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Old
08-15-2014, 04:55 PM
  #126
Tw0Shoes
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Originally Posted by Alex87 View Post
This is not true, or at least, not across the board.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/ho...ey-teams-make/
I don't think the other teams are doing this: "And in the interest of fair math, the extra money Kitchener earned during the post-season was given away to community programs and charities"

Nor does it say where the 6.4 million goes, if a lot of it goes to the facilities rentals and the franchise owner owns the rink, then I'd still call the team a cash cow. There's a reason that they're not very forward with their financials. And no one is going to operate a WHL franchise at a loss for a number of years for no reason.

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08-15-2014, 05:26 PM
  #127
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That's not true at all. The players get all of their expenses paid, plus an allowance, plus access to world-class training facilities, specialized schooling, guaranteed scholarships on a year-for-a-year basis, plus free room and board (billeting families compensated via free season tickets), etc., etc.

Ticket prices are cheap, attendance is often into the low 2000's on weeknights, the team lets STHers reuse unused tickets, they have food specials, giveaways, kids carnivals every Sunday, no tv sponsorship deals, etc., etc.

They donate a lot of money and time to local sports, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Oil Kings are a break-even organization that carries a balance forward to protect against future financial downturn.

It's not a cash cow here. It sure as hell isn't one in Prince Albert, population 30,000. It's probably more a labour of love from local sponsors that keeps the team afloat there.
I don't believe they are as 'break even' as you think. There's a reason the jr players need to create a union (and I hate unions)

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08-15-2014, 06:27 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Tw0Shoes View Post
I don't think the other teams are doing this: "And in the interest of fair math, the extra money Kitchener earned during the post-season was given away to community programs and charities"

Nor does it say where the 6.4 million goes, if a lot of it goes to the facilities rentals and the franchise owner owns the rink, then I'd still call the team a cash cow. There's a reason that they're not very forward with their financials. And no one is going to operate a WHL franchise at a loss for a number of years for no reason.
A couple things:

1. Give the article another read. It mentioned that Kitchener was set up as a not-for-profit, meaning their financials are actually at least semi-public (that's why the data they have in that article is so accurate) and get audited. So you would know if the money was being "laundered" so to speak back into other areas of the owner's business.

2. And if the owners don't own the rink (I think owning is pretty rare in junior hockey, but correct me if I'm wrong) the opposite argument could be true, that these junior teams actually support jobs in a community (e.g. through facility rentals, concessions, etc.) A minor point that's pretty irrelevant, but I thought I'd respond to it.

3. My point was just to show that "CHL teams are making money hand over fist" isn't really a fair statement. We have a team like Kitchener on one hand, and the other example was Lethbridge, which was actually going broke. So it's unreasonable to say or allude that the CHL is a cash cow that's unfairly exploiting its players.

This comment isn't meant to be snarky, but rather just to point out some things you may have missed.

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08-16-2014, 08:48 AM
  #129
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I don't believe they are as 'break even' as you think. There's a reason the jr players need to create a union (and I hate unions)
You've just read an article detailing the audited finances of a publically owned team that has been for years one of the most successful franchises in the CHL. They play in a community where hockey is huge, have a newly renovated arena and they are the by far the biggest sporting entity in town. Yet they barely turned a profit. So based on this can you explain why you feel a CHL team is a cash cow?

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08-16-2014, 09:44 AM
  #130
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You've just read an article detailing the audited finances of a publically owned team that has been for years one of the most successful franchises in the CHL. They play in a community where hockey is huge, have a newly renovated arena and they are the by far the biggest sporting entity in town. Yet they barely turned a profit. So based on this can you explain why you feel a CHL team is a cash cow?

From the article:

"The fact all the other CHL teams are owned by individuals or small groups in a traditional structure means that information about finances is not well-known. "

You believe what you want, and I guess I'll believe what I want. I'll side with the Jr players who get treated like cattle.

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08-16-2014, 10:35 AM
  #131
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I don't believe they are as 'break even' as you think. There's a reason the jr players need to create a union (and I hate unions)
If you see how the Oil Kings operate (facility, coaching, etc), and then compare it to how other teams, not owned by a multi-million dollar company are operated, it is quite apparent that the Oil Kings are not intended to "break even", as it is obviously seen as a part of the Oilers prospect training system.

