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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Worst Moment in Habs History

View Poll Results: What was the Worst Moment
Morenz passes away from a broken heart.. 10 18.87%
Richard riot ignites the city 18 33.96%
Harvey dies after much sorrow beyond the rink 3 5.66%
Former star forced to pimp impotency cure 3 5.66%
Chooch discovers the internet and hits the keyboard 19 35.85%
Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-24-2005, 08:49 PM
  #51
Bring Back Bucky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by octopi
Has no one mention Koivu getting abdominal cancer yet?

Compared to the horror of being associated with cooch, habs fans see this illness as secondary. That's how embarassing he is to the average decent Habs follower

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Old
09-24-2005, 09:00 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Teh toughest day was when :

3. Dryden retired for the first time in 73 (can u say 7 straight?)
2.CHelios for Savard.
1.Roy bye bye

(Did 99 ever pee on Forum ice?)

I would undderstand more of what you were talking about had Philosophy Parliament Pimp been out of hockey for 2 years rather than one, but I'm sure Flyers fans wonder why they have to forfeit a championship when he obviously couldn't lead the Habs to it??

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Old
09-24-2005, 10:21 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by octopi
Has no one mention Koivu getting abdominal cancer yet?
it's bad, but a player getting ill isn't really something I would associate with the franchise...

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Old
09-24-2005, 11:18 PM
  #54
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There is no footage of the incident, unfortunately. But there are a few photos from the Boston newspapers.

Interestingly, this incident has been researched quite a bit in recent years and a number of documentaries and features have been done or are being done. This incident will be covered in the CBC's Hockey - A People's History, which has now been delayed months because of the CBC lockout.

There are very differing opinions on that night. A number of players, officials, writers and others were asked over the years for their description of the events and you wouldn't believe the differing accounts. They either saw it differently or remembered it differently. Reading Bernie Geoffrion's accounts are astounding as he must have been thinking of a different incident. The Boston writer covering the game had the best and most accurate description.

I don't have the time to explain what my views are but they are close to McPhee's
thoughts. I have spoken to people who saw the incident but even their memories are clouded 50 years later.

I will say that I grew up in Toronto where the prevalant view was that Richard was at fault. But as I studied the history of the game over the years, I came to appreciate what Richard had to put up with and my views changed.

The story of Richard's teammates from the bench giving him sticks to renew the stickswinging in absolute nonsense. That also applies to the Bob Bailey incident in Toronto a couple of months prior to the Laycoe incident. The decision by the NHL owners to come down hard on Richard was made after the Bailey incident. So, Richard wasn't judged solely by the Laycoe incident.

I recently found some extraordinary rare footage of the Detroit Red Wings being interviewed the next morning after the riot while changing trains in London. Jack Adams and Gordie Howe were venomous towards Richard. Adams said Richard's actions did not make him a hero to the french-canadian people. (which showed his ignorance). And Gordie Howe said that Richard "should have been stepped on by the league long ago). I found that interesting from a guy who would think nothing of cutting an opposing player from behind with his stick.

You just can't look at the Laycoe incident and the suspension on its own - there is a lot of background stuff to know.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee
Max,I'm not going with a defense, it isn't necessary, it's history that's all. The story is told differently depending on the account you read. I don't know if any tape of the incident exists. Our poster Classic Hockey could probably answer that, and may have actually spoken to people who were there, so obviously his comments would be interesting.

