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Old
08-06-2014, 06:21 PM
  #326
Mr Sakich
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
In this and your previous post you are suggesting that an NHL team would take system advice on such things as zone entry methods from someone we don't even know has played the game (maybe he has, its never been evident).

OMG if a pro team at the highest level of hockey were actually to take system advice, i.e. coaching advice, from somebody that knows the game through a calculator and slide rule..

heres another thought. Perhaps successful teams systems and faceoff sets work because they are successful teams with great players. A lot of chicken and egg in this.

lmfao if the Oilers, Dellow, or anybody thinks such adjustments can turn a team of floaters that pay poor attention to whats going on out on the ice into a competitive side.



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Old
08-06-2014, 06:23 PM
  #327
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I fall into a category of fandom that does not really pay attention to stats, advanced or general. Probably because I'm a bit older than some of you.

But it would be remiss of me to totally disregard the impact that stats guys have had over the years on hockey that is watched today.

Although I'm not keen on how the analytics work, I'm certain that many of these types of stats can give you a pretty clear picture of where a player or team is headed in the future.

Hope this voodoo mumbo jumbo works out for the Oilers. Otherwise I'll have to resort to hanging chickens and garlic on my front porch. Possibly some human bones as well, for effect.

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Old
08-06-2014, 06:24 PM
  #328
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yup, great article by Friedman. He's become one of the best in the business forsure.

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08-06-2014, 06:27 PM
  #329
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I'm saying a team composed of a group of players that are very coachable, and that have effective coaching, will be able to utilize information with much more efficacy.


Pay attention to Eakins own excuses for last year. He's on actual record stating the swarm didn't work because the Oiler players didn't have the simple requisite knowledge of D zone coverages. That they weren't adept at even covering passing lanes. Something he claimed he found out later and was surprised about.

Is it really a stretch for me to suggest the Oilers are not an ideal team to be hearing more conceptual schemes?

They barely pay attention to the ones being offered.

Now I'll use a football analogy. When an astute headcoach realizes his team is not properly up on the playbook and not executing on the field the amount of input and plays is REDUCED until the team can adhere and apply the key schemes first and foremost and build from there each week.
Eakins also abandoned the swarm and said he was going back to basics, essentially, yet the team still sucked. So the basics he was teaching weren't particularly effective and now he's spending time with head coaches and taking advice from systems analysts. So maybe he's re-evaluating what basics are fundamental and what he thinks he can get the players to buy into, and build from there?

Again, this is all wildly hypothetical. However, Eakins' primary qualms were with the d-zone (and incidentally, the Oilers o-zone play dropped significantly under him, but that's another matter) and things didn't get better, so maybe he's focusing on some o-zone fundamentals, like zone entries. Maybe something relating to the offensive game resonates more with some key Oilers like Hall and Yakupov and generates Eakins' some buy-in from there.

Unlikely? Probably. However, it's arguably just as reasonable to suggest this as suggesting there's going to be an entirely new system that is far too complicated to handle dropped on the players overnight.

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Old
08-06-2014, 06:30 PM
  #330
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I don't have any issues with you suggesting that we don't have the players capable to win. However, that's MacT's job and doesn't really relate to the discussion at hand. Your statement, which maybe I'm misinterpreting, is basically that since the players on the team aren't particularly good, there's no sense taking any beneficial measures until the team is good enough. It's kind of like saying "I want to build a house 3 years from now" but deciding there's no point in learning how to use a hammer or saw right now because you don't need the house for 3 years.
Using your analogy I'm suggesting that throwing extra hammers and nailguns at homebuilders that don't have a clue how to frame yet is not going to result in more, or better houses being built..

I've explained it already in my previous post.

The Oilers, a confused team when last seen, are guilty of not even playing basic fundamental hockey and as noted by coach they didn't have much of a clue about basic own zone coverage.

I'm suggesting that such a team take intensive remedial work first and foremost and that the advanced stuff may be more helpful later on at such time that basics are known and applied. Going too fast with competing suggestions, schemes, new systems is where imo Eakins went wrong last year. he should have zoned in on fundamentals.

I have more faith in Ben Scrivens coaching than I do of Dallas Eakins however.


Last edited by Replacement: 08-06-2014 at 06:39 PM.
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Old
08-06-2014, 06:31 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Using your analogy I'm suggesting that throwing extra hammers and nailguns at homebuilders that don't have a clue how to frame yet is not going to result in more, or better houses being built..

I've explained it already in my previous post.

The Oilers, a confused team when last seen, are guilty of not even playing basic fundamental hockey and as noted by coach they didn't have much of a clue about basic own zone coverage.

I'm suggesting that such a team take intensive remedial work first and foremost and that the advanced stuff may be more helpful later on at such time that basics are known and applied. Going to fast with competing suggestions, schemes, new systems is where imo Eakins went wrong last year. he should have zoned in on fundamentals.

