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Gainey: Top Three Overall??

View Poll Results: Bob G: Top 3 Complete Player
Oh, yes, for certain 10 19.23%
That's the dumbest thing I ever heard... 14 26.92%
Did you forget your meds or something, Bucky? That's just plain silly!! 28 53.85%
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-17-2005, 01:27 PM
  #26
God Bless Canada
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo
So, your case for defensive forwards being as valuable as offensive forwards is one player in the history of the Hart trophy finishing in the top 10 in voting based on his defensive play? That is hardly overwhelming evidence to support the notion that a defensive forward is as valuable as an offensive one. BTW, Peca also has 60 points that year - during a defensive era.

Yes, every team needs defensive players. Yes, they are valuable. But no, they are not as valuable as offensive players. A defensive forward has two defensemen and a goalie behind him to stop the opposing team.

Offensive players always receive more consideration for the Hart Trophy because they are more valuable to their team.

Would you honestly pick Jere Lehtinen or Mike Peca over :

Markus Naslund
Dany Heatley
Marian Hossa
Ilya Kovalchuk
Martin St. Louis
Vincent Lecavalier
Brad Richards
Sidney Crosby
Jarome Iginla
Joe Sakic
Peter Forsberg
Todd Bertuzzi
Alex Tanguay
Mats Sundin
Shane Doan
Rick Nash
Patrik Elias
Milan Hejduk

Nobody would. That, in combination with the Hart Trophy results over NHL history, tells us that offensive forwards are more valuable that defensive forwards.

Many times, probably most times, a player becomes great defensively because he is not a great scorer. It is out of necessity rather than choice because everyone knows that a great offensive player is more valuable than a great defensive player. GMs know it, fans know it and yes, the Hart trophy voters know it.

As was posted before, Gainey wasn't even the 3rd best player on his team, let alone 3rd best player ever.

He was a great player - probably about #150 or so, all time.
I find it ironic that in your list of players, you cite several players who are under-rated or even excellent defensively (Hossa, Sakic, St. Louis, Forsberg, Elias) or physical (Iginla, Bertuzzi, Doan). By the way, you left off Joe Thornton from your list.

Most of the players you mentioned, I wouldn't take Peca ahead of them. Mike Peca circa 1999 or 2002 I would take ahead of Tanguay, Sundin, Nash, Crosby or Hejduk RIGHT NOW (certainly not Crosby or Nash in five years from now). But Peca right now? Not likely.

Just to prove, though, the value of a dominant defensive forward, pop in a video of the Sabres 1999 Cup run. The only time you really hear the names of Yashin, Allison or Sundin is in discussions of how these three dynamic offensive centres were categorically and emphatically shut down by Mike Peca.

Some players do become good checkers because they don't have the talent to be top six forwards. But the great defensive forwards have the anticipation, the hockey sense and the resolve that simply cannot be taught. Peca has that. Madden has that. McCauley has that. Lehtinen has that. Carbonneau, Tikannen, Otto and Gainey had that. It's not as simple as "I'm not an offensive player, so I'll be a checker." The great defensive forwards all had special, God-given gifts that enabled them to stand out.

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Old
09-17-2005, 01:32 PM
  #27
12# Peter Bondra
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Originally Posted by VanIslander
He is ARGUABLY a Top-3 all-time among complete players of his time
(but yeah, "completeness" is overrated, and he was only that for a couple of seasons).

The Russians thought so.

Who was it that said if you give him 20 Gaineys he'd win every game every time?
Tichonov

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Old
09-17-2005, 10:59 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by mcphee
You know,Bucky, not wearing pants,may have influenced Gainey to keep walking that day. .
Bucky may not have been wearing pants, but he was most certainly in a thong and likely nothing else.

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Old
09-17-2005, 11:17 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by chooch
??

I've watched many of those games again recently and I think, as much as he was a butthead, Lemaire was deserving of the Conn Smythe over Gainey and all round play also. Not that either should have won it over Lafleur but if you had to choose. Gainey had a signature play that Red Fisher could hang over the other "candidates" (knocking Maloney off puck and scoring in one motion on Davidson, Game 4), like Robinson had in 78 (solo rush and scoring on Cheevers in Montreal).

But take away #10, and they dont get past Boston in the semis in 79. Looking back Gainey's Smythe is in the record books but...trophies were awarded on many different bases ie "Guy's already won it...". Red had an indordinate amount of sway over voters in those days.

I agree you could put Bob on in any situation and a coach would feel safe, but to be honest as anyone who watched him would admit, he was really embrarrassing with the puck, couldnt hit a barn door with his shot.

I always maintained he might have been a right handed shot in fact.

Trottier and Howe won scoring championships for gods sake.
He was third in Habs scoring that playoffs, averaging a point a game, and easily their best defensive forward. That is why it is the best all round performance I have ever seen.

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Old
09-18-2005, 02:25 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
I find it ironic that in your list of players, you cite several players who are under-rated or even excellent defensively (Hossa, Sakic, St. Louis, Forsberg, Elias) or physical (Iginla, Bertuzzi, Doan). By the way, you left off Joe Thornton from your list.
You are actually proving one of my points with this paragraph.

The best offensive players in the game are often excellent defensively as well. A great player is a great player - he can do everything well.

This further pushes one-dimensional defensive players down the list. If a guy is only good defensively and is not really an effective scorer (Gainey) how valuable can he really be? If many of the best scorers in the league are also excellent in their own end, a player that is strictly a defensive forward is not really all that valuable.

A 100 point scorer that is good defensively or a 70 point scorer that is excellent defensively are always more valuable than a 30 point scorer that is the best defensive player in the league.

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Old
09-18-2005, 02:32 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Bucky
Who in the name of Arthur Fonzerelli are the six that voted in his favor?
That reminds me... they will be showing reruns of Happy Days soon on Finnish TV. Interesting, isnīt it?

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Old
09-18-2005, 07:38 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by chooch
Bucky may not have been wearing pants, but he was most certainly in a thong and likely nothing else.

The fact that you are fantasizing about my underpants makes me exceptionally uncomfortable and a bit sick to my stomach.

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Old
09-18-2005, 12:25 PM
  #33
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"Fo Shizzle"?

please cut it out, i thought we're a hockey forum here...



this is a loaded and skewed question; IMO, judging by the wording in the poll options, this was more about getting the poster's name in there than any actual inquiry...

how about TOP 3 defensive forwards of all-time?

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Old
09-18-2005, 02:40 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by +73
"Fo Shizzle"?

please cut it out, i thought we're a hockey forum here...



this is a loaded and skewed question; IMO, judging by the wording in the poll options, this was more about getting the poster's name in there than any actual inquiry...

how about TOP 3 defensive forwards of all-time?
Thanks for enrolling so that you could enrich my life by telling me what I may or may not post. Judging by the wording, if you don't like my thread, feel free tostay out of it.

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Old
09-19-2005, 01:35 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Bucky
Who in the name of Arthur Fonzerelli are the six that voted in his favor?
The six would probably be those that have never had the opportunity to live a balanced and healthy life by eating Donairs, or watching much hockey for that matter.

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Old
09-19-2005, 04:03 PM
  #36
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The six would probably be those that have never had the opportunity to live a balanced and healthy life by eating Donairs, or watching much hockey for that matter.

Dear Lord, the inhumanity

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