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Sylvain Lefebvre Discussion

View Poll Results: Should the Habs Re-Sign Sylvain Lefebvre
Yes 7 3.03%
No, time for change 192 83.12%
Who's Sylvain Lefebvre? 10 4.33%
I'd rather pick my Nose than Care about this poll 22 9.52%
Voters: 231. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-25-2015, 06:40 PM
  #76
montreal
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
The goal needs to be a hybrid one. There are interdependencies. You probably can't always have everything. But it sure would be nice. Ideally you want these things (what others?):
- develop your young players into good NHLers
- serve as a useful pool of immediate replacement players for the NHL team
- win: because winning means playing more games against good teams in a good environment, and ultimately contributes to the first point of better developing players...

Boucher's team pretty much succeeded at having everything. Most of the good players were young ones, there were some veterans, esp. the goalies, Glumac, Henry... but they all meshed, won games, and the Habs ultimately benefited with players graduating. I don't think the goal of winning is even remotely mutually exclusive with developing players for the big team. It's just self-limiting if you say you're satisfied with developing players and who cares about winning. You can have both, so go for both. The team that won in 2007 wasn't stocked with a whole bunch of veteran AHL gunslingers either.

The AHL can be somewhat cyclical, not as bad as junior, say, but to be sure there are going to be years when your prospects are a little greener than other years. So I am sympathetic with a year down here and there. But I guess to me, Lefebvre has had a pretty full cycle available to him, and I thought maybe this team ought to be ready to accomplish a little more in Year 3 than they have thus far.
agreed on all points

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01-25-2015, 07:30 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by montreal View Post
Management is at fault in this too. But I can't say I agree that every time we call someone up they perform to expectations (although that is a very subjective term of course) But let's take a look at the last 2 years,

Thomas- 5 0-0-0 -3
Beaulieu- 47 0-6-6 +9 27 pims
Tinordi- 31 0-4-4 -7 47 pims
Andrighetto 12 2-1-3 E
Bournival 75 9-8-17 -7 18 pims
Nattinen 1 0-0-0 E
Dumont 2 0-0-0 E
Holland 5 0-0-0 E
Leblanc 4 0-0-0 +1 4 pims

St. Pierre 1 0-0-0 E
Blunden 7 0-0-0 -2 5 pims
Bowman 3 0-0-0 E
Tangradi 7 0-0-0 -3 17 pims

That's 200 NHL games over the last 2 years, 200-11-19-30 -12 120 pims If you take out Bournival's hot start in Oct last season those numbers drop to just 5 goals from mid Nov 2013 to today.
well you're right, it is subjective because other than beaulieu, this all seems normal to me. i am disappointed in beaulieu's lack of offense, but im not worried because im sure it's gonna click eventually. im fine with andrighetto because if you look at how he was used, how is game progressed from his first to his last, there was a clear progression in other aspects of his game. and by the end, he didn't have the best linemates either. its a marathon, not a race

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
The goal needs to be a hybrid one. There are interdependencies. You probably can't always have everything. But it sure would be nice. Ideally you want these things (what others?):
- develop your young players into good NHLers
- serve as a useful pool of immediate replacement players for the NHL team
- win: because winning means playing more games against good teams in a good environment, and ultimately contributes to the first point of better developing players...

Boucher's team pretty much succeeded at having everything. Most of the good players were young ones, there were some veterans, esp. the goalies, Glumac, Henry... but they all meshed, won games, and the Habs ultimately benefited with players graduating. I don't think the goal of winning is even remotely mutually exclusive with developing players for the big team. It's just self-limiting if you say you're satisfied with developing players and who cares about winning. You can have both, so go for both. The team that won in 2007 wasn't stocked with a whole bunch of veteran AHL gunslingers either.

