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Name your top five players off all time (Richard fans, skip this one out)

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Old
10-11-2005, 02:45 AM
  #26
EagleBelfour
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If this thread would want to be serious, they would have to put same ERA players together ... Forget comparing Joe Malone to Rocket Richard to Sidney Crosby ... Impossible!

Like from start of hockey to 1940 (Hainsworth, Malone, Morenz, Dennedy, Nighbor, Harrison etc ...)

The 1940 to 1970 (Richard, Beliveau, Plante, Sawchuk, Howe, Lindsay, Moore etc ...)

And then from 1970 to now (Dryden, Roy, Robinson, Gretzky, Orr, Lafleur, Lemieux etc ...)

*BTW, I think guys like Kovalchuk, Iginla, Nash, Crosby, Luongo and Ovechkin will have to be classified in another category, in 20 years*

Also, comparing goalies to forward in a list is just stupid ... comparing forward to defenseman is pretty difficult but you can compared IMO.

Since I'm 18, it's pretty tough to dress a list prior to 1970.

Top 5 *Skater*(1970 to now ...)

Bobby Orr
Wayne Gretzky
Mario Lemieux
Guy Lafleur (Bobby Hull would have been in fourth place but I think he had played his best years in the '60)
Phil Esposito

Top 5 *Goalkeeper* (1970 to now ...)

Patrick Roy
Vladislav Tretiak
Martin Brodeur
Dominik Hasek
Bernard Parent


That's my opinion

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10-11-2005, 07:07 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Dick moved to Montreal from Saskatchewan to attend McGill in 1951. I doubt he saw the Rocket very many times until 1955 the last 5 years of his career. He may have been a scorer at the Forum after graduating. Red Fisher same thing - I believe he started in 1955 also.
"The first time I saw Maurice Richard play was at the Forum, December 27, 1942."

""On December 28, 1944, the coach's kid, now twelve years old, was watching the game while sitting at the end of the Canadiens' bench when the Rocket set a record by registering eight points - five goals and three assists - as the Canadiens whipped Detroit 9-1."

Dick Irvin, My 26 Stanley Cups

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Old
10-11-2005, 07:59 AM
  #28
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Wayne Gretzky
Mario Lemieux
Gordie Howe
Maurice Richard
Marcel Dionne

Ray Bourque
Bobby Orr
Larry Robinson
Dennis Potvin
Nik Lidstrom

Dominic Hasek
Patrick Roy
Vladislav Tretiak
Martin Brodeur
Bernie Parent

 
Old
10-11-2005, 12:40 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
In order, my all-time top five are Orr, Howe, Gretzky, Lemieux and Richard.

Orr, for my money, is the best player to put on skates. There isn't anything he couldn't, or didn't, do. Great offensively, great defensively, could hit and fight. Howe and Gretzky had better careers thanks to their longevity, but Orr was the better player at his peak.

Howe was a better all-round player than Gretzky, that's why I have him at No. 2. Gretzky is the greatest offensive player in the history of the game, and far and away the smartest player ever.

Lemieux is the most physically blessed player ever. His accomplishments are enough to get him into the top 5.

Richard, for my money, is the greatest goal scorer ever, but what gets him into my top five are his clutch play and his intensity. Always there when it counted, and everyone talks about the look in his eyes. Beliveau was more talented and was a better leader, but I'll give it to Richard for his many clutch performances, the intensity and the physical play. (One of seven players to lead his team in goals, assists, points and PIMs in the same season).
What year did he do this?

I know that during the time Beliveau won his first 5 cups (his first 5 of 10 which was also Rocket's last 5 of 8), from 1955-56 to 1959-60, Beliveau lead Montreal overall (5 year totals) in goals ,assists, points and PIM.

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10-11-2005, 01:12 PM
  #30
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I have been a fan of hockey since 1980-81 so I will only pick the players I remember watching and liking.

1) Mark Messier
2) Cam Neely
3) Rick Tocchet
4) Mike Bossy
5) Rick Nash

Yes these are my favorites and I know that it isn't based on who was the best player. I just liked watching these guys play.

