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Why do stars today seem to have less longevity than stars of the 80's/90's?

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08-27-2014, 09:46 PM
  #1
Stringer Bell
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Why do stars today seem to have less longevity than stars of the 80's/90's?

Seriously. Most stars these days seem to have a few great years and then a stark drop off. Players like Jokinen, LeCavalier, Richards x2, Jeff Carter, Eric Staal, Rick Nash, Dany Heatley, Jason Spezza, Sedins (to a small extent), Gaborik, Hemsky, Semin, etc.


The 80's and 90's had guys who remained stars pretty much right up until retirement. They overcame rule and game changes and continued to rack points and be the leaders of their teams right into their late 30's. Players like Amonte, Roberts, Steve Thomas, Elias, Leetch, Mogilny, Weight, Tkachuk, Fleury, Nieuwendyk, Lidstrom, Fedorov, Brind'amour, Damphousse, MacInnis, Turgeon, Sundin, Shanahan, Modano, Hull, Robitaille, Gilmour, Oates, Selanne, Recchi, Bourque, Sakic, Jagr, Yzerman, Francis, and Messier.

Almost all of these guys remained top six players until their final year. Players like Nash, Spezza, and Staal are fading quick.

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08-27-2014, 09:48 PM
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kingdok
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Have you done some research? It's interesting, I'll check that out.

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08-27-2014, 09:55 PM
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AfroThunder396
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Depends on each individual players.

Also, lets not confuse guys who peak with one or two good years as stars.

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08-27-2014, 09:57 PM
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I don't think it's that complex. The game is faster, hits are harder, players train harder and push themselves more and more to get better and improve which causes their bodies to break down.

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08-27-2014, 09:59 PM
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Strifee
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Other than this last year Staal has been about as consistent as it gets, and the whole Carolina team basically had a bad year, not just him. I wouldn't put him in a group with those other guys yet.

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08-27-2014, 09:59 PM
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Because Gretky had Dave Semenko

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08-27-2014, 10:02 PM
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Sprague Cleghorn
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Originally Posted by ChaoticOrange View Post
I don't think it's that complex. The game is faster, hits are harder, players train harder and push themselves more and more to get better and improve which causes their bodies to break down.
The other side of the coin is with today's medicine and training regiment players today should be active longer.

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08-27-2014, 10:02 PM
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Rorschach
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Jeff Carter is better the last two years than any other years he's played. He lead the league in goals in 2013 and was a beast in the playoffs in 2013 and 2014.

He works hard in the offseason, like Gary Roberts hard.

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08-27-2014, 10:09 PM
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Eisen
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Originally Posted by Sprague Cleghorn View Post
The other side of the coin is with today's medicine and training regiment players today should be active longer.
or they are more aware of their injuries. and they already made enough cash. i'm sure the average contract today pays more than back in the day. no need to get your bell rung one more time.

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08-27-2014, 10:10 PM
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Stephen
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Originally Posted by Stringer Bell View Post
Seriously. Most stars these days seem to have a few great years and then a stark drop off. Players like Jokinen, LeCavalier, Richards x2, Jeff Carter, Eric Staal, Rick Nash, Dany Heatley, Jason Spezza, Sedins (to a small extent), Gaborik, Hemsky, Semin, etc.


The 80's and 90's had guys who remained stars pretty much right up until retirement. They overcame rule and game changes and continued to rack points and be the leaders of their teams right into their late 30's. Players like Amonte, Roberts, Steve Thomas, Elias, Leetch, Mogilny, Weight, Tkachuk, Fleury, Nieuwendyk, Lidstrom, Fedorov, Brind'amour, Damphousse, MacInnis, Turgeon, Sundin, Shanahan, Modano, Hull, Robitaille, Gilmour, Oates, Selanne, Recchi, Bourque, Sakic, Jagr, Yzerman, Francis, and Messier.

Almost all of these guys remained top six players until their final year. Players like Nash, Spezza, and Staal are fading quick.
Thomas, Roberts, Amonte, Weight, Fleury, Nieuwendyk, Fedorov, Damphousse, Turgeon, Robitaille, Gilmour, Oates, Recchi, Selanne, Messier and Francis all experienced major dips at some point during their careers, but just stuck around a long time.

