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06-05-2017, 04:16 PM
  #551
Cullen Bohannon
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Originally Posted by Foppberg View Post
I don't really buy into the narrative that MacKinnon's 'dumb' or more accurately, lacking IQ.
It's not a narrative, it's the truth.

He's an extremely gifted athletic player with good offensive instincts, but he doesn't see the ice like the high IQ playmakers and suffers from tunnel vision when he tries too hard to push the play.

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06-05-2017, 04:18 PM
  #552
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To put it most simply, I don't know what organization sees what Nathan MacKinnon was able to do against the Wild in the 1st round of 2014 and decides that they need to change something about the way he plays.

I'm glad he's progressing and maturing as a well-rounded center, but the guy is an outrageous offensive threat from the wing. Why we had to neuter that, I'll never be sure. Was it as simple as losing our center depth? Because if they drafted MacKinnon to be a center, then they already knew ROR and Stastny were out the door.

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06-05-2017, 04:20 PM
  #553
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Originally Posted by Cullen Bohannon View Post
It's not a narrative, it's the truth.

He's an extremely gifted athletic player with good offensive instincts, but he doesn't see the ice like the high IQ playmakers and suffers from tunnel vision when he tries too hard to push the play.
Agree to disagree.

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06-05-2017, 04:21 PM
  #554
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MacK can and will make it work at center. Team Canada has such a wealth of centers and only four of them can play there, I wouldn't read too much into that. TC is also obviously an insanely stacked team at every position, so nobody should be shocked that his numbers go up when he plays with them, either. Correlation isn't necessarily cause.

He was the only player last year who was consistent, on a team near the bottom in GF, and in on I think 23% of all goals. I think once the team manages to not be garbage on multiple levels, he'll rise to the challenge.

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06-05-2017, 04:29 PM
  #555
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Originally Posted by Foppberg View Post
I don't really buy into the narrative that MacKinnon's 'dumb' or more accurately, lacking IQ.
Oh I don't either. When he's frustrated he does dumb things, but that doesn't make him dumb. When playing with confidence he shows some very high level thinking on the ice.

He just has a pattern of doing better with a partner in crime who's a high-IQ playmaker and can hold onto the puck.

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Originally Posted by AvsGuy View Post
To put it most simply, I don't know what organization sees what Nathan MacKinnon was able to do against the Wild in the 1st round of 2014 and decides that they need to change something about the way he plays.

I'm glad he's progressing and maturing as a well-rounded center, but the guy is an outrageous offensive threat from the wing. Why we had to neuter that, I'll never be sure. Was it as simple as losing our center depth? Because if they drafted MacKinnon to be a center, then they already knew ROR and Stastny were out the door.
He was an outrageous offensive threat from Center until he got hurt and frustrated a year ago to. So what did we neuter? You seem to be focusing more on his position than on his confidence and linemates...which is a mistake.

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06-05-2017, 06:21 PM
  #556
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To piggy back off what cgf has said about confidence and linemates... The avs have had horrible/horrid depth at wing since Mack has come into the league. We see the same thing with duchene year in and year out. Throw scrubs on his wing and hope they get the Crosby effect. Well neither Mack nor Duchy are Crosby, so they're not going to turn a turd into gold. If given a legit top 6 playmaking winger, I have no doubt Mack will produce at a high level. Is rantanen the answer? Time will tell. How good was Mack at center end of 15-16 campaign with Landy and duchene on his wings?

I don't blame people for wanting to find a simple solution to make the team all better, but throwing Mack back on wing isn't the answer. We'd be filling one hole and creating another... The underlying issue remains to be depth. Forward and defensive depth. The only depth we've had the last few seasons is centers, 4th liners and 6/7 dmen. Now after a couple seasons of losing top 6 centers, we don't really have depth anywhere except said 6/7 dmen

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06-05-2017, 07:59 PM
  #557
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To the people trying to convince everyone of the whole "bad linemates" nonsense, you do realize that for the majority of his career he's been on a line with our best winger Landeskog right?

His first season he spent 38% with Landeskog and Stastny, and 23% with Duchene and ROR.

The next season was 50% of his time with ROR and Landeskog, and 25% with Landeskog and Iginla.

After that it was 32% with Duchene and Landeskog, and 20% with Duchene and Tanguay.

Finally last season he spent 32% with Landeskog and Rantanen, and 23% with Andrighetto and Rantanen.

Besides Iginla and Tanguay, he has been placed with our top producing forwards for the majority of his ice time.