The AHL can be somewhat cyclical, not as bad as junior, say, but to be sure there are going to be years when your prospects are a little greener than other years. So I am sympathetic with a year down here and there. But I guess to me, Lefebvre has had a pretty full cycle available to him, and I thought maybe this team ought to be ready to accomplish a little more in Year 3 than they have thus far.
good points


Last edited by montreal; 04-05-2016 at 01:19 AM..
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Old
01-25-2015, 07:50 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
well you're right, it is subjective because other than beaulieu, this all seems normal to me. i am disappointed in beaulieu's lack of offense, but im not worried because im sure it's gonna click eventually. im fine with andrighetto because if you look at how he was used, how is game progressed from his first to his last, there was a clear progression in other aspects of his game. and by the end, he didn't have the best linemates either. its a marathon, not a race
not scoring goals isn't what I would call normal. Also we are here to win, so for me it is a race. Would be very different if we were the Sabres, oilers, canes type of teams but this team with a little help could be at the top of the NHL.

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01-25-2015, 08:13 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by montreal View Post
not scoring goals isn't what I would call normal. Also we are here to win, so for me it is a race. Would be very different if we were the Sabres, oilers, canes type of teams but this team with a little help could be at the top of the NHL.
obviously. my point is that none of them are game breaking talents to begin with and they are young, for some it was their first callups so yeah, im not worried.

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01-25-2015, 08:22 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
obviously. my point is that none of them are game breaking talents to begin with and they are young, for some it was their first callups so yeah, im not worried.
not very good excuses in my book, why do they need to be game breaking talents? We are talking about several 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks here from one of the top scouts in the NHL. To play for a top team in the NHL, you have to produce, to me having so many struggle to produce even a little is very concerning.

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01-25-2015, 08:26 PM
  #81
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Meh....Whatever Bergevin does I'm good with

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01-25-2015, 09:04 PM
  #82
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Meh....Whatever Bergevin does I'm good with
Even first degree murder?

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Old
01-25-2015, 09:29 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by montreal View Post
not very good excuses in my book, why do they need to be game breaking talents? We are talking about several 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks here from one of the top scouts in the NHL. To play for a top team in the NHL, you have to produce, to me having so many struggle to produce even a little is very concerning.
i wouldn't say 'very concerning'. talking strictly production:

Thomas: thomas does what he's always done so far in his career: "okay" in the ahl, "nothing" in the nhl. i dont see him ever becoming an nhl player but my fingers are crossed regardless
Beaulieu: i did say that his lack of offense was concerning. i also said that im sure it'll come eventually so im not worried.
Tinordi: isn't a productive guy. at any level. so again, nothing wrong here
Andrighetto: he's young, it's his first callup. i have high hopes for him, but again: it's his first callup, so sue me for not hitting the panic button after a few games. he does have very good stats with the dogs
Bournival: shouldn't be more than a third liner at best. so nothing wrong here
Leblanc: only has himself to blame

Nattinen, Dumont, Holland, St. Pierre, Blunden, Bowman, Tangradi are not even projected to be in the nhl

ill end this by just saying lets agree to disagree. its not perfect, but i see nothing wrong with how our prospects are developed, certainly not a fireable offense. it doesn't mean that it can't be improved though.

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01-25-2015, 10:34 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
i wouldn't say 'very concerning'. talking strictly production:

Thomas: thomas does what he's always done so far in his career: "okay" in the ahl, "nothing" in the nhl. i dont see him ever becoming an nhl player but my fingers are crossed regardless
Beaulieu: i did say that his lack of offense was concerning. i also said that im sure it'll come eventually so im not worried.
Tinordi: isn't a productive guy. at any level. so again, nothing wrong here
Andrighetto: he's young, it's his first callup. i have high hopes for him, but again: it's his first callup, so sue me for not hitting the panic button after a few games. he does have very good stats with the dogs
Bournival: shouldn't be more than a third liner at best. so nothing wrong here
Leblanc: only has himself to blame

Nattinen, Dumont, Holland, St. Pierre, Blunden, Bowman, Tangradi are not even projected to be in the nhl

ill end this by just saying lets agree to disagree. its not perfect, but i see nothing wrong with how our prospects are developed, certainly not a fireable offense. it doesn't mean that it can't be improved though.
Thomas was a 2nd round pick and had his best season in the AHL as a rookie under a different coach. Impressive goal scorer in the OHL, imo the lack of progress should raise a red flag. I can understand some not following the Dogs or prospects that closely so they don't care much but when you trade your 1st pick of the draft for him and his development stalls then to me it's something to take note.

