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Old
08-19-2014, 02:43 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Can you show me where I said that I was looking for a "leader on our blueline?"


Can you show me where I said that I was "restricting 9 - 10 guys.."


The last I checked 7 (Strome, Nelson, Reinhart, MDC, JT, Okposo, and Hamonic) is less than 10. And, I didn't even say those guys were off the table. I just said I didn't expect Snow to move them.


The problem here is that you want to make a strong argument and my own post was not enough for you to be able to do that. So, you're making crap up that nobody wrote. Usually, when somebody tries to set up a strawman by distorting another post, its a sign of weak logic.

I'm looking for a solid #4 dman, and I'd like to see us give up a package built around some of our good defense prospects (like first rounder Ryan Pulock) or a vet like Frans Nielsen.
A minute eating top 4 D-Man can be defined as a leader on your blueline.

Again, those players are not easy to come by (especially if you're only looking at players better then Oduya). Did you see what it cost to get a #4 this year? Orpik, Stralman, etc. Those guys are expensive and valuable. Not only in $ but in the trade terms. So unless you're looking for a rental for this year that might come slightly cheaper, you ought to be prepared to part with some nice pieces. Again, obviously not JT, but some of those guys you listed would certainly end up being in the discussion.

You're getting so up in arms. Why don't you just post a thread "Your Top 4 D-Man to the Islanders" and see what gets thrown around?

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08-19-2014, 02:43 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Wish I could say I disagree. Still, it is worth pointing out that some defenders I would see serving that role (look at the Montreal-Buffalo and Van-Tampa deals) did get moved for less than the above this summer.

If we had acquired Georges or Garrison, either would have addressed the need nicely.
I don't consider those two on a different tier than Oduya, so I guess it's more about your personal preference. Then again, those players will probably be harder to acquire mid-season.

But hey, why not try. I want the Pens to get a legit scoring winger without giving up anything beyond Sutter and a defense prospect, so let 'er rip haha.

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08-19-2014, 02:48 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
What would be added to Nielsen to get Tanev?
A lot because we are trying to get younger. That's by I would add to get Nelson/Strome

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08-19-2014, 02:49 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AHB View Post
A minute eating top 4 D-Man can be defined as a leader on your blueline.?

Now, you're playing games. I never used the phrase "minute eater" nor did I talk about "a leader on the blueline." Are you trying to argue that every decent top four defender in the NHL is a minute eating leader?


I'll tell you what, Ace. From this point on, if you make arguments up that I didn't even make I'm just going to ignore your posts. I'll response to what I wrote, not your own personal spin on what I wrote.


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Originally Posted by AHB View Post
Again, those players are not easy to come by (especially if you're only looking at players better then Oduya). Did you see what it cost to get a #4 this year? Orpik, Stralman, etc. Those guys are expensive and valuable. Not only in $ but in the trade terms. So unless you're looking for a rental for this year that might come slightly cheaper, you ought to be prepared to part with some nice pieces. Again, obviously not JT, but some of those guys you listed would certainly end up being in the discussion..?

I think it will be hard to acquire a top four dman, no argument there. I think it is very likely Isles will have to run with what they have.


Doesn't much matter what you say with regard to Okposo, Hamonic, Strome, etc. Isles simply aren't trading those guys and I don't believe they'll be in the discussion.


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Originally Posted by AHB View Post

On top of that, 7 is close to 9. Sorry I didn't sit here and count out every player you listed. Talk about strawman.

You're getting so up in arms. Why don't you just post a thread "Your Top 4 D-Man to the Islanders" and see what gets thrown around?

goes to a general pattern in your posts. You like to twist everybody's else's arguments to be way more extreme than they are.


Obviously, the Isles aren't trading Hamonic or Okposo. How is that so unrealistic?

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08-19-2014, 02:50 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Canadian Canuck View Post
What would be added in order to get Nelson? It seems the isles have a logjam at Center, although that is never a bad thing.
Isles gm has already said interviews that he is not trading his top youngsters like Brock Nelson/Strome/Reinhart. This supports the comments made by Arthur Staple and Friedman during the regular season, that Snow is refusing to move top youngsters.

As for the logjam at center...you are not suggesting that 20 yr old Strome or 22/23 yr old Brock Nelson should be moved because Cizikas on the 4th line needs a roster spot or 30 yr olds Frans Nielsen/Grabbo are on the rosters? isles head coach has already spoken about B. Nelson playing first line LW. And even before the Grabbo signing, the press was speculating about Strome breaking in on the wing for the first few seasons.