Nipping this false narrative in the bud before it gets parroted and becomes belief among many fans.

Edit: Check out the numbers for yourselves here http://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/f...es=2013-2014:R


Last edited by Cullen Bohannon; 06-05-2017 at 08:07 PM..
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06-05-2017, 08:05 PM
  #558
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The season before this one MacK only started playing with Landy or Duchene after he had already been carrying the team for over a month, and shortly before he injured his wrist/hand...after having gotten those two going...Tanguay was his best winger during that stretch where he was playing the best hockey of his career.

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06-05-2017, 10:46 PM
  #559
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Is landeskog a playmaker? Or was that stastny? What relevance does this information have on the horrid forward depth this team has? So you load your only top 6 wingers on macks line... Then what? Then the other team only has to shut down one line. But sure, the big issue here is playing Mack at center and not wing...

Several posters were *****ing about Mack being tugged back and forth between center and wing a couple seasons ago. 'Just let him take his lumps and develop at center where he should play long term'. 'Management is messing with his development' Etc etc.... Yet here we are

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06-05-2017, 11:17 PM
  #560
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21 years old and people are giving up. The whole team had a bad season, not fair to grade anyone on last years **** show.


MacKinnon is still one of the most valuable young centres in hockey, you guys need to relax. He'll be fine.

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06-06-2017, 12:40 AM
  #561
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cullen Bohannon View Post
To the people trying to convince everyone of the whole "bad linemates" nonsense, you do realize that for the majority of his career he's been on a line with our best winger Landeskog right?

His first season he spent 38% with Landeskog and Stastny, and 23% with Duchene and ROR.

The next season was 50% of his time with ROR and Landeskog, and 25% with Landeskog and Iginla.

After that it was 32% with Duchene and Landeskog, and 20% with Duchene and Tanguay.

Finally last season he spent 32% with Landeskog and Rantanen, and 23% with Andrighetto and Rantanen.

Besides Iginla and Tanguay, he has been placed with our top producing forwards for the majority of his ice time.

Nipping this false narrative in the bud before it gets parroted and becomes belief among many fans.

Edit: Check out the numbers for yourselves here http://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/f...es=2013-2014:R
Do me a favor and rank the following players as far as absolute skill level and effectiveness in the given year:
2013-14 Stastny .85PPG
2013-14 Landeskog .80PPG
2013-14 Duchene .99PPG
2013-14 ROR .80PPG
2013-14 MacKinnon .77PPG
2016-17 Landeskog .46PPG
2016-17 Andrighetto .52PPG
2016-17 Rantanen .51PPG
2016-17 MacKinnon .65PPG

Looks to me like he was getting carried in one season, and doing the carrying in the other. Maybe not 100% either way, but more often that not.

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06-06-2017, 05:09 AM
  #562
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Originally Posted by LieutenantDangle View Post
Is landeskog a playmaker? Or was that stastny? What relevance does this information have on the horrid forward depth this team has? So you load your only top 6 wingers on macks line... Then what? Then the other team only has to shut down one line. But sure, the big issue here is playing Mack at center and not wing...

Several posters were *****ing about Mack being tugged back and forth between center and wing a couple seasons ago. 'Just let him take his lumps and develop at center where he should play long term'. 'Management is messing with his development' Etc etc.... Yet here we are
What relevance? It debunked the false narrative. So, you're complaining that he was put with our best players more often than not and pointing to a lack of depth as the reason?

His rookie year was the year we had the best forward depth in the league and were able to roll 3 lines loaded with actual top-9 players.

It's not realistic to have that kind of depth, there's a salary cap preventing that.

You still haven't proven or convinced me that MacKinnon HASN'T been on lines with our best players more often than not.

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06-06-2017, 05:26 AM
  #563
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Originally Posted by Tweaky View Post
Do me a favor and rank the following players as far as absolute skill level and effectiveness in the given year:
2013-14 Stastny .85PPG
2013-14 Landeskog .80PPG
2013-14 Duchene .99PPG
2013-14 ROR .80PPG
2013-14 MacKinnon .77PPG
2016-17 Landeskog .46PPG
2016-17 Andrighetto .52PPG
2016-17 Rantanen .51PPG
2016-17 MacKinnon .65PPG

Looks to me like he was getting carried in one season, and doing the carrying in the other. Maybe not 100% either way, but more often that not.

Okay...but regardless he still spent the majority of his time on a line with 3 out of the 4 top PPG players this past season.