80s and 90s players like Denis Savard, Hawerchuk, Richer, Nicholls, Muller, Roenick, Kariya, Lindros, Linden, Clark, Kevin Stevens etc. were also guys who suffered massive declines at relatively early ages.

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08-27-2014, 10:13 PM
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King'sPawn
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Bigger, faster, stronger players, with increased awareness of injuries/long term health ramifications would be my guess.

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08-27-2014, 10:16 PM
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JackStraw
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Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
Jeff Carter is better the last two years than any other years he's played. He lead the league in goals in 2013 and was a beast in the playoffs in 2013 and 2014.
Huh?

I think he's been great for the Kings but his best offensive seasons (both goals and points) were with the Flyers. He's never lead the league in goals.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...carteje01.html

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08-27-2014, 10:23 PM
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Eisen
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Originally Posted by JackStraw View Post
Huh?

I think he's been great for the Kings but his best offensive seasons (both goals and points) were with the Flyers. He's never lead the league in goals.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...carteje01.html
perhaps for one game day in 2013

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08-27-2014, 10:32 PM
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scryan
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I think "sports science" didn't really exists in the 80s.

For some reason I am reminded of Adam Carolla talking about his highschool football days where the coaches wouldn't let them drink water during practice because that was bad.

Athletics is more scientific then ever, and with that we see higher, more intense peaks.

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08-27-2014, 10:39 PM
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King'sPawn
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Originally Posted by JackStraw View Post
Huh?

I think he's been great for the Kings but his best offensive seasons (both goals and points) were with the Flyers. He's never lead the league in goals.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...carteje01.html
He didn't lead the league, but he led the Western Conference in goals in 2013.

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08-27-2014, 10:39 PM
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Chrisinroch
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More competition for roster spots

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08-27-2014, 10:43 PM
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Xelebes
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Alfredsson
Jagr
Iginla
Martin St. Louis
Doan
Whitney
Zetterberg
H. Sedin
J. Thornton
Marleau

And the list goes on.

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Old
08-27-2014, 11:21 PM
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The playing field these days is much more level. There are just a lot of great players out there. In that sense there are more 'stars' if you want to call them that. All of the leagues that feed the NHL are better now. Players come into the league better than ever, from defense to forwards and certainly goaltenders. IMO, there is a noticeable talent parity in the league. Don't have all the numbers added up, but it just seems as if there is less and less room for greatness to me. There are spikes, but they always seem to be short lived and based not solely on the individual but on a lot of uncontrollable elements--coaching, linemates, injuries, etc.

In today's game, there is also a LOT more awareness of injury, especially head injuries and their effects on performance. The game is faster, everyone is bigger and stronger and better trained, the equipment keeps improving, and so on. I think some players figure that losing the ability to speak later in life isn't worth hammering in there so hard night in and night out. So things slowly taper off for them or even really drop off, depending on their level of fear and well, injury. Add that to the talent parity that exists and you have a good recipe for a few good years, but not much more. (sounds more and more like the NFL)

Crosby is the face of the NHL, but since his eggs have been scrambled a few times, the guy is a different player under pressure--playoff pressure to be exact. To me, the NHL regular season means almost nothing. The playoffs is a separate season that is far more brutal than any stretch of the regular 82. Sids playoff performance has been different over the last few years, especially when he's been targeted by opposing teams physically early in the series. He's great, maybe the greatest ever, but his head is turning to mush and he knows it. A tentative Sidney Crosby isn't a star anymore, but a kid that does great when there aren't too many reasons to look over his shoulder. I think Sids best days are behind him and fully expect him to find a quiet place to fish and drink beer soon, maybe sooner than anyone realizes.

There is always new blood though, literally. So, the game continues.

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08-27-2014, 11:32 PM
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Lorne Malvo
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You're out of your mind. Advancements in medicine and better conditioning have allowed hockey players to enjoy longer, healthier careers than ever before. Cherry-picking exceptions to the rule (lol at <30 y.o. Jeff carter), while purposefully omitting players like lidstrom, jagr, st. Louis, selanne etc. Who directly oppose your nonsense theory is laughable.

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Old
08-27-2014, 11:49 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaoticOrange View Post
I don't think it's that complex. The game is faster, hits are harder, players train harder and push themselves more and more to get better and improve which causes their bodies to break down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scryan View Post
I think "sports science" didn't really exists in the 80s.