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08-19-2014, 02:51 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I don't consider those two on a different tier than Oduya, so I guess it's more about your personal preference. Then again, those players will probably be harder to acquire mid-season..



This is why I was very clear in pointing out that my negative view of Oduya was my opinion, and just that. Personal preference, and I can't say that I speak for Snow or other Islander fans.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
But hey, why not try. I want the Pens to get a legit scoring winger without giving up anything beyond Sutter and a defense prospect, so let 'er rip haha.

Depends on what you mean by "legit scoring winger..."

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08-19-2014, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadian Canuck View Post
A lot because we are trying to get younger. That's by I would add to get Nelson/Strome




Neilsen for Tanev is a lot more realistic than a quantity for quality deal for one of our core young assets.

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08-19-2014, 02:53 PM
  #58
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Isles: Paul Martin + 2nd round pick

Pens: Kyle Okposo

???

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08-19-2014, 02:56 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by ObsessedCreative View Post
Isles: Paul Martin + 2nd round pick

Pens: Kyle Okposo

???


Do you really believe this is doable?

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08-19-2014, 02:56 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by AHB View Post
A minute eating top 4 D-Man can be defined as a leader on your blueline.

Again, those players are not easy to come by (especially if you're only looking at players better then Oduya). Did you see what it cost to get a #4 this year? Orpik, Stralman, etc. Those guys are expensive and valuable. Not only in $ but in the trade terms. So unless you're looking for a rental for this year that might come slightly cheaper, you ought to be prepared to part with some nice pieces. Again, obviously not JT, but some of those guys you listed would certainly end up being in the discussion.

You're getting so up in arms. Why don't you just post a thread "Your Top 4 D-Man to the Islanders" and see what gets thrown around?
Your opinion is that the isles are looking for a big minute eating defenseman..


Isles have their top pairing of CDH/Hamonic, which the head coach says they will go back to.
Despite fan uneasiness over Lubo's durability, Snow is saying he is healthy.

I have not read one credible source, who reports the isles are looking for a big minute eating defenseman.

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08-19-2014, 02:58 PM
  #61
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Streit for 7th.
Flyers are exceeding te roof with 4,936429 mil and Streit is on a 5,25 mil deal for 3 more years.

Streit used to be the no. 1 defender on LI and with Coburn, Schenn, Grossman, Timonen, A-Mac, MDZ, Schultz and Gustafsson on the line up there will be hard to crack top 4.

Pronger also is on the cap roll but will get placed on the IR list.

Still could be a win win for the three parts.

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08-19-2014, 03:01 PM
  #62
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Now, you're playing games. I never used the phrase "minute eater" nor did I talk about "a leader on the blueline." Are you trying to argue that every decent top four defender in the NHL is a minute eating leader?
Again, you don't want Oduya, so that would likely mean you want someone better then him. A player better then him, in a top 4 role, is going to be getting between 17 and 20 minutes a night. That I would define as a minute eater.

Quote:
I'll tell you what, Ace. From this point on, if you make arguments up that I didn't even make I'm just going to ignore your posts. I'll response to what I wrote, not your own personal spin on what I wrote.
Ok...

Quote:
Doesn't much matter what you say with regard to Okposo, Hamonic, Strome, etc. Isles simply aren't trading those guys and I don't believe they'll be in the discussion.
Hamonic and JT make sense, but again, those other guys, I don't see why they wouldn't move for the right deal. You'd be trading from a postiion of strength. That would make sense. Teams do it all the time. 7 untouchables is asinine.


Quote:
goes to a general pattern in your posts. You like to twist everybody's else's arguments to be way more extreme than they are.
You've studied all of my posts? Ok. I don't twist arguments. We're here to talk hockey, so I'm talking it. You're suggesting that you're going to get a top 4 D-Man for basically lesser players. You keep reverting back to Nielsen and Pulock. Nielsen's contract is up in 2 seasons and he's a 3C on a good team. That will get you a lesser #4. Pulock will not get you a Top 4 on his own. Regardless of HF's extreme value places on prospects, they do not bring back productive/important players unless they are of extremely high quality.

If you want to create a package around something, maybe Nielsen and Pulock would get something done.


Frankly from watching quite a bit of the isles over the last few years, they need a leader on that core. Getting a #4 will not change them dramatically. Will it help, sure, but realistically they should be trying to add a #2 or #3 and just pay up with some of their offense. They have a plethora of very good offensive players and prospects, all of whom are relatively young. Trade one of those bright young players for a very good established D who can help not only on the ice, but with the development of guys like Hamonic, De Haan, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Your opinion is that the isles are looking for a big minute eating defenseman..