Beaulieu what happens if his offense doesn't come? How long do you wait before you start to think maybe the problem was more with the development, keep in mind we have our 2 best prospects incoming next fall to the current coaching staff in Hamilton. Beaulieu has struggled in the NHL until being paired with Gonchar, a top 17 pick and drafted as an offensive D that hasn't produced despite playing under a former NHL defensemen.

Tinordi's struggles to make simple plays should at least be a bit concerning for a 3rd year pro. Granted players his size take longer to adjust to their big frames but the lack of production mixed with his lack of progress while under a former NHL defensemen should be cause for some concern imo.

Ghetto I like as well and he did look good when used properly so we'll see how it goes for him.

Bournival I place more blame on management for calling him up too soon but to go a full year and score 1 goal, yikes that's bad.

Leblanc, not sure how he only has himself to blame, sounds very weak to me. Did he have only himself to blame when he was leading every team he played for in ppg? How about when he was leading the dogs in scoring as a rookie? You don't find it the least bit odd that a 1st round pick goes on to lead every team he plays on in ppg, named rookie of the year in the USHL, leads his team in scoring as a Freshman (that's rare), does a good job for team Canada at the WJC's, has a good rookie year in the AHL under a different coach, looks decent in his NHL callup but once he starts playing under the current coaching staff in Hamilton things just happen to go to hell.

Leblanc regresses, Tinordi struggles in the NHL, Beaulieu goes up and down in the NHL, these are 1st round picks and yet we still don't have much to show from them at all. Imo when you have these red flags and your top 2 prospects incoming next season, then you better be damn sure you have the right people in place cause there's a lot on the line with Scherbak and McCarron as both could really help the Habs in the near future.

I can understand not caring about Hamilton, I just don't get why some say they don't care but then defend the worst coach Hamilton has had since the Habs moved there.

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01-26-2015, 02:02 AM
  #85
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Ok...it's decided!!

Lefebvre OUT...Boucher IN!! (for next season).

84% are FOR Lefebvre being replaced.





P.S.: or instead of Boucher...anyone that will develop our gem prospects...properly. (not a coach that will play Mayer over Tokarski like ''montreal'' wrote, and it's true...it doesn't make sense whatsoever and shouldn't be ignored). AHL next season...McCarron, Scherbak, Thrower (full time, no?), Fucale...we need a better farm team coach. And, I really really don't want Lefebvre succeeding to Therrien!

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01-26-2015, 02:42 AM
  #86
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Ok...it's decided!!

Lefebvre OUT...Boucher IN!! (for next season).

84% are FOR Lefebvre being replaced.





P.S.: or instead of Boucher...anyone that will develop our gem prospects...properly. (not a coach that will play Mayer over Tokarski like ''montreal'' wrote, and it's true...it doesn't make sense whatsoever and shouldn't be ignored). AHL next season...McCarron, Scherbak, Thrower (full time, no?), Fucale...we need a better farm team coach. And, I really really don't want Lefebvre succeeding to Therrien!
i doubt boucher will be interested in returning to the ahl. he's probably waiting for another nhl gig

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01-26-2015, 07:06 AM
  #87
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For me it's a concern that the farm system isn't producing at a better clip when we know we have one of the best scouts in the NHL but the results aren't there which to me points more to the development of said players on the farm.
Or we draft them very raw, this gives us the impression that we have great scouts, but it hides a greater development risk. We get some home runs, but the at-bat % could be better. I'm not saying it is a bad scouting tactic, I'm saying, if that is the case we need to be a lot more innovative with our farm system and/or better at scouting a mix of AHL-ready and raw prospects with NHL potential. Guys like Dumont are important to win in the AHL. We like to ignore it, but the AHL animal is quite the particular one. Defensively conscious grinders are the core of that league and NHL-grade players often get lost in that game style.