I'll give you my take on the whole thing for what it's worth. Keep in mind, I'm not a historian,sociologist, nor particularly bright. I'm an anglophone so all accounts I've read over the years have been in English, I speak French but I have trouble reading prose. These are impressions,keep in mind.
The Rocket had taken as much abuse as anyone ever had,game after game, and he felt that the officials left him to take a beating. Richard was a proud guy who answered every shot with retaliation or a hat trick,sometimes both. Clarence Campbell was thought to hate Richard for his penchant of evening the score on his own. I think there were many who thought Campbell hated richard for other reasons. There had been pressure over the years to discipline Richard from the Smythe and Norris families,but they had their own agendas. So you have a superstar with a crazy temper,and players going out of their way to exploit it. Gordie Howe was leaving bodies in his wake,and many questioned why there was no outcry there. The game in question, Richard went after Laycoe, I believe in response to earlier hit. The multiple stick swinging thing with the guys on the bench handing him sticks, I've heard about,I've seen the Heritage minute,but I'm not sure I believe it. I'd have to confirm that it was the same night also. Try and picture a guy swinging the stick at a player,goingback to the bench for another one and doing it again, c'mon, that's WWE, I just don't believe it happened like that.
I'm not saying Richard wouldn't have swung a stick, there were actual stick fights in those days, where players would swing toe to toe, the most famous being Eddie Shack and Larry Zeidel. If the Shack/Zeidel thing happened today,both would be gone for at least a season if not for life. I just can't imagine how a guy could break multiple sticks in someone without being stopped or killed. I just don't believe it was the way it's told.
My understanding of his punch at the linesman was that Laycoe was free to swing at Richard while Thompson had richard's arms pinned. Richard then swung at Thompson. I've heard stories of the concussion, that it was an accident etc., I believe in frustration over Laycoe pummeling him, he swung at Thompson.
There was nothing racial in the incident,there were plenty of things over the years, but not that night. The ensuing riot on St.Patrick's day was definitely fueled by social frustration. I think that the crowd saw the suspension as another example of the rich anglo playing seigneurial lord over the French Canadian and decided like the guy in Network, 'we're mad as hell and we're not going to take it anymore'. Some point out this night as a launch point of The Quiet Revolution, but at this point,I'm getting into Quebec social history and attitudes that I don't know that I'm qualified to go much further on. As to shameful, I don't lose any sleep over it. The Rocket to me is the most compelling story or player in hockey history. A guy's the sum of the good and the bad, and that's the Rocket.

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Old
09-24-2005, 11:22 PM
  #55
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I remember like it was yesterday listening to CBC radio at night on my transister radio and cheering like heck for the Hawks to keep scoring goals. I disliked Montreal intensely at that point and I was very happy that night when Montreal was eliminated. I knew though that it was a travesty of justice having watched the Ranger-Detroit game on CBS that afternoon - a number of Red Wings players having hangovers from the night before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowetide
The one I remember is from my childhood. It was the final night of the season 1970, and the Habs were something like two points up on NYR with each playing a game that night. NY had to win that game AND score a bunch of goals to end up with a higher total than the Habs. I think the difference was six goals.

So, Rangers needed to win, Habs lose, and Rangers needed to score a half dozen more goals PLUS whatever Montreal scored in a losing cause that night. Hope I'm clear, but I remember it that way.

Rangers I believe won first and scored 9 goals, and pulled their goalie late to try and score more. Habs got beaten badly by the Hawks, scored 2 goals and lost by one goal in total goals and tied in the standings.

There were all kinds of stories, outrage about depth players being sent out by Detroit and both teams pulling their goalies. It was a mess, but I was pretty excited about it too, I remember Gordie Howe talking about it on television.

That would be the worst I'd say, Habs haven't had too many terrible moments in my lifetime.

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Old
09-25-2005, 08:16 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClassicHockey
There is no footage of the incident, unfortunately. But there are a few photos from the Boston newspapers.

Interestingly, this incident has been researched quite a bit in recent years and a number of documentaries and features have been done or are being done. This incident will be covered in the CBC's Hockey - A People's History, which has now been delayed months because of the CBC lockout.

There are very differing opinions on that night. A number of players, officials, writers and others were asked over the years for their description of the events and you wouldn't believe the differing accounts. They either saw it differently or remembered it differently. Reading Bernie Geoffrion's accounts are astounding as he must have been thinking of a different incident. The Boston writer covering the game had the best and most accurate description.

I don't have the time to explain what my views are but they are close to McPhee's
thoughts. I have spoken to people who saw the incident but even their memories are clouded 50 years later.

I will say that I grew up in Toronto where the prevalant view was that Richard was at fault. But as I studied the history of the game over the years, I came to appreciate what Richard had to put up with and my views changed.

The story of Richard's teammates from the bench giving him sticks to renew the stickswinging in absolute nonsense. That also applies to the Bob Bailey incident in Toronto a couple of months prior to the Laycoe incident. The decision by the NHL owners to come down hard on Richard was made after the Bailey incident. So, Richard wasn't judged solely by the Laycoe incident.

I recently found some extraordinary rare footage of the Detroit Red Wings being interviewed the next morning after the riot while changing trains in London. Jack Adams and Gordie Howe were venomous towards Richard. Adams said Richard's actions did not make him a hero to the french-canadian people. (which showed his ignorance). And Gordie Howe said that Richard "should have been stepped on by the league long ago). I found that interesting from a guy who would think nothing of cutting an opposing player from behind with his stick.

