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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

OT: The Orioles/Nationals MASN Dispute

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Old
11-04-2015, 03:24 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Hivemind View Post
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/orioles...2833--mlb.html

Closing arguments were made a few days ago. Just waiting on the written statement now. No timetable for the ruling.
Just came down - Orioles win

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ling-for-nats/

Quote:
A New York State Supreme Court judge on Wednesday tossed out a Major League Baseball arbitration decision that gave the Washington Nationals millions more in annual broadcast rights fees, a significant victory for the Baltimore Orioles-controlled network in the protracted dispute.

In vacating the June 2014 MLB decision, Justice Lawrence K. Marks suggested the Nationals and the Mid-Atlantic Sports Network settle the issue through an independent arbitrator or, if the concerns of impartiality are fixed, that they return to MLB’s arbitration panel.

The immediate impact of the judge’s ruling means the Nationals will receive $40 million in annual TV rights fees from MASN per year, $20 million less than the amount awarded by the MLB panel.

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11-04-2015, 10:52 PM
  #27
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Terrible, corrupt garbage. Reminds why MLB is so much worse than the NHL (even though they can produce a good streaming product).

Can't stand the O's or Baltimore, they love to cry about how damned they are competing with the big market Yankees, but love to brag about they are this St. Louis esque baseball town (because they drew only when the Colts left town and DC had no team), yet they have to illegally control the TV rights of a bigger nearby market.

Hey Baltimore, either you are a great self-sufficient baseball town OR you are a football only town that needs DC or else you can't survive without being a true small market (oh pity you).

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11-09-2015, 08:24 PM
  #28
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-in-masn-case/

Quote:
Five days after a New York judge tossed out an MLB arbitration ruling that would have paid the Nationals more in television rights fees, MLB Commissioner Rob Manfred said the league is still “studying the decision” and “trying to decide exactly what’s next.”

While at the groundbreaking for the Nationals-Astros new spring training site in West Palm Beach on Monday morning, Manfred declined to say much on the case but said: “We are intent on making sure that the agreement that gets the Nationals a fair market value for their TV rights is enforced, and we’ll do whatever is necessary to get that.”

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11-09-2015, 08:39 PM
  #29
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Move the Nats back to Montreal, it's the only way to settle this.

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11-10-2015, 01:10 PM
  #30
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Is their local Comcast Sportsnet affiliate offering?

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12-17-2015, 03:43 PM
  #31
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Sounds like our good 'ole friends Proskauer Rose LLP were at the heart of the decision. From the WaPo piece.

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In his 29-page ruling, Marks had few issues with Selig’s former right-hand man and now-league commissioner Rob Manfred’s involvement with the MLB panel; MLB’s $25 million loan to the Nationals during the dispute to bridge the difference in what the two sides believed Washington’s rights fees should be; or with the panel’s methodology.

He found fault, however, with the Nationals’ choice for legal representation — the New York law firm Proskauer Rose. MASN had questioned the fairness of the firm’s involvement because the firm on other issues also represented MLB, the Nationals and the three teams that made up the arbitration panel: the Pittsburgh Pirates, Tampa Bay Rays and New York Mets.




Marks agreed with MASN’s concerns.

“Had MLB, the arbitrators, the Nationals and/or Proskauer taken some reasonable steps to address petitioners’ concerns about the Nationals’ choice of counsel in the arbitration — or indeed any step at all — the Court might well have been compelled to uphold the arbitral award,” Marks wrote in the ruling.

And from Law360
Quote:
The judge said the Orioles and MASN were met with “an utter lack of concern for fairness” after they raised concerns about Proskauer’s role. Therefore, he said, the arbitration decision couldn’t withstand even the lenient review called for by the Federal Arbitration Act.

“Had MLB, the arbitrators, the Nationals and/or Proskauer taken some reasonable step to address petitioners' concerns about the Nationals' choice of counsel in the arbitration — or indeed any step at all — the court might well have been compelled to uphold the arbitral award under the FAA,” the judge said. “But MASN and the Orioles have established that their well-documented concerns fell on entirely deaf ears.”

According to Judge Marks’ opinion, all three arbitrators were representatives of MLB teams that were represented by Proskauer in separate disputes during the time of the arbitration. In addition, the same Proskauer attorneys who represented the Nationals in the arbitration simultaneously represented “MLB entities” in a range of matters, the judge said.

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Originally Posted by Vamos Rafa View Post
Is their local Comcast Sportsnet affiliate offering?
No. CSN Mid-Atlantic carries the Capitals and Wizards (among other local teams). MASN (Mid-Atlantic Sports Network) carries the Orioles and Nationals (among other local teams).

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12-20-2015, 06:42 PM
  #32
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Hopefully this ends soon with MASN being dissolved, and the Nats and O's being split into their own separate markets-as they belong.

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12-22-2015, 01:22 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by rkhum View Post
Hopefully this ends soon with MASN being dissolved, and the Nats and O's being split into their own separate markets-as they belong.
The only thing remaining is another arbitration between the Orioles/MASN and the Nationals on their valuation. There's zero chance MASN is dissolved.