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10-11-2005, 03:55 PM
  #31
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Well I guess there isnt as much Beliveau bashing here as I thought. I still have him rated ahead of Richard as the #5 player. Remember Beliveau as well had over 500 goals in his career. And the year he retired in '71 he had 22 points in the playoffs. And he registered 76 points that year as well. Even at 40 he was still capable of scoring.

Yeah to me Richard wasnt as big of a cornerstone as Beliveau was in those 5 straight Cups. No disrespect to Richard I know he was older at that time but until '56 Richard only had won 3 Cups. That just bothers me about him for some reason.

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10-12-2005, 01:00 AM
  #32
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The top 5 all-time:

1.) Orr (Greatest player of all-time)
2.) Gretzky (greatest OFFENSIVE player of all-time)
3.) Howe
4.) Maurice Richard
5.) Yzerman or Bossy

Lemieux would be about #15 for me. Great talent, horrible heart. Behind Coffey, Messier, Beliveau, Sawchuk, Bourque, Shore, Harvey, Bobby Hull.

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10-12-2005, 01:40 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosbyfan
What year did he do this?

I know that during the time Beliveau won his first 5 cups (his first 5 of 10 which was also Rocket's last 5 of 8), from 1955-56 to 1959-60, Beliveau lead Montreal overall (5 year totals) in goals ,assists, points and PIM.
1952-53. Led the Habs with 28 goals, 33 assists, 61 points and 112 PIMs. Stan Smyl did it one year for the Canucks, Thornton did it in 1999-2000 for the Bruins, and I'm not sure of the other four.

You're not going to get a lot of Beliveau bashing, at least not from those who know the game. Impossible to bash. One of the most talented players ever, a graceful skater and a legendary combination of size, speed and skill. The fact that he was a gifted leader and an all out class act (was in the running for the Canadian governor general's award in 1995) are the icing on the cake.

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10-12-2005, 02:27 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiggs 10
The top 5 all-time:

1.) Orr (Greatest player of all-time)
2.) Gretzky (greatest OFFENSIVE player of all-time)
3.) Howe
4.) Maurice Richard
5.) Yzerman or Bossy

Lemieux would be about #15 for me. Great talent, horrible heart. Behind Coffey, Messier, Beliveau, Sawchuk, Bourque, Shore, Harvey, Bobby Hull.
No mention of Lafleur? By the way I dont get the horrible hart part for Lemieux... anyone who had a horrible heart wouldn't have come back from cancer to play hockey and lead the league in scoring. Also anyone with a horrible heart wouldn't have saved a franchise the way he did.

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10-12-2005, 12:04 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil
Here is my list of players of the best 5 players of all time. There is one glarign omission and just wondering what people think of it.

Gretzky
Orr
Howe
Lemieux
Beliveau

Okay now you can flame away at me. Now why did I take Beliveau over Richard. Well two reasons. First off I love Richard and he is likely to be #6 on my list. He did lead the league in goals 5 times in his career but Bobby Hull led it seven times. Also Richard never led the league in points. Yes in '47 and '55 he was very close, but no Art Ross Trophies and only one Hart Trophy in '47 dont make me want to put him #5 overall. Sure he was clutch, but so was Beliveau. Beliveau won the first Conn Smythe Trophy in '65 and most likely would have won it in '56 if it was invented.
Beliveau has two Hart Trophies, one Art Ross and almost as many post season all-star selections as Richard.

Also worth noting Richard won 8 Cups and Beliveau ten. not much of a difference, but from '56-60 the Habs wouldnt have won those Cups wihtout Beliveau, since Richard wasnt the better playr of the two by then. Not taking anything away form Richard since he is arguably #6 on my list but I like Beliveau better.

Okay tell me why I'm wrong, but dont riot!
You're right, and I love your points, even if I'm a Richard fan. I wouldn't put him no. 6.

That said, Richard still own the NHL career record for the most overtime goal in playoffs, while playing in a area where 8 wins were enough to win the cup... That says a lot. Only one game to play in the playoffs? My first pick is Richard.