You just can't look at the Laycoe incident and the suspension on its own - there is a lot of background stuff to know.
Thanks. There's no other way to explain it other than sometimes, the Boomer's a screwball. I remember him being interviewed on Russ Jackson's panel shpw {remember that ?] along with Larry Doby.Jackson was discussing what Doby endured as the 1st black ballplayer in the AL, along with breaking into management. The Boomer chimed in with, 'hey Larry,in the summertime,I'm blacker than you.' They sort of went quickly from the serious to the absurd. I suspect that if the entire incident was on film, opinions wouldn't change, legends get stuck in people's minds and stay there.

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Old
09-25-2005, 08:28 AM
  #57
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2. Doug Wickenheiser
3. Denis Savard

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Old
09-25-2005, 10:04 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Bucky
Thanks for yet another post that makes no sense.

With your obsessions with viagara, playboys, hockey players peeing, etc. I think a session with the prison shrink may be in order
youretoo stupid to get it

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Old
09-25-2005, 11:45 AM
  #59
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Cooch, Bring Back Bucky could you please stop ruining threads by this childish garbage. If you don't like what the other person has to say put them on your ignore list and go on with your day.

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Old
09-25-2005, 11:49 AM
  #60
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I haven't read the whole thread. How about the Spanish influenza in 1919 that killed Joe Hall?

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Old
09-25-2005, 02:36 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Edison
Cooch, Bring Back Bucky could you please stop ruining threads by this childish garbage. If you don't like what the other person has to say put them on your ignore list and go on with your day.

I started the thread, so if you don't like it, feel free to put me on your ignore list or not read it. Thanks

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Old
09-25-2005, 06:46 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Bucky
I started the thread, so if you don't like it, feel free to put me on your ignore list or not read it. Thanks
You started a thread, that doesn't give you the right to bicker about some pointless arguement though. I mean come on grow up and lets move on. You don't agree with him, he doesn't agree with you.

Simple as that, we don't need to be reminded every single thread.

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Old
09-26-2005, 01:01 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez
it's bad, but a player getting ill isn't really something I would associate with the franchise...
Well he was our #1 center at the time (and still is) and had to compel crap like Juha Lind (no that was the year before) to stay off his line, plus this was at the wake of the terrible 00-01 campaign when literally watching the canadiens was akin to being strapped to a feudal torture device, clearly his illness was somewhat epoch defining, he was the star attraction (remember, this was before theo's hart trophy season). Just because it didn't happen in 1931 doesn't make it any less significant. that being said I wouldn't rank it in the top 5 of worst moments.

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09-26-2005, 01:46 PM
  #64
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When Quebec eliminated them in the early 80's [forget the year], I was at the game and making my way back to my seat when Hunter tucked in the game winner in ot. It was so fast, everyone was in shock. We never got back to the seats, just turned and left. I don't count that one because I still don't believe it happened. Denial's ok with me.[/QUOTE]

Mr. McPhee I too was at the game and was in a pickle as the game got closer to the end. I believe Tremblay tied it up, but I am getting old and what do I remember. But I had to get to the bus station to take Voyageur back to Ottawa so I was praying for an early goal so I could make the bus. Not exactly the way I planned it. That was a long lonely ride back to Ottawa that night.

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Old
09-26-2005, 02:25 PM
  #65
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A big part of the the riots was the fact that Campbell arrived late and in full view of everybody in the crowd. Many have speculated he was doing it to show up Richard, others that he was trying to show he wasn't afraid (he had received a number of death threats since the decision). Either way he was a spark in the powder keg that blew it all wide open.

This is easily the worst thing that ever happened to the Habs because not only did it show a bad image of the team, but the city and the province as well and it certainly had an effect on language relations in the city too. It far transcends anything a single player or manger has ever done to say nothing of a poster who was put on my ignore list after his third post.

Wickenheiser is a tragedy. He bled Canadiens bleu, blanc et rouge, and was absolutely thrilled to be drafted there. Every other team in the league was drooling over Wick before the draft. But he had a slow start as many Hab rookies do (Richard, Beliveau and Lafleur all did as well) but he never got the benefit of the doubt. It just got worse and worse and eventually he had to ask for a trade. I was actually kind of happy for him when one night near the end of the season when Montreal went to St. Louis and Wick got the winner.