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08-16-2014, 12:40 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by doulos View Post
From the article:

"The fact all the other CHL teams are owned by individuals or small groups in a traditional structure means that information about finances is not well-known. "

You believe what you want, and I guess I'll believe what I want. I'll side with the Jr players who get treated like cattle.
Their finances are not well known but what you have is an audited account of what one of the "big money" CHL teams makes to compare them with. The Aud can handlle just under 8000 people and it is often full. I think I am on fairly firm ground in assuming that the Prince George Cougars are going to have a bit of a tougher time making money than the Rangers would. How about Prince Albert with its 2800 seat arena. Do you think the Raiders can match the Rangers revenue stream given that KW also has a population of 550K and Prince Albert has a population of about 35K?

I have no doubt that there are teams like London and Portland that do make a lot. I bet the Oil Kings do quite well revenue-wise, but they also spend a lot. But these teams are the equivalents of the Leafs and Canadiens as far as the CHL is concerned. Unlike the NHL there is no model for revenue sharing in the CHL so while the most successful team might be able to manage things you have a real danger of killing a lot of franchises if you increase the expenses significantly.


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08-16-2014, 01:28 PM
  #133
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Their finances are not well known but what you have is an audited account of what one of the "big money" CHL teams makes to compare them with. The Aud can handlle just under 8000 people and it is often full. I think I am on fairly firm ground in assuming that the Prince George Cougars are going to have a bit of a tougher time making money than the Rangers would. How about Prince Albert with its 2800 seat arena. Do you think the Raiders can match the Rangers revenue stream given that KW also has a population of 550K and Prince Albert has a population of about 35K?

I have no doubt that there are teams like London and Portland that do make a lot. I bet the Oil Kings do quite well revenue-wise, but they also spend a lot. But these teams are the equivalents of the Leafs and Canadiens as far as the CHL is concerned. Unlike the NHL there is no model for revenue sharing in the CHL so while the most successful team might be able to manage things you have a real danger of killing a lot of franchises if you increase the expenses significantly.
Okay, I can get on board with the idea that there are some teams that don't do as well (and maybe even a couple that lose money). I guess I am very skeptical when I hear accounts, from the players themselves, of what they actually get paid, and how they are treated.

I get it that these kids are doing what they love to do, but they also become basically property of these teams and get treated accordingly in many cases. It's pretty poor how they are handled in many cases.

At the end of the day I suppose I can see why Leon would far rather be done with the CHL and go to a league that will treat him much better.

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08-18-2014, 09:39 PM
  #134
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Okay, I can get on board with the idea that there are some teams that don't do as well (and maybe even a couple that lose money). I guess I am very skeptical when I hear accounts, from the players themselves, of what they actually get paid, and how they are treated.

I get it that these kids are doing what they love to do, but they also become basically property of these teams and get treated accordingly in many cases. It's pretty poor how they are handled in many cases.

At the end of the day I suppose I can see why Leon would far rather be done with the CHL and go to a league that will treat him much better.
They are kids!

"In my day"... when you were 17 you worked at McDonalds and saved your money for college because your big opportunity to plan for your future required to you to SPEND and INVEST in it.

You coulda been the top student in your district, you were still gonna spend a good amount on your education to fulfill your potential and talent.

These kids are talented too... they have a chance to make it big (bigger than most smart chemistry students and as big as the most talented high-school drama prodigy)... and they have to invest very little risk in making it happen.

I don't see the exploitation (at least any different than any talented kid getting paid peanuts and performing above their paygrade... which the economy has been built on in many industries since the dawn of time).

... and I agree with Fourier... if the KW audited accounts don't show a cash cow, then the cash cow is few and far between. KW is a fairly affluent community, can't see too many junior teams doing much better, other than the very few in the major metros.

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08-18-2014, 10:16 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by doulos View Post
Okay, I can get on board with the idea that there are some teams that don't do as well (and maybe even a couple that lose money). I guess I am very skeptical when I hear accounts, from the players themselves, of what they actually get paid, and how they are treated.

I get it that these kids are doing what they love to do, but they also become basically property of these teams and get treated accordingly in many cases. It's pretty poor how they are handled in many cases.

At the end of the day I suppose I can see why Leon would far rather be done with the CHL and go to a league that will treat him much better.
Yet when you talk to someone who played major junior they usually claim it as the best time of their lives. Least the few i know.

i personally dont believe the players are hard done by in any means.

