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Old
10-07-2005, 02:27 PM
  #76
William H Bonney
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodie562
The WHOLE team was garbage (except for Garon). you cant blame him for that game. should they have sat Frolov, i recall a lot of people saying he didnt play all that well on wed. too?
I didn't blame him for the game. Yes, a majority of the team was garbage, but Mike showed nothing, not even in the first period when the team wasn't garbage. I'm not saying he won't be, or doesn't have the potential to be a good player, I just think he'll be the odd man out in LA.

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10-07-2005, 02:56 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by jt
Oops...I hope I'm allowed to post again...Osprey? (now THAT was a personal pseudo-slight)
I wish you wouldn't, but, if you can avoid directing patronizing and sarcastic remarks at every fellow fan who says something that you don't like, then, yes, you may post again.

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10-07-2005, 03:01 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by PSP
I DID intend it. I think Rosa didn't get a fair shot with the Kings.

He led the AHL in scoring in 2003/4 and played in a TOTAL of 2 games for the Kings. He had a goal and an assist in those games before being sent back when Tripp was activated.

Last season he led his team (Moscow Dynamo) in scoring while being top 6 in the Russian Elite League in goals, assists, and points - outscoring players like Frolov, Kovulchuk, Datsuyk, Jagr, Sykora, etc.

IMO, Rosa has demonstrated enough skill at several different levels to deserve a decent shot (at least 10 games) with an NHL team. During the Andy Murray era, he was given 3 games in 99/00, 2 games in 2002/3, and 2 games in 2003/4. Seeing that he wasn't going to get a fair shot, he chose to play in Russia the last 2 seasons.

and Pavel Rosa proved the Kings wrong by doing what?

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10-07-2005, 03:05 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Osprey
I wish you wouldn't, but, if you can avoid directing patronizing and sarcastic remarks at every fellow fan who says something that you don't like, then, yes, you may post again.
Hey you two, get a room!

 
Old
10-07-2005, 03:08 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by kingsjohn
Hey you two, get a room!
Last time you said that to someone, Jesus took it upon himself to actually book a room for us at the Pasadena Hilton... He was a tad disappointed when I didn't show. Hasn't spoken to me since...

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10-07-2005, 03:11 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by kingsjohn
Hey you two, get a room!
I'm not that easy. Maybe jt is ... kidding!

I demand to be wined and dined first, preferably at "some cozy restaurant... over a nice glass of chardonnay"

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10-07-2005, 03:13 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Osprey
I'm not that easy. Maybe jt is kidding!

I demand to be wined and dined, first, preferably at "some cozy restaurant... over a nice glass of chardonnay"

Sizzler!

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Old
10-07-2005, 03:16 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Osprey
I'm not that easy. Maybe jt is ... kidding!

I demand to be wined and dined first, preferably at "some cozy restaurant... over a nice glass of chardonnay"
And the enigma that is Osprey continues to unravel

 
Old
10-07-2005, 03:25 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by bland
29 teams had the opportunity to pick him up for NOTHING, and no one bit.

I'm pretty sure that you can't blame Murray for that one.

When it comes down to it, neither Cammy or Rosa's size had anything to do with their situations. Rosa didn't have the desire to improve his weaknesses, and the jury is out on young Mike. My preference would be to keep him here and ask him to make an honest effort to go to work.

If he doesn't pan out, it is his own fault. By now, do you seriously doubt that nobody in the organization has given him a clear indication of what he needs to do play every day in the NHL? I, for one, can't believe that management is banking on Cammy learning solely by osmosis. And even if that is true, why would they single Cammalleri out? The simple reason is that both Cammalleri and Lehoux have the talent to play in the NHL, but neither has figured out how to capitalize on their emmense skills, be it on or off of the ice.
Eh? Personal responsibility? What are you saying? That players need to take responsibility for their play and growth as a player?

Look, it'd be different if we were talking about the Kings 8+ yrs ago when they barely had a minor league team. But TODAY's prospects have all the tools they need.

