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Sylvain Lefebvre Discussion

View Poll Results: Should the Habs Re-Sign Sylvain Lefebvre
Yes 7 3.03%
No, time for change 192 83.12%
Who's Sylvain Lefebvre? 10 4.33%
I'd rather pick my Nose than Care about this poll 22 9.52%
Voters: 231. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-10-2015, 09:07 AM
  #101
Le philantrope
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Establishing a winning culture is always important.
Not at the expense of preparing players for specific roles in the NHL.

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02-10-2015, 09:12 AM
  #102
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If he's anywhere near as bad as Therrien is according to these boards, I'd venture to say he's a pretty damn good coach.

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02-10-2015, 09:19 AM
  #103
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Not at the expense of preparing players for specific roles in the NHL.
How would winning come at the expense of development?

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02-10-2015, 09:39 AM
  #104
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Yea for all the talk about Lefebvre ruining our prospects, the guys we've called up this year have all looked pretty good.

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02-10-2015, 09:45 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
In terms of Lefebvre, I have never heard of any credible source saying he was a bad coach or poor developer of talent. I'm sure MB would not have given him an extension if that was the case.His job is to have players be able to step into the NHL and play the Habs system, to me that hasn't been a problem. DLR Dumont Thomas all stepped in recently and have been pretty seamless in knowing the positioning and system.
Never heard any credible source either. The consensus on this board is that he's really bad though. [Source, this poll : Should the Habs Re-Sign Sylvain Lefebvre? Results : Yes (2.82%), No (83.57%)]

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02-10-2015, 10:18 AM
  #106
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Louis Leblanc's #1 issue is that he never found out what a weight room is. Still being in the same thin shape he was in than when he was drafted hurt him. He was good energy/board player when he was up with the Habs but got outmuscled too often. Didn't seem like he put in the work off the ice.

As for Lefebvre, I don't know what happens in the locker room or practice, and the AHL doesn't keep TOI stats. From what I've seen the couple of games I've watched, he gives too much ice time & important situations to career AHLers instead of letting the prospects play. He's also had NHL prospects be healthy scratches.

We always say lets send the kids down to Hamilton, better they play in the AHL than they sit in the NHL...but without TOI stats, we don't even know if they're playing while they are down there.

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02-10-2015, 10:25 AM
  #107
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Not sure who are all those prospects who "looked pretty good". Where is Pateryn's progression? Where is Tinordi's progression who was totally suppose to start the year with us? Don't we all agree that Thomas is not going to be Habs for a long time? How was Tangradi? How was Bowman...how's Bowman doing right now? Dumont has been with us for how many years now? Can't wait to see Dietz and his development. How's Bennett development? And one guy who was said as a real product of Lefebvre's work is Bournival...how's the guy doing lately?

I mean...yep....it's not ALL Lefebvre's fault for sure. But just responding to people who bring up the guys that appeared on our lineup as some kind of proof of Lefebvre's work....

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02-10-2015, 10:26 AM
  #108
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I don't get a chance to watch any Dogs games but I do follow the stats and results.

So I can't offer an opinion about coaching.

Looking at some of the forward call-ups, I am of the opinion that some prospects in Hamilton are overrated by many here.

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02-10-2015, 10:26 AM
  #109
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yes. yes he is that bad. Maybe worse.

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02-10-2015, 10:33 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Uber Coca View Post
Never heard any credible source either. The consensus on this board is that he's really bad though. [Source, this poll : Should the Habs Re-Sign Sylvain Lefebvre? Results : Yes (2.82%), No (83.57%)]
This board is far from a credible source...just go read the Desharnais and Therrien threads.

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Originally Posted by Haaabs View Post
Louis Leblanc's #1 issue is that he never found out what a weight room is. Still being in the same thin shape he was in than when he was drafted hurt him. He was good energy/board player when he was up with the Habs but got outmuscled too often. Didn't seem like he put in the work off the ice.

As for Lefebvre, I don't know what happens in the locker room or practice, and the AHL doesn't keep TOI stats. From what I've seen the couple of games I've watched, he gives too much ice time & important situations to career AHLers instead of letting the prospects play. He's also had NHL prospects be healthy scratches.

We always say lets send the kids down to Hamilton, better they play in the AHL than they sit in the NHL...but without TOI stats, we don't even know if they're playing while they are down there.
LeBlanc was drafted at 170lbs and he is now at 190lbs and not tearing up the AHL. It's not about weight, it's not like he is 5'9" 140lbs like Tkachev or a beanpole at 6'2" 170lbs.

Bowman and Tangradi are journeymen in the AHL, I wouldn't gauge a coach's performance based on their improvement or lack thereof.

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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Not sure who are all those prospects who "looked pretty good". Where is Pateryn's progression? Where is Tinordi's progression who was totally suppose to start the year with us? Don't we all agree that Thomas is not going to be Habs for a long time? How was Tangradi? How was Bowman...how's Bowman doing right now? Dumont has been with us for how many years now? Can't wait to see Dietz and his development. How's Bennett development? And one guy who was said as a real product of Lefebvre's work is Bournival...how's the guy doing lately?

I mean...yep....it's not ALL Lefebvre's fault for sure. But just responding to people who bring up the guys that appeared on our lineup as some kind of proof of Lefebvre's work....
Tinordi has progressed well, the games I have seen and scouts I have spoken to say he is NHL ready. I assume they don't want him in Montreal in the press box or barely playing when he can play 22-24 minutes in Hamilton.