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08-19-2014, 07:31 AM
  #136
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You know when unions are necessary? When you might die at work because of undue risk and bad work conditions.

If there is talk of players unions and the kids dont want to play hockey. Show them the door, shut the whole system down. Their back yard rinks should be good enough to train them for their dream.

Should reformat the CHL into a service...players have to pay 20k to play. Then they are actually purchasing the service of free coaching, visibility etc. The league is doing the kids a favor

Maybe just close up all tournaments, close all teams.

Whiners.


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08-19-2014, 08:43 AM
  #137
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You know when unions are necessary? When you might die at work because of undue risk and bad work conditions.

If there is talk of players unions and the kids dont want to play hockey. Show them the door, shut the whole system down. Their back yard rinks should be good enough to train them for their dream.

Should reformat the CHL into a service...players have to pay 20k to play. Then they are actually purchasing the service of free coaching, visibility etc. The league is doing the kids a favor

Maybe just close up all tournaments, close all teams.

Whiners.
Unions are "necessary" in any industry where the "owners" can unfairly take advantage of the "workers" (Or Players), see the NCAA. Not sure why you have a tough time with this.

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08-19-2014, 08:55 AM
  #138
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Let's just agree that each of us have varying opinions on the CHL and their treatment of Jr players and leave it at that.

This is about Leon and I hope wherever he ends up he rips it up. It's likely to be Edmonton anyways

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08-19-2014, 09:03 AM
  #139
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I don't think junior hockey players should be paid, I think the opportunity to play in the best development league in the world and most heavily scouted league is payment enough.

At the same time teams shouldn't be making a pile of money off these kids. Any excess money made in the CHL should be put into a fund for Hockey Canada to continue to make improvements to it's program and to help get more kids involved in minor hockey. So many kids are missing out on playing hockey because of the high cost, imagine how many naturally talented kids the game is missing out on because their parents can't afford it.

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08-19-2014, 09:24 AM
  #140
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I don't think junior hockey players should be paid, I think the opportunity to play in the best development league in the world and most heavily scouted league is payment enough.

At the same time teams shouldn't be making a pile of money off these kids. Any excess money made in the CHL should be put into a fund for Hockey Canada to continue to make improvements to it's program and to help get more kids involved in minor hockey. So many kids are missing out on playing hockey because of the high cost, imagine how many naturally talented kids the game is missing out on because their parents can't afford it.
There would be no league if they did things this way. You aren't going to find 60 owners that are in it to just break even, but potentially lose money.

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08-19-2014, 10:47 AM
  #141
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08-19-2014, 10:58 AM
  #142
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Just saved the thread.

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08-19-2014, 11:28 AM
  #143
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Unions are "necessary" in any industry where the "owners" can unfairly take advantage of the "workers" (Or Players), see the NCAA. Not sure why you have a tough time with this.
I don't necessarily disagree with you JJ, but you're comparing apples to oranges. The NCAA made in the hundreds of millions of dollars off licensing software/apparel/you-name-it with players' names/likenesses which were sometimes 'unofficially' altered; this is how the 'O'Bannon' lawsuit started. The CHL makes money, but comparing the WHL to the NCAA is like comparing the ECHL's revenues to the NHL's revenues - as an (admittedly weak) example, EA Sports has never had a 'WHL Hockey' video game with a player who looked like RNH, had the same number as RNH, had the same height/weight as RNH and played for the same team as RNH.

I don't want to agree with the crowd that thinks the CHL's version of indentured servitude in order for a chance to 'fulfill the dream' makes it all worth it; however, I find it difficult to compare the level of exploitation existent in the NCAA to the CHL.

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08-19-2014, 11:41 AM
  #144
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I don't necessarily disagree with you JJ, but you're comparing apples to oranges. The NCAA made in the hundreds of millions of dollars off licensing software/apparel/you-name-it with players' names/likenesses which were sometimes 'unofficially' altered; this is how the 'O'Bannon' lawsuit started. The CHL makes money, but comparing the WHL to the NCAA is like comparing the ECHL's revenues to the NHL's revenues - as an (admittedly weak) example, EA Sports has never had a 'WHL Hockey' video game with a player who looked like RNH, had the same number as RNH, had the same height/weight as RNH and played for the same team as RNH.