People who want prospects coddled and protected and given "the benefit of the doubt" and allowed to play "their" games instead of having to play the system the team plays (and that the coach tells them) need to read up on how successful coaches became successful. Does anyone here really think Toe Blake, Scotty Bowman, Jacques Lemaire, Ken Hitchcock or Mike Keenan let some snotty nosed 23 year old play "his game"? No...and yet they all won Cups. How is that possible if the only way to be a good coach is to let some 23 year old AHLer run the team?

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10-07-2005, 03:35 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by swinginutter
You're right.....I won't dispute that he was invisible. I agree completely. But it's the same old story with this guy. He plays a bad game and we all have something to talk about the next day as he's riding pine. He's getting picked out, and if people can't see that.........than that's what I call bias.
Geea, were you blowing a gasket when AM called out Frolov and benched him in past seasons? It is so apparent when you see what a washout AFro has become that AM has no idea what to do with young players.

Cammy doesn't get the same rules as everyone else, because he is small and can't fulfill any other role than a scorer. If he doesn't produce out there, (ie. he is invisible), then he isn't doing anything, since he can't hit and he doesn't play much defence. If Cammy doesn't figure it out, then he should sit - if he can't figure it out before Christmas, he will get sent out of town.

Coaching isn't about be fair to everyone, it's about getting the most out of your players. It's the NHL, coaches don't have the luxury of letting players figure it out on the ice. If Cammy doesn't get it on the ice, there is no reason that he should be given a free pass to skate a shift.

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10-07-2005, 03:50 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Face Wash
Last time you said that to someone, Jesus took it upon himself to actually book a room for us at the Pasadena Hilton... He was a tad disappointed when I didn't show. Hasn't spoken to me since...
Lies! all lies!!!!

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Old
10-07-2005, 03:50 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Face Wash
Last time you said that to someone, Jesus took it upon himself to actually book a room for us at the Pasadena Hilton... He was a tad disappointed when I didn't show. Hasn't spoken to me since...
Can you blame him?

 
Old
10-07-2005, 03:54 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSP
I DID intend it. I think Rosa didn't get a fair shot with the Kings.

He led the AHL in scoring in 2003/4 and played in a TOTAL of 2 games for the Kings. He had a goal and an assist in those games before being sent back when Tripp was activated.

Last season he led his team (Moscow Dynamo) in scoring while being top 6 in the Russian Elite League in goals, assists, and points - outscoring players like Frolov, Kovulchuk, Datsuyk, Jagr, Sykora, etc.

IMO, Rosa has demonstrated enough skill at several different levels to deserve a decent shot (at least 10 games) with an NHL team. During the Andy Murray era, he was given 3 games in 99/00, 2 games in 2002/3, and 2 games in 2003/4. Seeing that he wasn't going to get a fair shot, he chose to play in Russia the last 2 seasons.

forget about it Mr. P... i too tried pulling the Pavel Rosa card, and was essentially laughed at.

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Old
10-07-2005, 03:57 PM
  #89
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So, explain to me why Pavel Rosa still doesn't have an NHL contract?

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Old
10-07-2005, 04:06 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skolgoar
Geea, were you blowing a gasket when AM called out Frolov and benched him in past seasons? It is so apparent when you see what a washout AFro has become that AM has no idea what to do with young players.

Great point. Frolov was a young kid that so many of you said was going to be ruined because AM held him responsible for his play. How did he turn out?

Why do you people keep focusing on Cammy? The guy was always a long-shot player to make and stay in the NHL.

AM gives young kids more minutes if they have shown they deserve them not because they or you think they should have them or because some web site demands it.

This is the NHL it doesn't matter how good you play in the RSL or the AHL. You have to bring you game to that next level to stay a true NHL hockey player. AM holds you accountable beyond simply looking at a stat line. That’s why guys like Brown, Gleason, and Frolov are starting to shine because they are forced and helped to become better hockey players not because they are destined to be great.

Talent is only the beginning you still have to work to be great.

And frankly cammy has not shown he has NHL talent yet… Having offense with nothing else does not a hockey player make…. It’s not like the guy is Pavel Bure.

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10-07-2005, 04:09 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wabwat
forget about it Mr. P... i too tried pulling the Pavel Rosa card, and was essentially laughed at.