Isles have their top pairing of CDH/Hamonic, which the head coach says they will go back to.
Despite fan uneasiness over Lubo's durability, Snow is saying he is healthy.

I have not read one credible source, who reports the isles are looking for a big minute eating defenseman.
Like many threads started on the trade board in August, this was not made based on a credible report. It was based on a fans idea that the Islanders need to strengthen their defense. Which I think we can all agree on. Lubo is not that good anymore, nor is he durable. CDH and Hamonic leading your first pair is a complete wild card and while their potential is very good it is not assured. A veteran, high end D-Man would do wonders.

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08-19-2014, 03:11 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AHB View Post

Again, you don't want Oduya, so that would likely mean you want someone better then him. A player better then him, in a top 4 role, is going to be getting between 17 and 20 minutes a night. That I would define as a minute eater..



Not an Oduya fan, in general. Other guys at his level (like George or Garrison, both traded for second rounders this summer) would be ideal.

I was really annoyed that Buffalo got Georges for that little. Suspect Snow was not in the mix because Islanders were likely on his no trade list.



Quote:
Originally Posted by AHB View Post


Hamonic and JT make sense, but again, those other guys, I don't see why they wouldn't move for the right deal. You'd be trading from a postiion of strength. That would make sense. Teams do it all the time. 7 untouchables is asinine...

Is it at all possible for you to respond to me with the attitude, personal insults, or twisting of words? I never said all those guys where "untouchable" - I just said I didn't see Snow trading them. That's different from "untouchable" because I don't believe that Snow would say "I won't move those guys under any circumstance." I'm sure some of the prize kids would be out there under the right circumstances - just don't see that happening.

you should be able to disagree with others without resorting to comments about their posts being "asinine."


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Originally Posted by AHB View Post
You've studied all of my posts? Ok. I don't twist arguments. We're here to talk hockey, so I'm talking it. ...

In this thread, you've continually shown a pattern of vastly exaggerating what others are arguing. Somehow you made the leap from the kind of deal I wanted, for a Georges/Garrison type to a "leader on the blue line" who "eats up tons of minutes."

I'm just not going to counter those extreme distortions anymore.


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Originally Posted by AHB View Post
You're suggesting that you're going to get a top 4 D-Man for basically lesser players. You keep reverting back to Nielsen and Pulock. Nielsen's contract is up in 2 seasons and he's a 3C on a good team. That will get you a lesser #4. Pulock will not get you a Top 4 on his own. Regardless of HF's extreme value places on prospects, they do not bring back productive/important players unless they are of extremely high quality....

Nielsen had 58 points last year. He's more than #3.

And, Pullock was a recent first rounder who is developing nicely.

Buffalo and Tampa both got players at the level I am seeking for less.



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Originally Posted by AHB View Post
Frankly from watching quite a bit of the isles over the last few years, they need a leader on that core. Getting a #4 will not change them dramatically. Will it help, sure, but realistically they should be trying to add a #2 or #3 and just pay up with some of their offense. They have a plethora of very good offensive players and prospects, all of whom are relatively young. Trade one of those bright young players for a very good established D who can help not only on the ice, but with the development of guys like Hamonic, De Haan, etc.

A number 2 or 3 would be great - I just don't see us having the assets for that kind of acquisition. I believe that the price of a true 2/3 dman in the NHL would be sky high. And, even if that guy was out there (and I don't believe a player like that is available), the price of acquisition would just create other huge holes in the roster.

Beyond all that, here you are totally talking about an entirely different trade than I was discussing. I proposed a deal involving prospects or 2nd line forward for an OK #4 dman who could slot in with Vish and maybe take a regular shift until Reinhart develops. You want to turn this into a thread where the Isles surrender Strome, Okposo etc for a stud 2/3 liner and seem to be getting bent out of shape because the original post was not about that sort of deal.

You might want to chill out a bit.

Personally (and I realize this is a radical untested approach), I'm in favor of drafting good kids, carefully developing them, and the letting them break in slowly. I can't think of many situations over the years where a team traded a really good young kid for an experienced vet and wound up winning over the long run.

Besides, teams with true #2/#3 defenders are not exactly lining up to deal them for unproven youngsters.


Last edited by Darth Milbury: 08-19-2014 at 03:21 PM.
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08-19-2014, 03:15 PM
  #64
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Depends on what you mean by "legit scoring winger..."
Clearly better than Dupuis, Downie, Spaling, and an 18 year old Kapanen, under 30, and signed beyond this year at a manageable cap hit.