Last edited by SOLR; 01-26-2015 at 07:16 AM..
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01-26-2015, 08:26 AM
  #88
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Geez, you seem to say a lot of things that are disingenuous at best, if not deliberately misleading. I feel like I have to check your numbers all the time now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal View Post
Thomas was a 2nd round pick and had his best season in the AHL as a rookie under a different coach. Impressive goal scorer in the OHL, imo the lack of progress should raise a red flag. I can understand some not following the Dogs or prospects that closely so they don't care much but when you trade your 1st pick of the draft for him and his development stalls then to me it's something to take note.
Let's look at this "best season in the AHL under a different coach" argument:

Thomas as an AHL rookie under a different coach:
35 points in 73 games, for a point-per-game average of 0.48

Thomas, after the trade to Hamilton and under Lefebvre:
27 points in 55 games, for a point-per-game average of 0.49

Thomas, this year, his second year with Lefebvre:
15 points in 31 games, for a point-per-game average of 0.48

Seems rather consistent to me. Lack of progress? Perhaps, if you are only looking at point totals. But maybe he's better defensively now. Certainly hasn't been completely outclassed in his NHL games.

And "trade your first pick of the draft for him?" Really? They traded Danny Kristo for him, a stalled second round pick. They traded in effect the 56th overall to get the 40th overall. It's not like they were giving up a guy they had high hopes for.

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Beaulieu what happens if his offense doesn't come? How long do you wait before you start to think maybe the problem was more with the development, keep in mind we have our 2 best prospects incoming next fall to the current coaching staff in Hamilton. Beaulieu has struggled in the NHL until being paired with Gonchar, a top 17 pick and drafted as an offensive D that hasn't produced despite playing under a former NHL defensemen.
Personally, and this is entirely my own opinion, I never thought Beaulieu was or is going to be a big point producer in the NHL. I always viewed him as a Hainsey, or if you will, Gilbert type of player. With perhaps a little more nastiness. But that's just me, so when I say that Beaulieu is right where I expected him to be it's entirely my opinion. I hope he develops into "more" (although becoming a Hainsey-type player would be just fine) but that's my personal projection for him.

As for "struggling in the NHL until being paired with Gonchar" that is both debatable (remember the Gonchar-less playoffs last year?) and worthy of a "so what?" at the same time. A 21-22 year old defensemen doing better once paired with a veteran NHL defenseman? Stop the presses!

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Tinordi's struggles to make simple plays should at least be a bit concerning for a 3rd year pro. Granted players his size take longer to adjust to their big frames but the lack of production mixed with his lack of progress while under a former NHL defensemen should be cause for some concern imo.
I think you've disproved your own argument there. Tinordi was always considered to be a long-term project, because of his size and because he was coming from the USHL, moving to the OHL, then the AHL, and hopefully the NHL. But even at that, is he really behind where he should be? Consider the other defensemen drafted in first round of 2010 and the number of games they have played in the NHL:

Gudbranson, 3rd overall, 210 games
McIlrath, 10th overall, 3 games
Fowler, 12th overall, 311 games
Gormley, 13th overall, 20 games
Forbort, 15th overall, 0 games
Tinordi, 22nd overall, 39 games
Pysyk, 23rd overall, 67 games

He's not stellar by any stretch, but he's hardly standing out for his lack of NHL games at this stage in his career. Again considering where he was coming from AND that many on this board (not me) think he is good enough to be in the NHL right now and it's only because of Bergevin/Therrien and their supposed infatuation with veteran defensemen that is keeping him out. I mean, you can't have it both ways; you can't say Tinordi is good enough to be in the NHL and it's only because of Bouillon/Murray/Weaver/Gilbert/Allen/Emelin that he is not, and then say that Lefebvre is ruining him because he isn't in the NHL. I know you, montreal, aren't saying that, but isn't that the general opinion on this board? That Tinordi is in fact good enough to be in the NHL right now? If so, then Lefebvre has done his job, right?

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Ghetto I like as well and he did look good when used properly so we'll see how it goes for him.
Doesn't seem to be anything wrong with him yet. So we can't blame Lefebvre for ruining him. Yet.

