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What's the appeal of moving west?

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08-03-2014, 01:25 PM
  #1
BGIGZ
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What's the appeal of moving west?

I can't quite wrap my mind around this for some reason. Why is there a big push to move teams out west? Sure there is a over saturation of teams in the northeast, but isn't that a good thing? This is a minor league, and it costs a lot to travel. If just a few teams move west, then there will have to be a lot of traveling, which means it will cost more money. Not only that, but I know AHL teams don't like to travel so they can get more practice time in. The distance from NHL team doesn't seem like a problem. Look at the Kings/Monarchs. Two cups and a very affective system. Plenty of teams have folded in the west, I.e. San Fran, Las Vegas. I just see how it could work in the west. Can someone explain it to me?

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08-03-2014, 01:38 PM
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People say it's salary cap that's the reason, but I think it has a lot to do with scouts and executives not wanting to fly across country then get a rental car to drive two hours to scout a potentially 3rd or 4th line player.

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08-03-2014, 03:11 PM
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It's all about brand. Tieing locals into the brand at early ages is the only real benefit

There is no other reason. It's not better for the prospects, salary cap implications are not a competitive issue, and in this day of video I am sure execs have what they need to review available before the get to the office the next day.

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08-03-2014, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BGIGZ View Post
I can't quite wrap my mind around this for some reason. Why is there a big push to move teams out west? Sure there is a over saturation of teams in the northeast, but isn't that a good thing? This is a minor league, and it costs a lot to travel. If just a few teams move west, then there will have to be a lot of traveling, which means it will cost more money. Not only that, but I know AHL teams don't like to travel so they can get more practice time in. The distance from NHL team doesn't seem like a problem. Look at the Kings/Monarchs. Two cups and a very affective system. Plenty of teams have folded in the west, I.e. San Fran, Las Vegas. I just see how it could work in the west. Can someone explain it to me?
It's entirely about the salary cap.

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08-03-2014, 05:30 PM
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It's entirely about the salary cap.
Don't buy that. Cap going up and up with new tv contracts, When tight they can stash somebody in echl (Demers) and a quarter of games are in est. Hutton suiting up in Boston and playing that night in Worcester couldn't happen with ahl west.

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08-03-2014, 05:38 PM
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And why would LA upset their apple cart for cap reasons? They have won the cup twice with a highly productive Minor league team in Manchester. Cap can't be a reason for supporting a move can it?

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08-03-2014, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by dmband View Post
Don't buy that. Cap going up and up with new tv contracts, When tight they can stash somebody in echl (Demers) and a quarter of games are in est. Hutton suiting up in Boston and playing that night in Worcester couldn't happen with ahl west.
You don't have to buy it, but it's the truth. The western teams feel the eastern teams have a cap advantage because their recalls can be done at any point in the day vs the day before that's required on a cross country trip to the west coast. And it isn't just the delusional simple-minds running San Jose who think that, but every NHL west coast team.

Players not on entry level deals can refuse assignments to the ECHL, so unless the player agrees (and they usually have to be "bribed" to do so, which could raise other potential cap issues) it's cross country flights in both directions a la Jamie McGinn.

And you're right the Hutton situation wouldn't have happened if San Jose's farm team was out west...it would have meant having another goaltender go play for the AHL affiliate.

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08-03-2014, 06:54 PM
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You would know better than me but
1 why would a player a refuse a echl assignment knowing it was a cap issue only and he is coning back to nhl clubmomentarily?
2 in the Hutton scenario, the NHL team not Worcester would have had to sign a goalie for the NHL game. Huttonwould have been in cal. Or on a flight to Texas or somewhere and Colman or gill would have been signed to open the NHL door

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08-03-2014, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by dmband View Post
You would know better than me but
1 why would a player a refuse a echl assignment knowing it was a cap issue only and he is coning back to nhl clubmomentarily?
2 in the Hutton scenario, the NHL team not Worcester would have had to sign a goalie for the NHL game. Huttonwould have been in cal. Or on a flight to Texas or somewhere and Colman or gill would have been signed to open the NHL door
1) The NHLPA frowns upon its members accepting assignment to the ECHL. Rumor is Pelech accepted his assignment to SF this season because he was paid his NHL salary while he was there. I asked John McCarthy what SJ gave him because he was on a one way deal and would be getting his NHL money no matter what and he politely refused to answer.

2) In the Hutton case he would have been in Boston. He would have flown out of wherever the SJ affiliate would have been playing Friday after the game (that was the night Stalock got hurt) and been on the bench for Saturday's game.

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08-03-2014, 07:20 PM
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Ok one last question before I watch my loser football team play.

Why does la support a west coast move?

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08-03-2014, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by dmband View Post
Ok one last question before I watch my loser football team play.