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08-19-2014, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manhattan View Post
Streit for 7th.
Flyers are exceeding te roof with 4,936429 mil and Streit is on a 5,25 mil deal for 3 more years.

Streit used to be the no. 1 defender on LI and with Coburn, Schenn, Grossman, Timonen, A-Mac, MDZ, Schultz and Gustafsson on the line up there will be hard to crack top 4.

Pronger also is on the cap roll but will get placed on the IR list.

Still could be a win win for the three parts.

No take backs!


Philly is stuck with that contract.

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08-19-2014, 03:19 PM
  #66
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Clearly better than Dupuis, Downie, Spaling, and an 18 year old Kapanen, under 30, and signed beyond this year at a manageable cap hit.


I'm not sure that you could get those players for Sutter (and, btw, I'd see Pulock and Nielsen as worth quite a bit more at this point in time), but I do think Pitt can and will pull off that kind of acquisition.

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08-19-2014, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Again, you don't want Oduya, so that would likely mean you want someone better then him. A player better then him, in a top 4 role, is going to be getting between 17 and 20 minutes a night. That I would define as a minute eater.
Then just about EVERY top 4 defenseman is a big minute eater, according to your description.




Quote:
Hamonic and JT make sense, but again, those other guys, I don't see why they wouldn't move for the right deal. You'd be trading from a postiion of strength. That would make sense. Teams do it all the time. 7 untouchables is asinine.
Isles position of strength is their deep prospect pool of blueliners. Opposing fans get caught up in thinking Strome/Reinhart/Brock Nelson/Pulock are the only quality prospects the Isles can offer, but an almost nhl ready Mayfield and Pokka, both of whom have top 4 potential, are very good prospects

Quote:
You keep reverting back to Nielsen and Pulock. Nielsen's contract is up in 2 seasons and he's a 3C on a good team. That will get you a lesser #4. Pulock will not get you a Top 4 on his own. Regardless of HF's extreme value places on prospects, they do not bring back productive/important players unless they are of extremely high quality.
30 yr old Frans Nielsen is coming off a 58 pt season. Those are 2nd liner numbers.
He will be moved to the third line because of the Grabbo signing.




Quote:
Frankly from watching quite a bit of the isles over the last few years, they need a leader on that core. Getting a #4 will not change them dramatically. Will it help, sure, but realistically they should be trying to add a #2 or #3 and just pay up with some of their offense. They have a plethora of very good offensive players and prospects, all of whom are relatively young. Trade one of those bright young players for a very good established D who can help not only on the ice, but with the development of guys like Hamonic, De Haan, etc.
Go listen to Snow's WFAN interview from about a month ago.

Snow told the hosts, Joe and Evan, that he doubts he will land a top pairing D because he is NOT giving up the talent it will cost for that type of addition and he expects his top defenseman to come from the group of CDH/Hamonic/Reinhart/Pulock/Pokka.
CDH/Hamonic are in the NHL. Reinhart looks NHL ready and Pokka/Pulock are turning pro in Oct. 2014, both likely headed for Bridgeport.



Quote:
Like many threads started on the trade board in August, this was not made based on a credible report. It was based on a fans idea that the Islanders need to strengthen their defense. Which I think we can all agree on. Lubo is not that good anymore, nor is he durable. CDH and Hamonic leading your first pair is a complete wild card and while their potential is very good it is not assured. A veteran, high end D-Man would do wonders
CDH/Hamonic played well together last season, on the first pairing. A wild card would be if they had never been paired in those roles andif the front office,had no idea of whether they would have chemistry.

As for Lubo, time will tell. Many of the armchair gms wrote off CDH before last season, while the front office insisted he was still very much in their future. I am going to guess that the isles doctors and front office have a better idea of how Lubo is progressing, then message board fans.

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08-19-2014, 03:23 PM
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It's hard to believe how thin skin some of you have in here. I truly don't feel I have given attitude or been condescending in any way. But if you're going to take an attempt at a discussion regarding the proposed topic as an insult (just because I disagree with some of your opinions) then I"ll show myself the door.

In the future it might be wiser to just make a thread on the Isles board if you don't want people's opinions that are going to strongly disagree with yours.

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08-19-2014, 03:23 PM
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Do you really believe this is doable?
You're getting a top pairing D-man for a full year that the isles have wanted badly in the past. You're also a team that could offer him the $ & term to sign an extension, and a pick.

Top pairing D-man >>> Wingers in terms of value and how hard they are to acquire and or develop.

Why not?