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Bournival I place more blame on management for calling him up too soon but to go a full year and score 1 goal, yikes that's bad.
Not good at all. But like you said, this could be on management, and not Lefebvre. The counter-argument to that would be that he was a middling prospect before being traded to Montreal, played one season under Lefebvre "learning the system" and was then good enough to become an NHL regular. But I'm not going to die on this hill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal View Post
Leblanc, not sure how he only has himself to blame, sounds very weak to me. Did he have only himself to blame when he was leading every team he played for in ppg? How about when he was leading the dogs in scoring as a rookie? You don't find it the least bit odd that a 1st round pick goes on to lead every team he plays on in ppg, named rookie of the year in the USHL, leads his team in scoring as a Freshman (that's rare), does a good job for team Canada at the WJC's, has a good rookie year in the AHL under a different coach, looks decent in his NHL callup but once he starts playing under the current coaching staff in Hamilton things just happen to go to hell.
And yet he's not doing any better under a different AHL coach (now second on his team in goal scoring, as easily predicted). As I have said, in my opinion he was rushed out of Harvard and bounced around so much that he just didn't learn how to be a pro. In five years he played for five different teams, in five different leagues. That just cannot be good for your development. In the sixth season he showed up to camp, and while I thought he looked really good, was cut very early into it. I don't know why, but as I said in an earlier post the reason he was cut would probably go a long way towards explaining his ultimate career arc.

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01-26-2015, 08:40 AM
  #89
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They need a real coach down there someone that knows that while winning is nice it is a developmental league and the development of the top prospects is what matters most.

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01-26-2015, 09:51 AM
  #90
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so im not crazy after all

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01-26-2015, 10:07 AM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
i wouldn't say 'very concerning'. talking strictly production:

Thomas: thomas does what he's always done so far in his career: "okay" in the ahl, "nothing" in the nhl. i dont see him ever becoming an nhl player but my fingers are crossed regardless
Beaulieu: i did say that his lack of offense was concerning. i also said that im sure it'll come eventually so im not worried.
Tinordi: isn't a productive guy. at any level. so again, nothing wrong here
Andrighetto: he's young, it's his first callup. i have high hopes for him, but again: it's his first callup, so sue me for not hitting the panic button after a few games. he does have very good stats with the dogs
Bournival: shouldn't be more than a third liner at best. so nothing wrong here
Leblanc: only has himself to blame

Nattinen, Dumont, Holland, St. Pierre, Blunden, Bowman, Tangradi are not even projected to be in the nhl

ill end this by just saying lets agree to disagree. its not perfect, but i see nothing wrong with how our prospects are developed, certainly not a fireable offense. it doesn't mean that it can't be improved though.
fantastic posts.
also you could add that despite allegedly having a great scout--and i don't disagree with that assessment of Timmins--they still had to restock the talent cupboard after Gauthier was replaced. hence, they have a bunch of UFA college grad signings (Carr, Sorkin, Condon, etc.) and a few signed to AHL contracts (Macenauer, Gill, etc.). these are sure signs that there isn't depth in the system. . .yet.

if anything Hudon & Andrighetto are great signs re development and scouting b/c they were not high draft choices and were discounted re size, mostly. similarly Bournival and Gallagher stand out as exemplars. in the case of the last two, it's quite likely that they would have played longer in the AHL had the team not reminded me of the Red Wings in the 80s signing Chichocki, Staszak, etc. as college free agents b/c there was nothing else there. Then again, Detroit has a "genius" scouting & development staff (Ferraro, Sheahan, Emmerton, Kindl, McCollum--oooops). grass still greener?

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01-26-2015, 01:32 PM
  #92
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i doubt boucher will be interested in returning to the ahl. he's probably waiting for another nhl gig
sadly I agree, would love to have him back but just don't see him taking the job.

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Let's look at this "best season in the AHL under a different coach" argument:

Thomas as an AHL rookie under a different coach:
35 points in 73 games, for a point-per-game average of 0.48

Thomas, after the trade to Hamilton and under Lefebvre:
27 points in 55 games, for a point-per-game average of 0.49

Thomas, this year, his second year with Lefebvre:
15 points in 31 games, for a point-per-game average of 0.48

Seems rather consistent to me. Lack of progress? Perhaps, if you are only looking at point totals. But maybe he's better defensively now. Certainly hasn't been completely outclassed in his NHL games.