The fact that he later died of cancer but forever lives on as a wasted pick still bugs me. He worked hard, never complained, never played selfish and did his best to fit in. But he wasn't flashy in an age where that was everything. If you want a modern version of Doug Wickenheiser look no further than Kyle Chipchura.

I have always been a Hab fan and proud of it. But the treatment that was giving to Doug Wickenheiser is among the handful of times where I have not been proud to be a Hab fan, because I felt and still feel thatit was unwarranted.

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Old
09-26-2005, 02:54 PM
  #66
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Seriously, IMO it's probably what has become of the Forum today. I read something about it now how it's been turned into this arcade/entertainment complex called the Pepsi Forum. That's just horribly sad, easily the worst thing i've ever heard of happening in that franchises history.

I like having the HHOF in Toronto, but I wouldn't have objected one bit if they'd moved it to the Forum in 1996.

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09-26-2005, 03:37 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malefic74
A big part of the the riots was the fact that Campbell arrived late and in full view of everybody in the crowd. Many have speculated he was doing it to show up Richard, others that he was trying to show he wasn't afraid (he had received a number of death threats since the decision). Either way he was a spark in the powder keg that blew it all wide open.

This is easily the worst thing that ever happened to the Habs because not only did it show a bad image of the team, but the city and the province as well and it certainly had an effect on language relations in the city too. It far transcends anything a single player or manger has ever done to say nothing of a poster who was put on my ignore list after his third post.

Wickenheiser is a tragedy. He bled Canadiens bleu, blanc et rouge, and was absolutely thrilled to be drafted there. Every other team in the league was drooling over Wick before the draft. But he had a slow start as many Hab rookies do (Richard, Beliveau and Lafleur all did as well) but he never got the benefit of the doubt. It just got worse and worse and eventually he had to ask for a trade. I was actually kind of happy for him when one night near the end of the season when Montreal went to St. Louis and Wick got the winner.

The fact that he later died of cancer but forever lives on as a wasted pick still bugs me. He worked hard, never complained, never played selfish and did his best to fit in. But he wasn't flashy in an age where that was everything. If you want a modern version of Doug Wickenheiser look no further than Kyle Chipchura.

I have always been a Hab fan and proud of it. But the treatment that was giving to Doug Wickenheiser is among the handful of times where I have not been proud to be a Hab fan, because I felt and still feel thatit was unwarranted.
You summarize the Wickenheiser situation well. Remember about a week into his rookie year, they benched him against Chicago because they were afraid to let Savard show him up. Wrong player at the wrong time I guess, 10 years earlier, he would have been a prototype center. Mtl. envisioned a big guy in the slot,when the league sort of went run and gun.

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Old
09-26-2005, 05:11 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee
You summarize the Wickenheiser situation well. Remember about a week into his rookie year, they benched him against Chicago because they were afraid to let Savard show him up. Wrong player at the wrong time I guess, 10 years earlier, he would have been a prototype center. Mtl. envisioned a big guy in the slot,when the league sort of went run and gun.
10 years later he is a perfect fit. Just absolutely the wrong time, but I do believe he was mishandled too, or he could have at least been at the same level as Kirk Muller or Trevor Linden. But once his confidence was gone, he was never the same player. The team then was eerily similar to now actually. All the skill guys on the team were under 6' and 185 lbs. Lafleur and Shutt were the biggest, and fighting for position wasn't their strong suit. Others like Larouche and Mondou also played the perimeter game. The only other forward with size Montreal had was Gainey. 10 years earlier he is a perfect fit.

Wick was close to 6'2 and played between 195 and 200 lbs and was very strong on his skates. Montreal figured they were going to get pushed around based on the style of play in the Wales conference then. Drafting Savard would give them more of what they already had. And no one could have predicted the rapid decline of Lafleur or the trade demands of Larouche. They didn't need more small scorers. They needed a big confident centre who could handle himself and pitch in goals when needed.

Savard thrived in the Chicago because that entire conference was trying to keep up with Edmonton and NOBODY played defense. It was no surprise to me that Savard took off the way he did, but it was exceedingly unfair to hold Wick to the same standards when he was an entirely different kind of player. And throwing him to the wolves as a rookie was totally unnecessary. The Habs had finished first in their division the year before and would again with very modest contributions from Wickenheiser. So why the urgency to play him? It makes no sense. I believe this entire episode is what ultimately led to the Canadiens habitual practice of holding players in the minors for longer than most teams.

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