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10-12-2005, 12:17 PM
  #36
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Mario Lemieux
Ron Francis
Paul Coffey
Denis Savard
Peter Stastny

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Old
10-12-2005, 02:32 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
1952-53. Led the Habs with 28 goals, 33 assists, 61 points and 112 PIMs. Stan Smyl did it one year for the Canucks, Thornton did it in 1999-2000 for the Bruins, and I'm not sure of the other four.

You're not going to get a lot of Beliveau bashing, at least not from those who know the game. Impossible to bash. One of the most talented players ever, a graceful skater and a legendary combination of size, speed and skill. The fact that he was a gifted leader and an all out class act (was in the running for the Canadian governor general's award in 1995) are the icing on the cake.
Beliveau may have been one of the other 4. In 1956-57 he lead in all categories although he was tied for goals with Richard.

Not sure about the Award but I think he was offered the Governor General position by both the Liberals and Conservatives, but turned them down due to family commitments.

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10-12-2005, 04:51 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LePoche69
You're right, and I love your points, even if I'm a Richard fan. I wouldn't put him no. 6.

That said, Richard still own the NHL career record for the most overtime goal in playoffs, while playing in a area where 8 wins were enough to win the cup... That says a lot. Only one game to play in the playoffs? My first pick is Richard.
Well said, If I could pick one guy to build a team around it would be Beliveau, but if I had to pick for a one game showdown it would be Richard.

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Old
10-12-2005, 04:57 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by kruezer
Well said, If I could pick one guy to build a team around it would be Beliveau, but if I had to pick for a one game showdown it would be Richard.
And for a thirty year run it would have to be Gordie!

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10-12-2005, 05:43 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Crosbyfan
And for a thirty year run it would have to be Gordie!
Fair enough, I'd like to point out that the previous post I made was purely in regards to the Beliveau/Richard debate and not including other players. Just thought I'd clear that up.

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10-12-2005, 06:13 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by kruezer
Fair enough, I'd like to point out that the previous post I made was purely in regards to the Beliveau/Richard debate and not including other players. Just thought I'd clear that up.
I knew that!

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Old
10-12-2005, 08:01 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
No mention of Lafleur? By the way I dont get the horrible hart part for Lemieux... anyone who had a horrible heart wouldn't have come back from cancer to play hockey and lead the league in scoring. Also anyone with a horrible heart wouldn't have saved a franchise the way he did.
The Flower would come in at about #7 for me personally. No knock on him, he was great. I just think the others I listed were better, IMO.

I think Lemieux could have been SO much better if he wasn't such a baby in his first 10 years. And he has been a floater for 14 of his years in the NHL, so I don't have much respect for that. But he did help save the team in Pittsburgh (for awhile, anyway), so I grant you that. But what does that have to do with where he sits on the all-time PLAYER'S list?

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10-12-2005, 09:38 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by jiggs 10
The Flower would come in at about #7 for me personally. No knock on him, he was great. I just think the others I listed were better, IMO.

I think Lemieux could have been SO much better if he wasn't such a baby in his first 10 years. And he has been a floater for 14 of his years in the NHL, so I don't have much respect for that. But he did help save the team in Pittsburgh (for awhile, anyway), so I grant you that. But what does that have to do with where he sits on the all-time PLAYER'S list?
Hows this for no heart - refuses to allow others to hit him or else face a bashing by some bodyguard goon;arranges a trade out of the city that supported him for US bucks and the limelight and then blames his wife; doesnt support the oldtimers like Gordie in pension fight but instead supports the NHl eventhough he's an active player at the time; raises his kids in US while pimpin' chevy trucks ad nauseum and selling lousy food at a cheezy diner in Canada; hires the suspended goon Marty McSorley; hires himself as a coach and lets experienced ex-coaches run the team while hogging the limelight; as Sather pointed out recently, always wanted to be out there with the empty net goal possibility.