Why does la support a west coast move?
No idea, and I agree it seems to make little sense for them as things have worked out. You'd think they'd like the status quo, wouldn't you?

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08-04-2014, 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by dmband View Post
Don't buy that. Cap going up and up with new tv contracts, When tight they can stash somebody in echl (Demers) and a quarter of games are in est. Hutton suiting up in Boston and playing that night in Worcester couldn't happen with ahl west.
The NHL cannot stash players in the lower leagues anymore. If a player is on a 1 way and make 750k and they get assigned t the ECHL or the AHL, the portion of the pay over the AHL/ECHL amount still counts towards the cap.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dmband View Post
You would know better than me but
1 why would a player a refuse a echl assignment knowing it was a cap issue only and he is coming back to nhl club momentarily?
2 in the Hutton scenario, the NHL team not Worcester would have had to sign a goalie for the NHL game. Hutton would have been in cal. Or on a flight to Texas or somewhere and Colman or gill would have been signed to open the NHL door
Players cannot trust the NHL teams at all. En Smith was sent to Rockford a couple of years ago and not called back up though he was promised he was going to be recalled.

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08-04-2014, 02:29 PM
  #13
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Originally Posted by Tommy Hawk View Post
The NHL cannot stash players in the lower leagues anymore. If a player is on a 1 way and make 750k and they get assigned t the ECHL or the AHL, the portion of the pay over the AHL/ECHL amount still counts towards the cap.
When a player on a one-way deal is assigned to the minors you subtract $900,000 from the player's NHL salary and the remainder is counted against the assigning team's salary cap.

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08-04-2014, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by 210 View Post
When a player on a one-way deal is assigned to the minors you subtract $900,000 from the player's NHL salary and the remainder is counted against the assigning team's salary cap.

Actually, it depends.

All Player Salary and Bonuses earned in a League Year by a Player who is in the second or later year of a multi-year SPC which was signed when the Player was age 35 or older (as of June 30 prior to the League Year in which the SPC is to be effective), but which Player is not on the Club's Active Roster, Injured Reserve, Injured Non-Roster or Non-Roster, and regardless of whether, or where, the
Player is playing, except to the extent the Player is playing under his SPC in the minor leagues, in which case only the Player Salary and Bonuses in excess of $100,000 shall count towards the calculation of Averaged Club Salary;

SPC which was signed when the Player was age 35 or older (as of June 30 prior to the League Year in which the SPC is to be effective), but which Player is not on the Club's Active Roster, Injured Reserve, Injured Non-Roster or Non-Roster, and regardless of whether, or where, the Player is playing, except to the extent the Player is playing under his SPC in the minor leagues, in which case only the Player Salary and Bonuses in excess of $100,000 shall count towards the calculation of Averaged Club Salary;

All this starts about page 280 in the CBA and can give you a headache. There are also clauses about how the bonuses tie in, minimum AHL salary, etc.

Basically, no more hiding salaries in the lower leagues.

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08-04-2014, 06:42 PM
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http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=413185

Quote:
But there's a provision in the new CBA that doesn't allow the hiding of NHL contracts in the minors, save the first $900,000.

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08-04-2014, 06:53 PM
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Tommy Hawk
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Originally Posted by 210 View Post
They basically cleansed it. If the player is 35 or older it is a different calculation as I posted. It also depends on bonuses as well even if they get bonuses or not. THe basic point is the salary does not come off the books if the player is in another professional league.

From pg 285 of the CBA:

Illustration #3: In the 2012-13 League Year, if a non-Entry Level Player with a Two-Way, One-Year SPC with Paragraph 1 NHL Salary of $600,000, Paragraph 1 Minor League Salary of $60,000, minimum compensation guarantee of $100,000 and earnable (non-Exhibit 5) Performance Bonuses of $2,850,000 (Averaged Amount = $3,450,000) is Loaned to a Club's AHL affiliate, such Club shall receive a charge to its Averaged Club Salary of $2,050,000, calculated daily, for as long as such Player is on Loan.

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08-05-2014, 05:13 AM
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I knew I should have just gone to Capgeek.

$900K was the amount last season, and it goes up as the NHL minimum goes up. They have it broken down nicely: http://www.capgeek.com/faq/new-cba

Quote:
BURIED CONTRACTS (Wade Redden Rule)

Money paid to players outside of the NHL counts against the cap.

A one-way contract counts against the cap as follows:
cap hit [ minimum salary + $375,000 ]

Example: If Player A with cap hit $6.5M plays in the minors in 2013-14, he counts as follows.
$6.5M [ $550,000 + $375,000 ] = $5.575M

A two-way contract counts as follows:
minor-league salary [ minimum salary + $375,000 ]

Example: Player Bs two-way contract pays $3M

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08-05-2014, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by 210 View Post
I knew I should have just gone to Capgeek.