And "trade your first pick of the draft for him?" Really? They traded Danny Kristo for him, a stalled second round pick. They traded in effect the 56th overall to get the 40th overall. It's not like they were giving up a guy they had high hopes for.



Personally, and this is entirely my own opinion, I never thought Beaulieu was or is going to be a big point producer in the NHL. I always viewed him as a Hainsey, or if you will, Gilbert type of player. With perhaps a little more nastiness. But that's just me, so when I say that Beaulieu is right where I expected him to be it's entirely my opinion. I hope he develops into "more" (although becoming a Hainsey-type player would be just fine) but that's my personal projection for him.

As for "struggling in the NHL until being paired with Gonchar" that is both debatable (remember the Gonchar-less playoffs last year?) and worthy of a "so what?" at the same time. A 21-22 year old defensemen doing better once paired with a veteran NHL defenseman? Stop the presses!


I think you've disproved your own argument there. Tinordi was always considered to be a long-term project, because of his size and because he was coming from the USHL, moving to the OHL, then the AHL, and hopefully the NHL. But even at that, is he really behind where he should be? Consider the other defensemen drafted in first round of 2010 and the number of games they have played in the NHL:

Gudbranson, 3rd overall, 210 games
McIlrath, 10th overall, 3 games
Fowler, 12th overall, 311 games
Gormley, 13th overall, 20 games
Forbort, 15th overall, 0 games
Tinordi, 22nd overall, 39 games
Pysyk, 23rd overall, 67 games

He's not stellar by any stretch, but he's hardly standing out for his lack of NHL games at this stage in his career. Again considering where he was coming from AND that many on this board (not me) think he is good enough to be in the NHL right now and it's only because of Bergevin/Therrien and their supposed infatuation with veteran defensemen that is keeping him out. I mean, you can't have it both ways; you can't say Tinordi is good enough to be in the NHL and it's only because of Bouillon/Murray/Weaver/Gilbert/Allen/Emelin that he is not, and then say that Lefebvre is ruining him because he isn't in the NHL. I know you, montreal, aren't saying that, but isn't that the general opinion on this board? That Tinordi is in fact good enough to be in the NHL right now? If so, then Lefebvre has done his job, right?



Doesn't seem to be anything wrong with him yet. So we can't blame Lefebvre for ruining him. Yet.



Not good at all. But like you said, this could be on management, and not Lefebvre. The counter-argument to that would be that he was a middling prospect before being traded to Montreal, played one season under Lefebvre "learning the system" and was then good enough to become an NHL regular. But I'm not going to die on this hill.



And yet he's not doing any better under a different AHL coach (now second on his team in goal scoring, as easily predicted). As I have said, in my opinion he was rushed out of Harvard and bounced around so much that he just didn't learn how to be a pro. In five years he played for five different teams, in five different leagues. That just cannot be good for your development. In the sixth season he showed up to camp, and while I thought he looked really good, was cut very early into it. I don't know why, but as I said in an earlier post the reason he was cut would probably go a long way towards explaining his ultimate career arc.
Thomas is a sniper, a former 50 goal scorer in the OHL and yet he's never reached the goal totals he's had in his first year. Injuries hampered him last year but he wasn't on pace to break 20 goals last year and this year he may have if he kept up his pace with just 9 goals in 31 games. So lack of progress, to me for sure, is it a concern, at least to me it is.

As for Kristo, when he was traded he was among the top scorers in the NCAA and considered one of the best players in the league. He even had a good showing at the WC's for Team USA. Hardly what I would call stalled 2nd round pick.

Beaulieu was drafted as an offensive D from what I recall the scouting reports. I guess we'll see what happens if he can even reach the levels of production Hainsey had when he was putting up 30+ points a year. To me he needs to be around that level as his defensive game isn't good enough to be a top 4 if he's not providing some good production in the offensive zone. He did have a solid showing in the playoffs but it took to be paired up with Gonchar that he's looked his best and even that hasn't been overly impressive with the limited production. Yes he's still young but when you are a top 17 pick and coached by a former NHL defensemen, it's not wrong for some to expect more from him then he's shown to date.