I don't want to agree with the crowd that thinks the CHL's version of indentured servitude in order for a chance to 'fulfill the dream' makes it all worth it; however, I find it difficult to compare the level of exploitation existent in the NCAA to the CHL.
I have a tough time with the NCAA one. On one hand they make tonnes of money off athletes and don't allow them to make any, but where does that money go? Does it not go back to the schools?

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08-19-2014, 11:52 AM
  #145
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Paying Nick Saban $7 million per year to lie to the families of underprivileged, economically disadvantaged, athletically gifted teenagers through selling the hope of a professional pay-day that is realized less than 2% of the time. The myth of the free education is just that - a myth. Most of the players that are granted athletic scholarships either lack the fundamental academic skills to succeed in a higher education environment, or lack the requisite time needed to perform well in their chosen area of study.

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08-19-2014, 11:59 AM
  #146
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I have a tough time with the NCAA one. On one hand they make tonnes of money off athletes and don't allow them to make any, but where does that money go? Does it not go back to the schools?
It does, but not necessarily in a way that benefits students and/or student athletes. Much of the donations and revenues go toward educational 'bricks and mortar' (ie. new buildings and facilities); quite a few of these contracts are awarded not in terms of educational impact, but in a bidding process that awards those who can provide the best reciprocal arrangements (ie. kickbacks) to decision makers.

Anyways, to not completely hijack the thread - the CHL has its flaws, but pure and utter exploitation is not necessarily one of them.

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08-19-2014, 12:05 PM
  #147
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I don't necessarily disagree with you JJ, but you're comparing apples to oranges. The NCAA made in the hundreds of millions of dollars off licensing software/apparel/you-name-it with players' names/likenesses which were sometimes 'unofficially' altered; this is how the 'O'Bannon' lawsuit started. The CHL makes money, but comparing the WHL to the NCAA is like comparing the ECHL's revenues to the NHL's revenues - as an (admittedly weak) example, EA Sports has never had a 'WHL Hockey' video game with a player who looked like RNH, had the same number as RNH, had the same height/weight as RNH and played for the same team as RNH.

I don't want to agree with the crowd that thinks the CHL's version of indentured servitude in order for a chance to 'fulfill the dream' makes it all worth it; however, I find it difficult to compare the level of exploitation existent in the NCAA to the CHL.
Clearly, my point wasn't to compare the NCAA to the CHL, it was to contrast the incredibly silly point that

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You know when unions are necessary? When you might die at work because of undue risk and bad work conditions
Because that's only part of the reason.

I agree with you, the CHL is a different animal. The NCAA is garbage and I hope they lose as many lawsuits as possible until that's rectified.

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08-19-2014, 12:11 PM
  #148
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Clearly, my point wasn't to compare the NCAA to the CHL, it was to contrast the incredibly silly point that



Because that's only part of the reason.

I agree with you, the CHL is a different animal. The NCAA is garbage and I hope they lose as many lawsuits as possible until that's rectified.
Eh, sorry JJ. I just re-read your post and realized that I took it out of context.

My apologies.

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08-19-2014, 12:23 PM
  #149
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Eh, sorry JJ. I just re-read your post and realized that I took it out of context.

My apologies.
All good, within the context of the thread it's a reasonable mistake to make, besides it adds clarity to my understanding.

I'm not sure what to make of a CHL PA, but I think if can protect the players from being "used" even a little it might be a good idea. That said, it's slightly more complicated then that.

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08-19-2014, 12:54 PM
  #150
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They are kids!

"In my day"... when you were 17 you worked at McDonalds and saved your money for college because your big opportunity to plan for your future required to you to SPEND and INVEST in it.

You coulda been the top student in your district, you were still gonna spend a good amount on your education to fulfill your potential and talent.

These kids are talented too... they have a chance to make it big (bigger than most smart chemistry students and as big as the most talented high-school drama prodigy)... and they have to invest very little risk in making it happen.

I don't see the exploitation (at least any different than any talented kid getting paid peanuts and performing above their paygrade... which the economy has been built on in many industries since the dawn of time).

... and I agree with Fourier... if the KW audited accounts don't show a cash cow, then the cash cow is few and far between. KW is a fairly affluent community, can't see too many junior teams doing much better, other than the very few in the major metros.
This

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