I have more faith in Ben Scrivens coaching than I do of Dallas Eakins however.
Well if there's one thing we can agree on, it's that Dallas Eakins was a terrible coach last year.

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08-06-2014, 06:34 PM
  #332
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Eakins also abandoned the swarm and said he was going back to basics, essentially, yet the team still sucked. So the basics he was teaching weren't particularly effective and now he's spending time with head coaches and taking advice from systems analysts. So maybe he's re-evaluating what basics are fundamental and what he thinks he can get the players to buy into, and build from there?

Again, this is all wildly hypothetical. However, Eakins' primary qualms were with the d-zone (and incidentally, the Oilers o-zone play dropped significantly under him, but that's another matter) and things didn't get better, so maybe he's focusing on some o-zone fundamentals, like zone entries. Maybe something relating to the offensive game resonates more with some key Oilers like Hall and Yakupov and generates Eakins' some buy-in from there.

Unlikely? Probably. However, it's arguably just as reasonable to suggest this as suggesting there's going to be an entirely new system that is far too complicated to handle dropped on the players overnight.
Thanks for the discussion, we're not entirely far apart. I can only hope you are correct.

IMO we should both be concerned that we have a headcoach who openly and obviously struggled to get his club to play basic fundamentals of hockey.

tbh I think Eakins is grasping at straws and that this learning on the job stuff and getting ample assistance isn't going to be enough.

What we need is a viable seasoned NHL headcoach and this being the worst time for an apprentice to be running things.

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08-06-2014, 06:36 PM
  #333
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Thanks for the discussion, we're not entirely far apart. I can only hope you are correct.

IMO we should both be concerned that we have a headcoach who openly and obviously struggled to get his club to play basic fundamentals of hockey.

tbh I think Eakins is grasping at straws and that this learning on the job stuff and getting ample assistance isn't going to be enough.

What we need is a viable seasoned NHL headcoach and this being the worst time for an apprentice to be running things.
Can't argue with any of those points. Though I will admit that from my perspective, it's encouraging to see that he's taking advice from outside sources, seeing as he was a disaster using his own tactics and he doesn't seem to be going anywhere anytime soon.

I'd rather have a **** coach who goes, okay, things didn't work, than one stubbornly refuses to consider new ideas despite evidence what he's doing isn't working.

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08-06-2014, 06:39 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Using your analogy I'm suggesting that throwing extra hammers and nailguns at homebuilders that don't have a clue how to frame yet is not going to result in more, or better houses being built..

I've explained it already in my previous post.

The Oilers, a confused team when last seen, are guilty of not even playing basic fundamental hockey and as noted by coach they didn't have much of a clue about basic own zone coverage.

I'm suggesting that such a team take intensive remedial work first and foremost and that the advanced stuff may be more helpful later on at such time that basics are known and applied. Going to fast with competing suggestions, schemes, new systems is where imo Eakins went wrong last year. he should have zoned in on fundamentals.

I have more faith in Ben Scrivens coaching than I do of Dallas Eakins however.
So are you saying they should use a screw driver instead of a hammer?

Just wondering.

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Old
08-06-2014, 06:41 PM
  #335
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So are you saying they should use a screw driver instead of a hammer?

Just wondering.
I'm saying this could be dangerous and don't try this at home..


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08-06-2014, 07:01 PM
  #337
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This tells me what?
That analytics are working, when you claim youve never seen evidence of them working. Im not really sure what evidence people want of analytics working. A coach wont come out and say, analytics are working, here is our secrets of how how we use them.

If they didnt work, teams would cut these departments

The best teams are using analytics and attributing success to them and the the best teams/GMs (and numerous other) are aggressively expanding analytics departments. The biggest hockey market in the world just signed the most analytic intensive OHL GMs in the league (Dubas), Shanahan appears to be forward thinking and pushed big for the hiring. Tallon, the man who created the modern day Hawks and assembled a large portion of the team, was the other rumoured GM going hard after Dubas.

Ive seen and heard numerous top GMs embrace analytics. The only opposition to analytics Ive heard is from Burke and Nonis. I know which side I want to be on

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Old
08-06-2014, 07:10 PM
  #338
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This tells me what?
When you draft best, develop best, trade best, coach best, and play best, and you use analytics, analytics also gets a Stanley Cup ring. It's true.

We can also infer that poorer performing teams have not used analytics, in the same way that skinny people do not eat.

I'm not sure what more proof you could want. Correlation is causation.

There's an excellent documentary out there called The Corsi Can Brothers. It details the early development of this phenomenon.

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08-06-2014, 07:22 PM
  #339
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When you draft best, develop best, trade best, coach best, and play best, and you use analytics, analytics also gets a Stanley Cup ring. It's true.

We can also infer that poorer performing teams have not used analytics, in the same way that skinny people do not eat.

I'm not sure what more proof you could want. Correlation is causation.