Having watched Tinordi, I don't think he's good enough right now to be in the NHL on one of the top teams in the league, so to me it's a concern over the lack of progression. Same as Beaulieu, in that given he's a top 20ish pick and coached by a former NHL defensemen, I don't see the problem with expecting a little more then he's shown in the NHL to date. Granted big guys take longer to develop, but when you put together everything from the farm over the last 2+ years then to me there are some red flags for sure, if you don't agree then good for you. I like Tinordi and what he brings but I am still concerned about the lack of progress so far.

I don't watch Leblanc now, I've read/heard some good things about him this year and to me he's shown an improvement on the stat sheet but we have already beaten that to death. You don't agree that him being among the top goal scorers isn't an improvement, while I do. The world will still turn either way.

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01-27-2015, 11:02 AM
  #93
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Let's see if the Dogs make the playoffs and what happens there. If they don't make it to the post-season, then a change is in order.

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02-10-2015, 08:34 AM
  #94
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Sylvain Lefebvre - Is he really that bad?

I keep on reading posts bashing on the coaching staff in Hamilton. Its like everyday somebody else jumps on the same boat and criticizes or blames potentially busting players on them.

I remember perfectly the Louis Leblanc Saga, how LL lost his precious confidence in the A and could never get back to the level he had when he first played in MTL in 2011/2012. I heard the rumours on how demanding SL was on our precious little Louis and even forced him to change his skating stride, bla bla bla.

Seriously? Is being a very demanding coach bad for a player's development?

Wasn't Scotty Bowman, one of the greatest of all time, a freakin dictator?

Dale Hunter in the O is regarded as an extremely demanding coach, yet everyone was so happy to know that BigMac would play for the London Knights, because Hunter is "amazing at developing kids".

Same thing for Hitchcock in STL; extremely demanding coach, yet their kids have been pretty amazing if you ask me. And not many people would argue that, being an Edmonton native, Hitchcock would be just what the doctor ordered to set the Oilers kids straight and help them reach the next level.

The new crop of players in Hamilton are doing pretty good. Hudon is amazing, NB has finally made it to the NHL, JT is struggling but it had to be expected with bigger dmen taking more time to reach their full potential. We've been pretty well serviced so far by AHL call ups (and we've had plenty of those lately) and keep on winning.

Could it be that LL didn't have the mental toughness it takes to play with the pro? Could it be that SL actually helped us by exposing LL's character flaw? (Ok that might be pushing it).

But I still believe the question needs to be asked. Sylvain Lefebvre being a terrible coach : truth or fiction?

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02-10-2015, 08:52 AM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDisk View Post
I keep on reading posts bashing on the coaching staff in Hamilton. Its like everyday somebody else jumps on the same boat and criticizes or blames potentially busting players on them.

I remember perfectly the Louis Leblanc Saga, how LL lost his precious confidence in the A and could never get back to the level he had when he first played in MTL in 2011/2012. I heard the rumours on how demanding SL was on our precious little Louis and even forced him to change his skating stride, bla bla bla.

Seriously? Is being a very demanding coach bad for a player's development?

Wasn't Scotty Bowman, one of the greatest of all time, a freakin dictator?

Dale Hunter in the O is regarded as an extremely demanding coach, yet everyone was so happy to know that BigMac would play for the London Knights, because Hunter is "amazing at developing kids".

Same thing for Hitchcock in STL; extremely demanding coach, yet their kids have been pretty amazing if you ask me. And not many people would argue that, being an Edmonton native, Hitchcock would be just what the doctor ordered to set the Oilers kids straight and help them reach the next level.

The new crop of players in Hamilton are doing pretty good. Hudon is amazing, NB has finally made it to the NHL, JT is struggling but it had to be expected with bigger dmen taking more time to reach their full potential. We've been pretty well serviced so far by AHL call ups (and we've had plenty of those lately) and keep on winning.

Could it be that LL didn't have the mental toughness it takes to play with the pro? Could it be that SL actually helped us by exposing LL's character flaw? (Ok that might be pushing it).