For some reason I am reminded of Adam Carolla talking about his highschool football days where the coaches wouldn't let them drink water during practice because that was bad.

Athletics is more scientific then ever, and with that we see higher, more intense peaks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWilson View Post
The playing field these days is much more level. There are just a lot of great players out there. In that sense there are more 'stars' if you want to call them that. All of the leagues that feed the NHL are better now. Players come into the league better than ever, from defense to forwards and certainly goaltenders. IMO, there is a noticeable talent parity in the league. Don't have all the numbers added up, but it just seems as if there is less and less room for greatness to me. There are spikes, but they always seem to be short lived and based not solely on the individual but on a lot of uncontrollable elements--coaching, linemates, injuries, etc.

In today's game, there is also a LOT more awareness of injury, especially head injuries and their effects on performance. The game is faster, everyone is bigger and stronger and better trained, the equipment keeps improving, and so on. I think some players figure that losing the ability to speak later in life isn't worth hammering in there so hard night in and night out. So things slowly taper off for them or even really drop off, depending on their level of fear and well, injury. Add that to the talent parity that exists and you have a good recipe for a few good years, but not much more. (sounds more and more like the NFL)

Crosby is the face of the NHL, but since his eggs have been scrambled a few times, the guy is a different player under pressure--playoff pressure to be exact. To me, the NHL regular season means almost nothing. The playoffs is a separate season that is far more brutal than any stretch of the regular 82. Sids playoff performance has been different over the last few years, especially when he's been targeted by opposing teams physically early in the series. He's great, maybe the greatest ever, but his head is turning to mush and he knows it. A tentative Sidney Crosby isn't a star anymore, but a kid that does great when there aren't too many reasons to look over his shoulder. I think Sids best days are behind him and fully expect him to find a quiet place to fish and drink beer soon, maybe sooner than anyone realizes.

There is always new blood though, literally. So, the game continues.
All of this answers your question.

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Old
08-28-2014, 04:48 AM
  #21
Sanderson
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Originally Posted by Lorne Malvo View Post
You're out of your mind. Advancements in medicine and better conditioning have allowed hockey players to enjoy longer, healthier careers than ever before. Cherry-picking exceptions to the rule (lol at <30 y.o. Jeff carter), while purposefully omitting players like lidstrom, jagr, st. Louis, selanne etc. Who directly oppose your nonsense theory is laughable.
Um, Lidström, Jagr and Selanne are all mentioned, as part of the 90s players, right were they belong.

But yes, I don't see anything that hints at the theory being true. There have always been players who faded away early, just like there have been players who did well for a long time. I don't really see a trend that suggests otherwise.

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Old
08-28-2014, 05:06 AM
  #22
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Thomas, Roberts, Amonte, Weight, Fleury, Nieuwendyk, Fedorov, Damphousse, Turgeon, Robitaille, Gilmour, Oates, Recchi, Selanne, Messier and Francis all experienced major dips at some point during their careers, but just stuck around a long time.

80s and 90s players like Denis Savard, Hawerchuk, Richer, Nicholls, Muller, Roenick, Kariya, Lindros, Linden, Clark, Kevin Stevens etc. were also guys who suffered massive declines at relatively early ages.
Glad I wasn't the only one that picked up on that. Saw the list start with Amonte, Roberts and Steve Thomas and was scratching my head.

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Old
08-28-2014, 05:14 AM
  #23
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Because Gretky had Dave Semenko
yep this is the correct answer to this whole question.

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Old
08-28-2014, 05:26 AM
  #24
Bergeron47
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MrWilson nailed it.

Far more parity, weak players in today's NHL are far better than weak players back then.
Less fluctuation.

Like if all the weakest players in the 90s were replaced with Tanner Glass, it would be a lot different.

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Old
08-28-2014, 05:41 AM
  #25
Dustin Peener
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Because the depth is better. In the old days the stars could be dominant their whole careers because they were just so much more skilled than the 2nd and 3rd liners, and could continue to be so even after their prime years.

In the modern days the guys you've mentioned were dominant in their prime years as forwards, then when they're no longer in their prime they're not that much more skilled than the guys behind them in the depth chart, and the next generation of prime forwards comes through.

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