There's an excellent documentary out there called The Corsi Can Brothers. It details the early development of this phenomenon.
This is an attempted jab, but why arent the Capitals, Rangers, Lightning, Flyers elite teams like the Blues, Sharks, Pitt, Chicago? All have elite level talent, a difference appears to be the latter use analytics, while the former dont. Ofcourse, there is other circumstances, but when 4/5 top teams are big into it, it should signal something

Why do you think they are able to draft the best? Sharks use Corsi to evaluate junior players according to scout Brian Gross

Why do you think they are able to sign and trade for the best? hint: its identifying underrated players through analytics

The Blues and Hawks use analytics heavily in coaching, they get analytic information each period to help the coachs out with match ups decisions

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08-06-2014, 07:30 PM
  #340
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This is an attempted jab, but why arent the Capitals, Rangers, Lightning, Flyers elite teams like the Blues, Sharks, Pitt, Chicago? All have elite level talent, a difference appears to be the latter use analytics, while the former dont. Ofcourse, there is other circumstances, but when 4/5 top teams are big into it, it should signal something

Why do you think they are able to draft the best? Sharks use Corsi to evaluate junior players according to scout Brian Gross

Why do you think they are able to sign and trade for the best? hint: its identifying underrated players through analytics

The Blues and Hawks use analytics heavily in coaching, they get analytic information each period to help the coachs out with match ups decisions
Nah, just having fun.

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08-06-2014, 08:08 PM
  #341
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That analytics are working, when you claim youve never seen evidence of them working. Im not really sure what evidence people want of analytics working. A coach wont come out and say, analytics are working, here is our secrets of how how we use them.

If they didnt work, teams would cut these departments

The best teams are using analytics and attributing success to them and the the best teams/GMs (and numerous other) are aggressively expanding analytics departments. The biggest hockey market in the world just signed the most analytic intensive OHL GMs in the league (Dubas), Shanahan appears to be forward thinking and pushed big for the hiring. Tallon, the man who created the modern day Hawks and assembled a large portion of the team, was the other rumoured GM going hard after Dubas.

Ive seen and heard numerous top GMs embrace analytics. The only opposition to analytics Ive heard is from Burke and Nonis. I know which side I want to be on
When have I ever said they arent working?????

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08-06-2014, 08:15 PM
  #342
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When have I ever said they arent working?????
You said they haven't been "proven."

So what do they need to prove, exactly?

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08-06-2014, 08:16 PM
  #343
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In this and your previous post you are suggesting that an NHL team would take system advice on such things as zone entry methods from someone we don't even know has played the game (maybe he has, its never been evident).

OMG if a pro team at the highest level of hockey were actually to take system advice, i.e. coaching advice, from somebody that knows the game through a calculator and slide rule.
And why would someone need to have played the game to analyze systems? They aren't the ones executing them?

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08-06-2014, 08:19 PM
  #344
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You said they haven't been "proven."

So what do they need to prove, exactly?
They are in the very early stages, even the people that have made them (team reps, bloggers, etc) Many have said the same thing.

Why you arguing like they have been proven? Corsi has went from a player stat to more of a team stat this year. You think corsi is proven?

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08-06-2014, 08:20 PM
  #345
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And why would someone need to have played the game to analyze systems? They aren't the ones executing them?
FTR Tyler has played some hockey, was it junior or pro? No but he has played hockey.

Just so you know

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08-06-2014, 08:27 PM
  #346
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FTR Tyler has played some hockey, was it junior or pro? No but he has played hockey.

Just so you know
I can confirm this

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08-06-2014, 09:23 PM
  #347
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I wonder if he actually has to watch games now?

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08-06-2014, 09:23 PM
  #348
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Using your analogy I'm suggesting that throwing extra hammers and nailguns at homebuilders that don't have a clue how to frame yet is not going to result in more, or better houses being built..

I've explained it already in my previous post.

The Oilers, a confused team when last seen, are guilty of not even playing basic fundamental hockey and as noted by coach they didn't have much of a clue about basic own zone coverage.

I'm suggesting that such a team take intensive remedial work first and foremost and that the advanced stuff may be more helpful later on at such time that basics are known and applied. Going too fast with competing suggestions, schemes, new systems is where imo Eakins went wrong last year. he should have zoned in on fundamentals.

I have more faith in Ben Scrivens coaching than I do of Dallas Eakins however.
Suprise suprise...this got turned into an anti-Eakins thread too...

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08-06-2014, 09:25 PM
  #349
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I wonder if he actually has to watch games now?
He's probaly watched more oilers than half the people on here combined

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Old
08-06-2014, 09:34 PM
  #350
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He's probaly watched more oilers than half the people on here combined
He actually rewatched offensive zone face off wins involving Gagner and RNH to see why the Oilers where generating less shots off them. But yeah of course he only looks at numbers.

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