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08-19-2014, 03:27 PM
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It's hard to believe how thin skin some of you have in here. I truly don't feel I have given attitude or been condescending in any way. But if you're going to take an attempt at a discussion regarding the proposed topic as an insult (just because I disagree with some of your opinions) then I"ll show myself the door.

In the future it might be wiser to just make a thread on the Isles board if you don't want people's opinions that are going to strongly disagree with yours.




Dude, you are welcome to come here and disagree. That's what the board is about! You should be able to do that without lecturing others about their ideas being "asinine" or twisting positions to be waaaaaaaay more extreme than they are. I don't take issue with you disagreeing - I take issue with you making up arguments I never made.


Otherwise, I pretty much think you are correct in all your assumptions. defenders are at a sky high premium right now, and the Isles won't get much beyond an Oduya/Garrison level guy with what they have available to move.

Fortunately, that is exactly the kind of player I'd like to see the Isles acquire.


There were also a few less established players (like Martinez) mentioned in this thread that I'd be willing to take a chance with.

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08-19-2014, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ObsessedCreative View Post
You're getting a top pairing D-man for a full year that the isles have wanted badly in the past. You're also a team that could offer him the $ & term to sign an extension, and a pick.

Top pairing D-man >>> Wingers in terms of value and how hard they are to acquire and or develop.

Why not?



I'd probably be willing to part with something like Grabner and a pick for Martin. I don't really see a good match between the teams though.

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08-19-2014, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by AHB View Post
It's hard to believe how thin skin some of you have in here. I truly don't feel I have given attitude or been condescending in any way. But if you're going to take an attempt at a discussion regarding the proposed topic as an insult (just because I disagree with some of your opinions) then I"ll show myself the door.

In the future it might be wiser to just make a thread on the Isles board if you don't want people's opinions that are going to strongly disagree with yours.
Who is thin skinned?

Isles gm has recently indicated in interviews, who he is willing to move.
Credible press sources told fans before Snow did, who Snow's untouchables were.

Isles are not looking for a " go to guy" or " big minute eater". From what's been reported, they want a solid #4 vet, who can be a placeholder until their top youngsters gain some AHL experience and step into the NHL.

They are offering Grabner/Bailey. they have solid prospects like Pokka/Mayfield with top 4 potential to add and also have the Flyers 2nd in a deep draft they can add to the right package.

I think non-isle fans, offering their teams #5/#6 guys are missing the point: the isles show no interest in adding #5/#6 guys to their top 4. the isles would likely just let Hickey and Reinhart battle for that #4 spot, if the only defenseman offered were #5/#6 defenseman.

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08-19-2014, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Dude, you are welcome to come here and disagree. That's what the board is about! You should be able to do that without lecturing others about their ideas being "asinine" or twisting positions to be waaaaaaaay more extreme than they are. I don't take issue with you disagreeing - I take issue with you making up arguments I never made.


Otherwise, I pretty much think you are correct in all your assumptions. defenders are at a sky high premium right now, and the Isles won't get much beyond an Oduya/Garrison level guy with what they have available to move.

Fortunately, that is exactly the kind of player I'd like to see the Isles acquire.


There were also a few less established players (like Martinez) mentioned in this thread that I'd be willing to take a chance with.
Again, I said listing 7 untouchables was asinine. YOu don't like my vocabulary? Ok, listing 7 untouchables is "unrealistic." Is that better?

I'm not getting into a pissing war about this. I'm here to talk hockey and not whine back and forth. I'll stop posting in here since clearly a differing opinion can't be handled.

A few others have posted along the lines of my thoughts and all of us have been responded to in critical terms.

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08-19-2014, 03:35 PM
  #74
Nolanitis
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Still don't see a trade coming. There are way too many teams looking for top 4 defenseman, the price is too high. I bet the defense is going to be much better this year with the addition of 20yo Reinhart.

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08-19-2014, 03:38 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ObsessedCreative View Post
You're getting a top pairing D-man for a full year that the isles have wanted badly in the past. You're also a team that could offer him the $ & term to sign an extension, and a pick.

Top pairing D-man >>> Wingers in terms of value and how hard they are to acquire and or develop.

Why not?
Why not? How about because the isles GM, says he is not paying the high price to add a top pairing D?

As for your opinion that 'it will be no problem, signing player X to an extension"....
Streit wanted to stay, until the isles refused his terms. AMac would not budge off his extenson demands and left.Isles offered both Boyle and Vanek, more then they eventually signed for elsewhere.

It is not a coincidence, that when Snow shopped his 5th overall this summer, the press says he insisted on a high end young player with term

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