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12-22-2015, 03:37 PM
  #34
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Hopefully this ends soon with MASN being dissolved, and the Nats and O's being split into their own separate markets-as they belong.
If that happens, wouldn't Nats games be unavailable in Baltimore and the immediate surrounding areas and the same with O's games in DC and the surrounding burbs? Doesn't seem like that would make fans happy as they would also likely be deemed too close to get the games on an MLB package. I don't know the market, but because of the ages of the franchise, I would think there are more O's fans living closer to DC than Baltimore than there are Nats fans who are closer to Baltimore. Thinking more O's fans would get screwed.

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12-23-2015, 01:11 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
If that happens, wouldn't Nats games be unavailable in Baltimore and the immediate surrounding areas and the same with O's games in DC and the surrounding burbs? Doesn't seem like that would make fans happy as they would also likely be deemed too close to get the games on an MLB package. I don't know the market, but because of the ages of the franchise, I would think there are more O's fans living closer to DC than Baltimore than there are Nats fans who are closer to Baltimore. Thinking more O's fans would get screwed.
It's not a risk of happening, so it's pretty much a moot point to discuss.

The concept of Washington and Baltimore as separate TV markets is ludicrous to begin with. The two cities are only 39 miles apart. Even outside of MASN, Comcast Sportsnet Mid-Atlantic covers both Baltimore and DC. While both MASN and CSN-MA are cable content, broadcast station signals from one city reach viewers in the other city. The two cities are in the same television market.

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12-26-2015, 09:27 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Hivemind View Post
It's not a risk of happening, so it's pretty much a moot point to discuss.

The concept of Washington and Baltimore as separate TV markets is ludicrous to begin with. The two cities are only 39 miles apart. Even outside of MASN, Comcast Sportsnet Mid-Atlantic covers both Baltimore and DC. While both MASN and CSN-MA are cable content, broadcast station signals from one city reach viewers in the other city. The two cities are in the same television market.
Washington and Baltimore have their own NBC/FOX/ABC/CBS stations, they are separate markets.

Nats games should be exclusive in DC/Montgomery/PG/NOVA.
O's games should be exclusive in Baltimore City/Co/North of Annapolis/Carrol/Harford County

O's and Nats should split the rest of MD east of Cumberland.
That would be the fair thing to do.
Rest of VA outside NOVA should be Nats.

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12-26-2015, 01:55 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by rkhum View Post
Washington and Baltimore have their own NBC/FOX/ABC/CBS stations, they are separate markets.

Nats games should be exclusive in DC/Montgomery/PG/NOVA.
O's games should be exclusive in Baltimore City/Co/North of Annapolis/Carrol/Harford County

O's and Nats should split the rest of MD east of Cumberland.
That would be the fair thing to do.
Rest of VA outside NOVA should be Nats.
Are all Sunday afternoon Redskins games shown on the Baltimore affiliate of Fox/CBS? Are all Sunday afternoon Ravens games shown on the DC affiliates? Is tonight's Skins-Eagles game available on CBS in Baltimore, tonight? If you live in Baltimore, can you get the DC affiliate via antenna or provider? Same for living in DC and the Baltimore affiliates? If the answer to those questions is, "yes", then they are the same market.

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12-26-2015, 03:16 PM
  #38
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They are separate Nielsen DMAs, so they are not the same media market. I can't talk about terrestrial reception (which is irrelevant as I don't think MASN or CSN can be received that way?) but I don't think the Baltimore stations are available in the cable/satellite/FiOS TV packages in the DMV area.

Mind you, there is *some* sense in treating it as one *sports market* because there's only one NBA and NHL team between the cities and the fan bases of the other sports overlap (primarily in one direction, there's few D.C./Virginia sports fans in MD but many MD sports fans in the DMV).

Splitting the TV deals into the two markets would certainly benefit the Nats significantly as this would significantly reduce the negative impact of O's loyalists in the D.C. market.

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12-26-2015, 06:58 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
They are separate Nielsen DMAs, so they are not the same media market. I can't talk about terrestrial reception (which is irrelevant as I don't think MASN or CSN can be received that way?) but I don't think the Baltimore stations are available in the cable/satellite/FiOS TV packages in the DMV area.

Mind you, there is *some* sense in treating it as one *sports market* because there's only one NBA and NHL team between the cities and the fan bases of the other sports overlap (primarily in one direction, there's few D.C./Virginia sports fans in MD but many MD sports fans in the DMV).

Splitting the TV deals into the two markets would certainly benefit the Nats significantly as this would significantly reduce the negative impact of O's loyalists in the D.C. market.
Do you think O's fans are suddenly going to switch over if the markets are separated and they can't get O's games? i don't. If anything, it would make them hate the Nats even more.

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12-26-2015, 09:42 PM
  #40
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MLB is to blame for this.

Clearly this was a problem waiting to happen

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12-26-2015, 10:18 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
Do you think O's fans are suddenly going to switch over if the markets are separated and they can't get O's games? i don't. If anything, it would make them hate the Nats even more.
With time, it would have an effect, of course. If you're already an O's hardcore fan, you'll probably stick with it, but your kids may not and the casual bandwagon jumper may not.