The point isn't who carried who or who had chemistry with who, it's that he HAS been placed in a position to succeed next to our top players for the majority of his NHL ice time, and that it isn't "bad linemates" and "terrible forward depth" holding him back like some people are trying to suggest, because it sounds like it could be plausible but isn't based on any sort of facts.

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06-06-2017, 09:00 AM
  #564
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its absolutely painful to see posters point back to Mack's rookie season where he was given a sheltered 3rd line role with pp time and no defensive responsibilities on one of the top offensive teams in the league for half the season and try to argue that it was his best hockey. He is a Center. He will be a center. The only reason he played on wing was due to the absurd depth we had at that position and to let him get his feet wet in the NHL. Let us move on from this conversation...
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MacKinnon regular season stats broken down into months:

October (7 games)=6 pts (1g, 5a)

November (14 games)=9 pts (4g, 5a)

December (15 games)= 10 pts (4g, 6a)

January (12 games)= 8 pts (2g, 6a)

February (14 games)= 8 pts (1g, 7a)

March (16 games)= 10 pts (4g, 6a)

April (5 games)= 2 pts (0g, 2a)

so, technically he put up higher production in his first 35 games of the season than his final 35 games of thee season. Its tough to remember when that 92-26-29 line became a thing, but iirc it wasn't until fairly late in the season
This was while he was playing center in a sheltered role.

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Originally Posted by LieutenantDangle View Post
To piggy back off what cgf has said about confidence and linemates... The avs have had horrible/horrid depth at wing since Mack has come into the league. We see the same thing with duchene year in and year out. Throw scrubs on his wing and hope they get the Crosby effect. Well neither Mack nor Duchy are Crosby, so they're not going to turn a turd into gold. If given a legit top 6 playmaking winger, I have no doubt Mack will produce at a high level. Is rantanen the answer? Time will tell. How good was Mack at center end of 15-16 campaign with Landy and duchene on his wings?

I don't blame people for wanting to find a simple solution to make the team all better, but throwing Mack back on wing isn't the answer. We'd be filling one hole and creating another... The underlying issue remains to be depth. Forward and defensive depth. The only depth we've had the last few seasons is centers, 4th liners and 6/7 dmen. Now after a couple seasons of losing top 6 centers, we don't really have depth anywhere except said 6/7 dmen
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Originally Posted by Cullen Bohannon View Post
What relevance? It debunked the false narrative. So, you're complaining that he was put with our best players more often than not and pointing to a lack of depth as the reason?

His rookie year was the year we had the best forward depth in the league and were able to roll 3 lines loaded with actual top-9 players.

It's not realistic to have that kind of depth, there's a salary cap preventing that.

You still haven't proven or convinced me that MacKinnon HASN'T been on lines with our best players more often than not.

Let me spell it out for you. Im not arguing what I've bolded in your post. Look at the bolded text from my posts above and maybe my argument will become a little clearer... If this still doesnt help and I need to extrapolate my argument further please PM me.
additionally I dont see Rantanen as a top line winger in his rookie year. He should be in due time, and when he reaches that level he and Mack will light it up

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06-08-2017, 04:20 PM
  #565
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I didnt know a player who has such a huge weakness as dumbness could somehow play in the nhl. From what ive seen, and ive watched a lot of Mackinnon's play, he is not a dumb player. Above average IQ at the very least, if not high.

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06-09-2017, 01:13 PM
  #566
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Originally Posted by Jarey Curry View Post
I didnt know a player who has such a huge weakness as dumbness could somehow play in the nhl. From what ive seen, and ive watched a lot of Mackinnon's play, he is not a dumb player. Above average IQ at the very least, if not high.
I love Mack but no he does not possess above average hockey iq. If Mack is above average hockey iq then Mikko is a freakin hockey savant. The less thinking Mack has to do out there the better his game is. This is why he always looks so damn good when he plays in tournaments.

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06-09-2017, 02:08 PM
  #567
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I feel like people think that when we state him having a lower hockey IQ, it means that he doesn't have talent or he sucks.

Mack has a crazy level of athletic ability and talent, his brain just doesn't keep up with his body when he over thinks the play or tries too hard to be a difference maker.

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06-09-2017, 02:18 PM
  #568
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Originally Posted by Cullen Bohannon View Post
I feel like people think that when we state him having a lower hockey IQ, it means that he doesn't have talent or he sucks.