Nothing personally. But you should be.

Rosa is kind of like the white whale to kings hockey fans. I think its because he was the "star" prospect during a period of time when we had nothing even close to being a true NHL player in he pipeline. So people just looked to him in comparison to the other kings "prospects" and not to reality.

Its nice to be the big fish in a crappy little pond. But you still have to know you’re a little fish in the real world.

Rosa was always a little fish with way to much hype around him…


I think Cammy is better then he ever way by the way. But Cammy still has to learn to be a hockey player not just a guy with alot of skill.

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Old
10-07-2005, 04:16 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust
So, explain to me why Pavel Rosa still doesn't have an NHL contract?
do the kings own his rights? i alwasy thought they owned him for like an additional year or so.

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Old
10-07-2005, 04:17 PM
  #93
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The Kings no longer own Pavel Rosa's rights. I believe they lost it last year when they elected not to qualify him.

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Old
10-07-2005, 04:18 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by KingPurpleDinosaur
do the kings own his rights? i alwasy thought they owned him for like an additional year or so.
Don't think we do after we didn't sign him.

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Old
10-07-2005, 04:19 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by wabwat
forget about it Mr. P... i too tried pulling the Pavel Rosa card, and was essentially laughed at.
If you're pulling out the Pavel Rosa "card" you should expect to be laughed at. I don't recall other NHL teams clamoring for his services. There's a reason that this guy isn't in the NHL with any team. You think the Kings would've just let him walk if they could've gotten anything for him? Think 29 other teams' scouting departments, who scour the ends of the earth for hockey talent, would have just let him walk away because they didn't know he existed since he was so well hidden in Manchester?

It is quite remarkable that people with no other qualifications other than having watched hockey are better at evaluating hockey talent than hundreds of scouts whose full-time jobs for the last few decades has been to evaluate hockey talent. Someone should do a study to learn the causes of this remarkable phenomenon so that this resource isn't wasted. We could get brain surgeons and rocket scientists by letting them just watch a few surgeries, or having them watch the shuttle take off. Imagine all the time and money that will be saved bypassing all that time-consuming and expensive education and training.

As for people who are saying that AM is not playing Cammalleri because of some "personal animosity" - tell me you're kidding. Seriously, do you believe an NHL coach, who's job is unquestionably on the line this season is going to do anything to jeopardize his chances to continue being an NHL coach by not putting the most successful line up he can on the ice because he doesn't "like" the player? He will put lines on the ice which he believes will give him the best chance of winning, night in and night out, period. He'd put Satan (no, not Miroslav) in the line up if it would help him win.

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Old
10-07-2005, 04:24 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Osprey
On top of that, Cammalleri wasn't simply replaced with another player. Instead, Murray completely shuffled the lines. Maybe some of you noticed that Roenick played most of the night with Brown and Avery on his wing. Those are both players that JR had never played with before.
Gee, you don't think that this had anything to do with the fact that Roenick was likely going to play most of his shifts against the guy that had him on the ice looking at tweety birds, do ya? Putting Roenick on a line with two physical guys meant that Gauthier had to keep his head up looking to get nailed, rather than skating around headhunting. Frolov is a physical player, but he isn't going to scare anyone with his hits, and Cammy, well, let's just say that Jason Blake was tougher than Cammy. That said, both Avery and Brown are skilled enough to also present an offensive threat, and giving them a chance to skate with Roenick would be a great experience for them. As far as never "played with before", do you watch hockey? The guys out there change on the fly. There are plenty of times when lines get mixed up out there on line changes. One of the things that they do in practice is to make sure that all of the guys get plenty of reps with all of the other players, just in case some odd combination ends up getting stuck out on the ice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osprey
Does it not bother anyone else that Murray hit the panic button after one game and threw out the preseason by juggling lines? Why experiment (so early in the regular season, no less) with new line combos when they're not even necessary?
Were there consistent lines in the preseason? With the injuries and the auditioning players, I saw a lot of juggling of lines during the preseason as well. Considering that JR didn't even play in half the games, not juggling the lines means that JR sits. Besides, if you don't hit the panic button after taking a 4-0 lead and then giving up 5 straight goals in a regular season game, I am not sure when you should.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osprey
The difference between the first two games is that last night was a playoff team and tonight was a non-playoff team. The fact that it's only 2 games is not discouraging me from reading into that.
Actually the difference between the first two games was that the Dallas game was against a veteran team with much of the same core as two years ago, while the game against the Yotes was against a largely untested, young group.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Osprey
We've all been here before. It's not just that it's just the 2nd game of the season. It's that the 6th season under Murray is starting out with the same coaching games (line juggling, healthy scratches, mind games) that the other 5 started with.
With 23 on the roster and only 20 in a game, I am not sure how you avoid healthy scratches. Perhaps you have learned how to fill out roster cards from Gretzky?