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10-12-2005, 09:55 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiggs 10
The Flower would come in at about #7 for me personally. No knock on him, he was great. I just think the others I listed were better, IMO.

I think Lemieux could have been SO much better if he wasn't such a baby in his first 10 years. And he has been a floater for 14 of his years in the NHL, so I don't have much respect for that. But he did help save the team in Pittsburgh (for awhile, anyway), so I grant you that. But what does that have to do with where he sits on the all-time PLAYER'S list?
Lemieux's dedication to the game was questioned in his first four or five seasons, and deservedly so. He had no commitment to conditioning (which played a role in his back injuries) and often seemed more interested in his golf game. (Anyone else remember the 1989 THN Yearbook which included the list of headlines they wanted t see? One of them was "I like hockey more than I like golf" Mario Lemieux).

It all changed in 1991. He missed most of the season with a back injury, but came back and led his team to the Stanley Cup, using his deadly combination of size and skill to full effect. He played through a broken wrist in 1992 to win another Cup. Both times he won the Conn Smythe Trophy. He overcame cancer and recurring back problems in 1993 to win the Art Ross.

Was a defensive dynamo? No. In fact, he usually needed directions to his own end. But there are a lot of all-time greats - Gretzky, Lafleur, Bossy among them - who aren't known for their defensive prowess.

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10-13-2005, 04:49 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Hows this for no heart - refuses to allow others to hit him or else face a bashing by some bodyguard goon;arranges a trade out of the city that supported him for US bucks and the limelight and then blames his wife; doesnt support the oldtimers like Gordie in pension fight but instead supports the NHl eventhough he's an active player at the time; raises his kids in US while pimpin' chevy trucks ad nauseum and selling lousy food at a cheezy diner in Canada; hires the suspended goon Marty McSorley; hires himself as a coach and lets experienced ex-coaches run the team while hogging the limelight; as Sather pointed out recently, always wanted to be out there with the empty net goal possibility.
I fail to see what any of this has to do with the on-ice performance of Mario Lemieux, which is what you are repying to. Sure, Gretzky had a few detracters in his day, but was still better than Mario all-time, head-to-head, and after his retirement. Mario had done some silly commercials too, and has raised his kids to be Americans, and employs a goon named Jay Caulfield as his "personal trainer". What's your point? Mine is that Mario had very little dedication to hockey or himself for the first 8 or 9 years of his career, and that will always be held against him (in my book, and in other people's as well).

I am just saying that had he tried a little harder early on, and not whined so much to refs (also a Gretzky trait early on), and not gotten such sickening special treatment from the refs, he would have a lot more respect from hockey people.

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10-13-2005, 09:20 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by jiggs 10
I fail to see what any of this has to do with the on-ice performance of Mario Lemieux, which is what you are repying to. Sure, Gretzky had a few detracters in his day, but was still better than Mario all-time, head-to-head, and after his retirement. Mario had done some silly commercials too, and has raised his kids to be Americans, and employs a goon named Jay Caulfield as his "personal trainer". What's your point? Mine is that Mario had very little dedication to hockey or himself for the first 8 or 9 years of his career, and that will always be held against him (in my book, and in other people's as well).

I am just saying that had he tried a little harder early on, and not whined so much to refs (also a Gretzky trait early on), and not gotten such sickening special treatment from the refs, he would have a lot more respect from hockey people.
Youre problem is that you just follow the party line.

All I was saying is that if you say Mario had no heart well neither did Wayne. But if you write that, then you are expressing "hatred", while its apparently fair game to take potshots at Mario. Nothing unusual for him since (unlike what your wrote about his special treatment ) he stood in front of the net not behind it if you know what I mean.

As for his first 8 years; just look at his performance. So he golfed in the summers wowee - keep attacking him, big guy. I know youre not filled with hatred, just hot air.

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10-13-2005, 09:32 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by BM67
"The first time I saw Maurice Richard play was at the Forum, December 27, 1942."

""On December 28, 1944, the coach's kid, now twelve years old, was watching the game while sitting at the end of the Canadiens' bench when the Rocket set a record by registering eight points - five goals and three assists - as the Canadiens whipped Detroit 9-1."

