSG.

Now I'll really spin some heads here; I think Malhotra will end up better than almost all of the kids we are waiting for. I wish he was still here. He came on nicely in the last full season and I'm interested to see what happens next with him.

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09-16-2005, 03:47 PM
  #47
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I think Malhotra and Fata will end up better than what we have.

They aren't perfect players but they are both in that 15-20 goal, 30-40 point range.

Murray just has not developed an offensive game and frankly from all reports Lundmark is good as gone if he keeps playing like has so far.

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09-16-2005, 03:48 PM
  #48
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Moore is the only young player I've seen here in the last few years that I thought really got a raw deal. The guy can skate, score, is smart, is physical and seems to have no glaring weaknesses, so naturally he was sent to Hartford while trash skated around MSG.
Moore is an average good but not great AHL'er but is in a weird situation. He really doesn't look like a top 6 forward but he really isn't a bottom 6 either. He's kind of that tweener/bounce around type that might be in and out of the NHL for the next 6 or 7 years but never really catching on.

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09-17-2005, 12:03 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
I'm not sure which spot Messier took over a kid, since there weren't very many doing as good as a 41, 42 or 43 year old. And it's unfortunate that there weren't decent kids in the lineup because they would've likely benefitted from playing with Messier. The only time during the regular season that Lundmark's looked like an NHLer was to the left of Messier. Murray looked nice next to Messier. And over the last few years here, while we complained about him, he had such great wingers as Jeff Toms, John Tripp and Jeff Ulmer, among many others. There was so much more wrong with this organization than to point out Messier. And was he here because of the past or because the GM genuinely believed he can contribute? He was #2 in production as a 43 year old on this team. 43 points, +3 vs. Nedved at 31 points and -9. 18 friggin' goals for a 43 year old, 2 of them somehow shorthanded. And again, I'm not sure who's development he blocked last season.
Malhotra played great with Messier (the other wing on that line was Dvorak) at the end of one season, scored something like 9 points in 10 games. Of course, Manny never played with Messier the next season and then was traded.

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09-19-2005, 01:32 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen
Players are not paid on vapors of their talents. They should be paid on what they can contribute now and in the near future. Messier came here, did a great job, and was paid extremely handsomely for it. The Rangers concern should be with the franchise not in rewarding history. That's an incredibly bad way to run any business.
Yeah but we're not talking about signing a 40 or 41 year old Messier to an exorbitant contract. We're talking about signing a then 35 year old who had just come off seasons of 47g 99pts and 36g 84pts. That doesn't look like somebody who's "on vapors of their talents". While he did slow down in subsequent seasons, I don't believe it would have been a mistake to pay him to stay with the team and reward him with a little extra money (or an extra year) for delivering on his promise.

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