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Old
10-07-2005, 04:36 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by santiclaws
If you're pulling out the Pavel Rosa "card" you should expect to be laughed at. I don't recall other NHL teams clamoring for his services. There's a reason that this guy isn't in the NHL with any team. You think the Kings would've just let him walk if they could've gotten anything for him? Think 29 other teams' scouting departments, who scour the ends of the earth for hockey talent, would have just let him walk away because they didn't know he existed since he was so well hidden in Manchester?

It is quite remarkable that people with no other qualifications other than having watched hockey are better at evaluating hockey talent than hundreds of scouts whose full-time jobs for the last few decades has been to evaluate hockey talent. Someone should do a study to learn the causes of this remarkable phenomenon so that this resource isn't wasted. We could get brain surgeons and rocket scientists by letting them just watch a few surgeries, or having them watch the shuttle take off. Imagine all the time and money that will be saved bypassing all that time-consuming and expensive education and training.

As for people who are saying that AM is not playing Cammalleri because of some "personal animosity" - tell me you're kidding. Seriously, do you believe an NHL coach, who's job is unquestionably on the line this season is going to do anything to jeopardize his chances to continue being an NHL coach by not putting the most successful line up he can on the ice because he doesn't "like" the player? He will put lines on the ice which he believes will give him the best chance of winning, night in and night out, period. He'd put Satan (no, not Miroslav) in the line up if it would help him win.
on the contrary... i've used the Rosa argument both for AND against Cammalleri. my problem is that Rosa DID NOT get the "shot" that everyone seems to think he had, even though we ALL KNEW he'd never make it.

seeing as their resepctive careers have practically MIRRORED one another's, i ask... WHAT MAKES CAMMALLERI ANY DIFFERENT?

nothing!

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Old
10-07-2005, 04:40 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by wabwat
on the contrary... i've used the Rosa argument both for AND against Cammalleri. my problem is that Rosa DID NOT get the "shot" that everyone seems to think he had, even though we ALL KNEW he'd never make it.

seeing as their resepctive careers have practically MIRRORED one another's, i ask... WHAT MAKES CAMMALLERI ANY DIFFERENT?

nothing!
Rosa was given more than a half a season on continous time in the NHL to prove himself( on scoring lines)
Cammy has only been given short streches of time

 
Old
10-07-2005, 04:42 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by santiclaws
He will put lines on the ice which he believes will give him the best chance of winning, night in and night out, period. He'd put Satan (no, not Miroslav) in the line up if it would help him win.
that made me laugh. haha, great line.


anyways, i do see wat cammy fans are talking about though. it does seem that smaller skilled players who's forte may not be working hard do tend to take a seat over those who do work hard. but i think its just preference in AM's style. sure some people dont work as hard and contribute thorugh skill and just being in the right position in the right time, but its pretty obvious AM would rather rely on the grit then that of the skilled. i really wonder how long it'll take for bure to be sat.

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Old
10-07-2005, 04:54 PM
  #100
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Ugh.. enough about Rosa. When he's playing in the NHL again, call me.

Back to Cammy. He was benched last night because he was wholly ineffective in Dallas, and part of the problem, not the solution. Hence, he had no chance last ngiht to be part of either.

It's an easy conversation AM has with Cammy: "When you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem - quit being part of the ****ing problem!"

I'm expecting the Cammy we saw in the pre-season the next time he plays. I'm sure AM is expecting it too.

- T

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