Dick Irvin, My 26 Stanley Cups
He came into Montreal for xmas during the school year.

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10-13-2005, 09:34 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
Lemieux's dedication to the game was questioned in his first four or five seasons, and deservedly so. He had no commitment to conditioning (which played a role in his back injuries) and often seemed more interested in his golf game. (Anyone else remember the 1989 THN Yearbook which included the list of headlines they wanted t see? One of them was "I like hockey more than I like golf" Mario Lemieux).

It all changed in 1991. He missed most of the season with a back injury, but came back and led his team to the Stanley Cup, using his deadly combination of size and skill to full effect. He played through a broken wrist in 1992 to win another Cup. Both times he won the Conn Smythe Trophy. He overcame cancer and recurring back problems in 1993 to win the Art Ross.

Was a defensive dynamo? No. In fact, he usually needed directions to his own end. But there are a lot of all-time greats - Gretzky, Lafleur, Bossy among them - who aren't known for their defensive prowess.
Lafleur always backchecked unlike the others you listed/ otherwise Bowman would have played him as often as he did Larouche - never!

If you'd actually watched those 8 or 9 glorious years of #10, he was a fine 2 way player.

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10-14-2005, 07:26 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by jiggs 10
I fail to see what any of this has to do with the on-ice performance of Mario Lemieux, which is what you are repying to. Sure, Gretzky had a few detracters in his day, but was still better than Mario all-time, head-to-head, and after his retirement. Mario had done some silly commercials too, and has raised his kids to be Americans, and employs a goon named Jay Caulfield as his "personal trainer". What's your point? Mine is that Mario had very little dedication to hockey or himself for the first 8 or 9 years of his career, and that will always be held against him (in my book, and in other people's as well).

I am just saying that had he tried a little harder early on, and not whined so much to refs (also a Gretzky trait early on), and not gotten such sickening special treatment from the refs, he would have a lot more respect from hockey people.
Jiggs, I remember an interview or an article about #99 during his last few years when he spoke of his off-season training and how he needed this to compete as he got older and how he didn't pay a lot of attn. yo it as a younger player. My impression is that at a point in both careers it was realized that to stay at a certain level,more work was req'd. I don't want to argue about who worked jharder in the off season though. It's curious to me about the circumstances of when a team including a great player started to win. We can go on about dedication,but it seems these teams won,when a key ingredient was added. I remember the Oilers balancing out their 2nd line, or the Francis/Samuellson trade in Pittsburgh. It makes for nice HNIC interviews with clones named Scott, but I don't think I necessarily buy these he learned how to win stories. I think Gretzky and Lemieux showed a lot of growing pains in early behavior, the blemish on Lemieux was that there always seemed to be a bit of controversy about Team Canada involvements. I'm at the point where I don't get the chronology of that debacle,King doesn't want Lemieux.Lemieux doesn't want King, etc. Seems like neither was getting much good advice and Hockey Canada wouldn't let things get to that point today. I tend to rate #99 over #66 because in my mind they're both offensive superstars from eras when you could put up big #'s, and Gretz accomplished more. If certain circumstances were diffrent I could change my opinion,but I can't get past the #'s Gretz put up. If you devide you want to dengrate one or the other, you can. Tough guys riding shotgun,empty net goals,and discussing whether they were complete players isn't genuine with these 2.

To me,Howe and Orr are easily in the top 5. I take Orr as #1 because we have no real criteria for judging. Positions are different,team situations,so it gets subjective,and I take Orr just because I want to. My father takes Lemieux, but I like to think I'm smarter than him.

As for #5, any of us could make a strong arguement for Richard,Beliveau,Bourque,Harvey,the mythical greatest goalie of all time,and I might agree. I'd say Beliveau because I have the most respect for him of anyone I've ever seen in the sports world,not even close.

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10-14-2005, 02:03 PM
  #50
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I know youre not filled with hatred, just hot air.
Pot calling kettle black alert

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