But I still believe the question needs to be asked. Sylvain Lefebvre being a terrible coach : truth or fiction?
The players coming up from Hamilton seem well prepared for the NHL.

All of them.

None of them looked awful, other than Tangradi, which wasn't grown up in da system.

Now who the hell cares if the Dogs don't have a good record. I sure don't. I heard the Marlies were a very good AHL team. Their players are still terrible when they graduate to the NHL.

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02-10-2015, 08:58 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by PKtrollban View Post
The players coming up from Hamilton seem well prepared for the NHL.

All of them.

None of them looked awful, other than Tangradi, which wasn't grown up in da system.

Now who the hell cares if the Dogs don't have a good record. I sure don't. I heard the Marlies were a very good AHL team. Their players are still terrible when they graduate to the NHL.
Establishing a winning culture is always important.

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02-10-2015, 09:00 AM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDisk View Post
I keep on reading posts bashing on the coaching staff in Hamilton. Its like everyday somebody else jumps on the same boat and criticizes or blames potentially busting players on them.

I remember perfectly the Louis Leblanc Saga, how LL lost his precious confidence in the A and could never get back to the level he had when he first played in MTL in 2011/2012. I heard the rumours on how demanding SL was on our precious little Louis and even forced him to change his skating stride, bla bla bla.

Seriously? Is being a very demanding coach bad for a player's development?

Wasn't Scotty Bowman, one of the greatest of all time, a freakin dictator?

Dale Hunter in the O is regarded as an extremely demanding coach, yet everyone was so happy to know that BigMac would play for the London Knights, because Hunter is "amazing at developing kids".

Same thing for Hitchcock in STL; extremely demanding coach, yet their kids have been pretty amazing if you ask me. And not many people would argue that, being an Edmonton native, Hitchcock would be just what the doctor ordered to set the Oilers kids straight and help them reach the next level.

The new crop of players in Hamilton are doing pretty good. Hudon is amazing, NB has finally made it to the NHL, JT is struggling but it had to be expected with bigger dmen taking more time to reach their full potential. We've been pretty well serviced so far by AHL call ups (and we've had plenty of those lately) and keep on winning.

Could it be that LL didn't have the mental toughness it takes to play with the pro? Could it be that SL actually helped us by exposing LL's character flaw? (Ok that might be pushing it).

But I still believe the question needs to be asked. Sylvain Lefebvre being a terrible coach : truth or fiction?


If anything derailed LeBlanc's career I think it was the 42 games he played in the NHL at 20. It's hard at that age to go from making the big bucks in the NHL back to AHL after being there 4 months in that environment. His lock out year was probably a big shock to him. The part I was disappointed in was the following year(13-14), he seemed to have a strong start but he fell apart midseason and ended up with mediocre numbers.

In terms of Lefebvre, I have never heard of any credible source saying he was a bad coach or poor developer of talent. I'm sure MB would not have given him an extension if that was the case. His job is to have players be able to step into the NHL and play the Habs system, to me that hasn't been a problem. DLR Dumont Thomas all stepped in recently and have been pretty seamless in knowing the positioning and system.

Purely in terms of development, for every Leblanc there is a Beaulieu who has made large strides defensively. Gallagher who was able to make the Habs after a half season AHL out of junior at 20. Tokarski Bournival made it, Tinordi should be with the big club next year. Nygren Hudion Andrighetto and Pateryn should be knocking on the door.

Hard to say if you can pin any or all of Leblanc's failure on him, we would need more inside info...

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02-10-2015, 09:02 AM
  #98
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Preparing them for and learning to play at an NHL level is more so.

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02-10-2015, 09:05 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Establishing a winning culture is always important.
Pet theory:

What do you do when you know your head coach is one of the toughest and meanest SOB in the business?

Your make sure your AHL coach is even worse. Your turn Hamilton in a true living hell, so that players who get with the big Club see it as a vacation by comparison, and are extremely motivated in staying there.

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02-10-2015, 09:06 AM
  #100
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If he's anywhere near as bad as Therrien is according to these boards, I'd venture to say he's a pretty damn good coach.

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