$900K was the amount last season, and it goes up as the NHL minimum goes up. They have it broken down nicely: http://www.capgeek.com/faq/new-cba
Cap geek is not the actual CBA, which is where I pulled the information. The type of contract, bonuses, age of player all come into play. IT is not a flat 900k for each player.

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08-05-2014, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Tommy Hawk View Post
Cap geek is not the actual CBA, which is where I pulled the information. The type of contract, bonuses, age of player all come into play. IT is not a flat 900k for each player.
Notice Capgeek uses the term "cap hit" and not "salary"? It figures all that stuff into the formula already.

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08-05-2014, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by 210 View Post
Notice Capgeek uses the term "cap hit" and not "salary"? It figures all that stuff into the formula already.
No he doesn't. He gave you ONE example and I gave the example in the CBA. If the player is on an over 35 deal, completely different calculation. If the player is on a 2-way bonuses and other items still get calculated in the cap hit.

Read Article 50 of the current CBA.

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08-05-2014, 07:32 PM
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Yes, he does. Here, I'll post it again so you can read it:

cap hit [ minimum salary + $375,000 ]

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08-09-2014, 12:15 PM
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Appeal of moving West

The appeal of moving west is the savings on cap hit, quicker call-ups, and easier access to NHL coaching staff/scouts. It's not perfect, because it'll fail unless they get enough teams to do it, but if it's 5 as has been reported, the AHL can do a very division-heavy schedule to minimize travel. Right now the ECHL West does similar, so there'd be little change for Western fans in terms of "not seeing enough teams".

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08-10-2014, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 210 View Post
Yes, he does. Here, I'll post it again so you can read it:

cap hit – [ minimum salary + $375,000 ]
So I guess you were actually too lazy to read the agreement because you completely skipped this section:

All Player Salary and Bonuses earned in a League Year by a Player who is in the second or later year of a multi-year (as of June 30 prior to the League Year in which the SPC is to be effective), but which Player is not on the Club's Active Roster, Injured Reserve, Injured Non-Roster or Non-Roster, and regardless of whether, or where, the Player is playing, except to the extent the Player is playing under his SPC in the minor leagues, in which case only the Player Salary and Bonuses in excess of $100,000 shall count towards the calculation of Averaged Club Salary;


And I guess you also decided to completely ignore this section:

For any Player on a Two-Way NHL SPC who is Loaned to a club in another professional league, the total compensation (defined for the purpose of this provision only as the greater of (i) that Player's stated Paragraph 1 Minor League Salary and Bonuses (other than Exhibit 5 Bonuses unless earned)) in that League Year, and (ii) that Player's minimum compensation guarantee and Bonuses (other than Exhibit 5 Bonuses unless earned) in that League Year in excess of the sum of the Minimum Paragraph 1 NHL Salary and $375,000 for that League Year (e.g., $925,000 in 2013-14) for the period during which such Player is Loaned to a club in such professional league

And decided to only use the section that its between those two which is:

For any Player on a One-Way NHL SPC who is Loaned to a club in another professional league, the Averaged Amount of such SPC less the sum of the Minimum Paragraph 1 NHL Salary and $375,000 for that League Year (e.g., $900,000 in 2012-13) for the period during which such Player is Loaned to such professional league;

He keeps it simple for those people that cannot comprehend an entire agreement. If the player doesn't earn 900k then there is no hit, you do not get a negative hit. If the player is on an over 35 and has a hit of 4 mil, the team has to absorb a hit of $3.9 mil.

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08-11-2014, 07:52 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmband View Post
It's all about brand. Tieing locals into the brand at early ages is the only real benefit
I don't think it's the only benefit, but I agree that marketing/branding plays a huge role in all of this. While the hockey side of operations is all about developing talent and winning cups, at the end of the day its a business, which means generating revenue.

By way of an example, let's take a look at Dallas. They just bought their AHL affiliate that plays outside Austin, and if the rumblings over a CHL-ECHL merger are true they would have their AA affiliate in the Dallas suburb of Allen. While having it's top two levels of development close by is helpful logistically, the more powerful impact is going to be on building hockey (Stars hockey) in Texas. Let's face it, NHL games are expensive, and if you aren't a big hockey fan (or have a big family) it may be unrealistic to lay down the money to see an NHL game. But an AHL or ECHL game can be many times cheaper...suddenly your farm teams aren't just developing players...they are developing fans.


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08-13-2014, 07:30 AM
  #25
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Texas stars will be fine. The questions I have is how are the California ahl teams going to survive long term. First couple of years will be a novelty. These team will have rents to pay and a expensive travel to pay for. How many fans will they need to average and at what ticket price?? I looked up the Ontario reign and those tickets are pricy for echl hockey. And Bakersfield and Stockton will both need to boost attendance to survive the ahl expenses. It will be interesting for sure!!!!

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