Mack has a crazy level of athletic ability and talent, his brain just doesn't keep up with his body when he over thinks the play or tries too hard to be a difference maker.
Avsolutely accurate statement

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06-09-2017, 03:15 PM
  #569
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I have watched a lot of Hockey through out my life and I had to make an account literally just to say that you guys who are saying Mack has a low IQ are idiots. Look up prospect reports from before he was drafted and 90% of them even say he has a high iq. Trying to do everything himself as others have said is the biggest knock against him and that is not a low iq problem, it is a issue of not trusting his team mates. Which will be fixed as synergy is created with a linemate, like what was happening with Rantanen and Andrighetto at the end of the season.

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06-09-2017, 03:28 PM
  #570
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Originally Posted by darthwispy View Post
I have watched a lot of Hockey through out my life and I had to make an account literally just to say that you guys who are saying Mack has a low IQ are idiots. Look up prospect reports from before he was drafted and 90% of them even say he has a high iq. Trying to do everything himself as others have said is the biggest knock against him and that is not a low iq problem, it is a issue of not trusting his team mates. Which will be fixed as synergy is created with a linemate, like what was happening with Rantanen and Andrighetto at the end of the season.
Welcome.

Pre-NHL scouting reports are an awful resource to use to judge a hockey player's IQ. Kids who have the physical talent that much greater than those around them generally looks a lot smarter due to their confidence and ability to be better than everyone else.

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06-09-2017, 03:37 PM
  #571
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Originally Posted by darthwispy View Post
I have watched a lot of Hockey through out my life and I had to make an account literally just to say that you guys who are saying Mack has a low IQ are idiots. Look up prospect reports from before he was drafted and 90% of them even say he has a high iq. Trying to do everything himself as others have said is the biggest knock against him and that is not a low iq problem, it is a issue of not trusting his team mates. Which will be fixed as synergy is created with a linemate, like what was happening with Rantanen and Andrighetto at the end of the season.
You mean all the scouting reports that rave about his speed, athleticism, drive and offensive skill? Haven't been able to find any raving about his IQ. Hardly 90%. It's clear by now that Drouin was his brain in the Q.

http://www.mynhldraft.com/2013/NHL-D...than-MacKinnon
http://forecaster.thehockeynews.com/player/9980
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospec...han-mackinnon/
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/d...han-mackinnon/

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06-10-2017, 06:28 AM
  #572
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Those reports seem to praise his offensive creativity and hockey sense. Granted, maybe not as much as his skating, etc.

The closest thing to a knock on his IQ is this: "His hockey sense is maybe a notch down from Drouin, but not far." That seems like praise to me, given what we know about Drouin's IQ.

But as stated, pre-draft evals of his IQ are rather past their sell-by date now. But In his play now, I do not see as much low-IQ as I do lack of faith in linemates. When he has linemates that can read him, adn that he knows can think the game at his speed, then it works better for everyone. When he is missing those types of linemates, then he tries to do it all himself.

But I do see how folks could come to the conclusion that his IQ is lacking, as he does not seem to be able to slow it down to make bad players better. He can make lazy skilled players better. He can make smart slow players better. But dumb and slow, not so much. Comeau is out of luck.

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06-11-2017, 02:52 PM
  #573
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I always find the issue of MacKinnon’s hockey IQ to be more complicated than people realize.

Does he have a high IQ for the average person that plays hockey? Absolutely, it's very high. Is it high for the average pro hockey player? Yes, definitely. Is it high for the average NHLer? Yes, it is. The NHL is littered with 2nd, 3rd, and 4th liners that don’t possess the vision and instincts he has.

Now here’s where the nuance comes in. Does Nate have a high hockey IQ for a top line star forward? The kind that was drafted 1st overall? No.

It's still not that simple though, because he also has to process the game much faster than almost anyone on the ice, since he plays the game at a speed faster than almost anyone else. If he played at a slower, more deliberate pace, he’d have much more time to process the game.

But when he’s flying around, he’s got to concentrate on not losing the puck skating that fast, where all the opposition players are, if anyone is gonna catch him with his head down with a big hit, where the goalie is leaving holes to shoot at, where his teammates are, where the passing lanes are. He has to process all these things much quicker than everyone else, and on top of that, he’s engaged in a level of creative thinking in order to make plays that aren’t expected.

He has less time to process all these things that hockey players have to process, because he's playing faster than everyone. You can see it in him too. He's trying to push the pace. He's trying to overwhelm you with his speed. That's the tool he's relying on most to create offense, because that's his best tool.