Of course, people giving up on TV in general in increasing numbers may make this an academic issue soon enough anyway.

However conventionally the question of which games you can watch on TV has of course been a major driver in determining what team people perceived as the local team to follow.

The O's fandom is a remnant of the time when Washington had no team and already IMO the O's fanbase in the area is shrinking. That's of course related to the Nats being a competitive team and the sheer number of newcomers to the area, but also the end of the day it's simply a lot easier for people in the area to get to the old Navy Yard in D.C. than it is to get to Baltimore.

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12-27-2015, 12:59 PM
  #42
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With time, it would have an effect, of course. If you're already an O's hardcore fan, you'll probably stick with it, but your kids may not and the casual bandwagon jumper may not.

Of course, people giving up on TV in general in increasing numbers may make this an academic issue soon enough anyway.

However conventionally the question of which games you can watch on TV has of course been a major driver in determining what team people perceived as the local team to follow.

The O's fandom is a remnant of the time when Washington had no team and already IMO the O's fanbase in the area is shrinking. That's of course related to the Nats being a competitive team and the sheer number of newcomers to the area, but also the end of the day it's simply a lot easier for people in the area to get to the old Navy Yard in D.C. than it is to get to Baltimore.
I agree with what I bolded. With cord-cutting on the rise and the number of illegal streams on the rise, the economics of sports tv-rights are going to change. Teams who own their own networks are one thing, but outside networks are going to eventually start paying less for the rights. In time, more teams will go back to OTA or consumers will just buy league-wide packages without local blackouts.

But, back to the discussion at hand, I think it would be stupid for MLB to divide the market. There are parts of Connecticut (and I believe upstate NY near Albany) where you get Boston and NY RSN's. Parts of Jersey and the Poconos in PA where you get the Philly and NY teams. I'd assume the same can be said about the A's and Giants in Northern California and the Angels and Dodgers in LA and the surrounding areas.

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12-27-2015, 04:48 PM
  #43
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Honestly, not many people in the DC market are rabid O's fans. In NOVA, there are actually more Yankees fans. The Orioles market is greater Baltimore, and properly splitting up MASN between DC and Baltimore would have no impact on the O's core base. Frankly, they should be fortunate they were able to have *some of the spoils of the lucrative DC market and quit acting like they are so damn entitled.
It'd be like Hartford arguing Boston is part of their market. Enough. Deal with it.

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12-29-2015, 12:58 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkhum View Post
Washington and Baltimore have their own NBC/FOX/ABC/CBS stations, they are separate markets.
The broadcast range of these stations covers both cities.


Quote:
Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
Are all Sunday afternoon Redskins games shown on the Baltimore affiliate of Fox/CBS? Are all Sunday afternoon Ravens games shown on the DC affiliates? Is tonight's Skins-Eagles game available on CBS in Baltimore, tonight? If you live in Baltimore, can you get the DC affiliate via antenna or provider? Same for living in DC and the Baltimore affiliates? If the answer to those questions is, "yes", then they are the same market.
Yes.
http://506sports.com/

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Originally Posted by rkhum View Post
It'd be like Hartford arguing Boston is part of their market. Enough. Deal with it.
The distance between Boston and Hartford is 2.5 times greater than the distance between Baltimore and Washington.

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12-30-2015, 02:00 PM
  #45
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They're still separate Designated Market Areas.

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12-31-2015, 11:52 AM
  #46
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Honestly, not many people in the DC market are rabid O's fans. In NOVA, there are actually more Yankees fans. The Orioles market is greater Baltimore, and properly splitting up MASN between DC and Baltimore would have no impact on the O's core base. Frankly, they should be fortunate they were able to have *some of the spoils of the lucrative DC market and quit acting like they are so damn entitled.
It'd be like Hartford arguing Boston is part of their market. Enough. Deal with it.
Not even close, but thanks for playing. Go on mapquest and check the distance between Boston and Harford.

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12-31-2015, 12:59 PM
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Do you think O's fans are suddenly going to switch over if the markets are separated and they can't get O's games? i don't. If anything, it would make them hate the Nats even more.
Most already made said switch 10 years ago when the Nats came into existence.

I remember going to camp with a few guys from VA who were huge O's fans, and next year showed up fully clad in Nats gear. Once people had a team they could really call their own, they jumped over.

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01-29-2016, 10:49 AM
  #48
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Nationals now claiming the lower TV rights payment has impacted their ability to sign free agents, renovate stadium
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ected-by-masn/

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07-13-2017, 12:04 PM
  #49
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N.Y. Appellate Court rules in Nats favor for Rate Fees

About frigging time.
One of the most obscenely crooked deals ever was the 'deal' HOFamer Selig gave Angelo$ to relocate the Nats.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...28d0c#comments

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07-13-2017, 01:07 PM
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The case that refuses to die.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.e4677317dad9

Nats get a 3-2 ruling in their favor that the arbitration should be handled by the RSDC, however the court upholds the 2015 decision to vacate the previous arbitration ruling. Orioles have the right to appeal (and presumably will) to the New York Court of Appeals.

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