So, does someone like Drouin have a better hockey IQ than MacKinnon? Yeah, absolutely, but that’s his biggest strength, and he’s one of the best in the world in that area. He also doesn’t push the pace quite as much as Nate, so he’s not forced to process the game as fast.

I consider Nate to have an average hockey IQ for a top line offensive forward, but he’s definitely above average in general terms. Same goes for Duchene.

I think both have issues of trusting their line mates like darthwispy alluded to, but I think that mostly happens when they play with the wrong line mates. When they play with someone they have respect for their skill and IQ, they do trust them, and click well with them.

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06-11-2017, 03:48 PM
  #574
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Originally Posted by Mystic MacK View Post
I always find the issue of MacKinnonís hockey IQ to be more complicated than people realize.

Does he have a high IQ for the average person that plays hockey? Absolutely, it's very high. Is it high for the average pro hockey player? Yes, definitely. Is it high for the average NHLer? Yes, it is. The NHL is littered with 2nd, 3rd, and 4th liners that donít possess the vision and instincts he has.

Now hereís where the nuance comes in. Does Nate have a high hockey IQ for a top line star forward? The kind that was drafted 1st overall? No.

It's still not that simple though, because he also has to process the game much faster than almost anyone on the ice, since he plays the game at a speed faster than almost anyone else. If he played at a slower, more deliberate pace, heíd have much more time to process the game.

But when heís flying around, heís got to concentrate on not losing the puck skating that fast, where all the opposition players are, if anyone is gonna catch him with his head down with a big hit, where the goalie is leaving holes to shoot at, where his teammates are, where the passing lanes are. He has to process all these things much quicker than everyone else, and on top of that, heís engaged in a level of creative thinking in order to make plays that arenít expected.

He has less time to process all these things that hockey players have to process, because he's playing faster than everyone. You can see it in him too. He's trying to push the pace. He's trying to overwhelm you with his speed. That's the tool he's relying on most to create offense, because that's his best tool.

So, does someone like Drouin have a better hockey IQ than MacKinnon? Yeah, absolutely, but thatís his biggest strength, and heís one of the best in the world in that area. He also doesnít push the pace quite as much as Nate, so heís not forced to process the game as fast.

I consider Nate to have an average hockey IQ for a top line offensive forward, but heís definitely above average in general terms. Same goes for Duchene.

I think both have issues of trusting their line mates like darthwispy alluded to, but I think that mostly happens when they play with the wrong line mates. When they play with someone they have respect for their skill and IQ, they do trust them, and click well with them.
This is super super accurate IMO.

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06-11-2017, 10:43 PM
  #575
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystic MacK View Post
I always find the issue of MacKinnonís hockey IQ to be more complicated than people realize.

Does he have a high IQ for the average person that plays hockey? Absolutely, it's very high. Is it high for the average pro hockey player? Yes, definitely. Is it high for the average NHLer? Yes, it is. The NHL is littered with 2nd, 3rd, and 4th liners that donít possess the vision and instincts he has.

Now hereís where the nuance comes in. Does Nate have a high hockey IQ for a top line star forward? The kind that was drafted 1st overall? No.

It's still not that simple though, because he also has to process the game much faster than almost anyone on the ice, since he plays the game at a speed faster than almost anyone else. If he played at a slower, more deliberate pace, heíd have much more time to process the game.

But when heís flying around, heís got to concentrate on not losing the puck skating that fast, where all the opposition players are, if anyone is gonna catch him with his head down with a big hit, where the goalie is leaving holes to shoot at, where his teammates are, where the passing lanes are. He has to process all these things much quicker than everyone else, and on top of that, heís engaged in a level of creative thinking in order to make plays that arenít expected.

He has less time to process all these things that hockey players have to process, because he's playing faster than everyone. You can see it in him too. He's trying to push the pace. He's trying to overwhelm you with his speed. That's the tool he's relying on most to create offense, because that's his best tool.

So, does someone like Drouin have a better hockey IQ than MacKinnon? Yeah, absolutely, but thatís his biggest strength, and heís one of the best in the world in that area. He also doesnít push the pace quite as much as Nate, so heís not forced to process the game as fast.

I consider Nate to have an average hockey IQ for a top line offensive forward, but heís definitely above average in general terms. Same goes for Duchene.

I think both have issues of trusting their line mates like darthwispy alluded to, but I think that mostly happens when they play with the wrong line mates. When they play with someone they have respect for their skill and IQ, they do trust them, and click well with them.
Well stated

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