Pateryn is a good AHL player but his footspeed is an issue in being a full time NHLer, not a lot a coach can do about that. I'm sure the team(Habs) are giving him drills to work on but it's something you can only marginally improve at the pro level.

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02-10-2015, 10:33 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
This board is far from a credible source...just go read the Desharnais and Therrien threads.
Oh I know...

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02-10-2015, 10:45 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
LeBlanc was drafted at 170lbs and he is now at 190lbs and not tearing up the AHL.
He didn't look 190 in those photos from his Bulldogs days, though. I have to say, I liked Leblanc as a pick, and liked him in his first year with us. No idea what happened to him. He did work the boards well, that seemed to be his best attribute in the offensive zone anyway, just for sure, at his level of scrawniness that wasn't going to hold up doing that in the NHL. He's not a player where the external development environment seems to be a big factor, something went missing in his own hunger level, it seems.

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02-10-2015, 10:50 AM
  #113
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I keep on reading posts bashing on the coaching staff in Hamilton. Its like everyday somebody else jumps on the same boat and criticizes or blames potentially busting players on them.

I remember perfectly the Louis Leblanc Saga, how LL lost his precious confidence in the A and could never get back to the level he had when he first played in MTL in 2011/2012. I heard the rumours on how demanding SL was on our precious little Louis and even forced him to change his skating stride, bla bla bla.

Seriously? Is being a very demanding coach bad for a player's development?

Wasn't Scotty Bowman, one of the greatest of all time, a freakin dictator?

Dale Hunter in the O is regarded as an extremely demanding coach, yet everyone was so happy to know that BigMac would play for the London Knights, because Hunter is "amazing at developing kids".

Same thing for Hitchcock in STL; extremely demanding coach, yet their kids have been pretty amazing if you ask me. And not many people would argue that, being an Edmonton native, Hitchcock would be just what the doctor ordered to set the Oilers kids straight and help them reach the next level.

The new crop of players in Hamilton are doing pretty good. Hudon is amazing, NB has finally made it to the NHL, JT is struggling but it had to be expected with bigger dmen taking more time to reach their full potential. We've been pretty well serviced so far by AHL call ups (and we've had plenty of those lately) and keep on winning.

Could it be that LL didn't have the mental toughness it takes to play with the pro? Could it be that SL actually helped us by exposing LL's character flaw? (Ok that might be pushing it).

But I still believe the question needs to be asked. Sylvain Lefebvre being a terrible coach : truth or fiction?
To start, how many Hamilton games a year do you watch?

To me he's the worst coach I have ever seen, just not a fan at all as I think he's made terrible decisions and the on ice product is not fun to watch at least the previous 2 years were just brutal as the offense and PP couldn't do anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PKtrollban View Post
The players coming up from Hamilton seem well prepared for the NHL.

All of them.

None of them looked awful, other than Tangradi, which wasn't grown up in da system.

Now who the hell cares if the Dogs don't have a good record. I sure don't. I heard the Marlies were a very good AHL team. Their players are still terrible when they graduate to the NHL.
I haven't been as impressed with our call ups as you seem to be. Ghetto was ok, DLR has shown a decent physical game and Beaulieu has finally started to show something but for me it's no where near good enough. Here's how our calls up have done in the NHL,

Thomas- 10 0-0-0 -3
Tangradi- 7 0-0-0 -3 17 pims
De La Rose- 3 0-0-0 -2
Dumont- 3 0-0-0 -1
Bowman- 3 0-0-0
Tinordi- 9 0-2-2 -5 7 pims
Andrighetto- 12 2-1-3
Beaulieu- 37 0-5-5 +2 19 pims

so in 84 games, 2-8-10 -12 43 pims On a team that so badly needs offense, the call ups are not getting it done at all.

here's last year,

Leblanc- 8 0-0-0 +1 4 pims
Blunden- 7 0-0-0 -2 5 pims
Holland- 5 0-0-0
Thomas- 2 0-0-0 -1
Dumont- 2 0-0-0
St. Pierre- 1 0-0-0
Nattinen- 1 0-0-0
Tinordi- 22 0-2-2 -2 40 pims
Beaulieu- 17 0-2-2 +6 8 pims

65 games, 0-4-4 +2 57 pims

last 2 years, 149 games, 2-12-14 -10 100 pims


Quote:
Originally Posted by Haaabs View Post
Louis Leblanc's #1 issue is that he never found out what a weight room is. Still being in the same thin shape he was in than when he was drafted hurt him. He was good energy/board player when he was up with the Habs but got outmuscled too often. Didn't seem like he put in the work off the ice.

As for Lefebvre, I don't know what happens in the locker room or practice, and the AHL doesn't keep TOI stats. From what I've seen the couple of games I've watched, he gives too much ice time & important situations to career AHLers instead of letting the prospects play. He's also had NHL prospects be healthy scratches.

We always say lets send the kids down to Hamilton, better they play in the AHL than they sit in the NHL...but without TOI stats, we don't even know if they're playing while they are down there.
funny that Leblanc looked fine in the USHL, in the NCAA, in the Q, at the WJC's, in the AHL as a rookie. On all those teams he was among the top scorers every single time. Then the next year he's back in the AHL under the current coach and his game goes to hell. Granted he should have bulked up more, but to me it's a little odd that he was a top scorer everywhere before his NHL callup.


Last edited by montreal: 02-10-2015 at 10:59 AM.
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Old
02-10-2015, 02:20 PM
  #114
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I have no idea, so I'll go with the flow about retaining him. I've never been to Hamilton and I have no intention of going there.

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02-10-2015, 02:26 PM
  #115
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Tinordi has progressed well, the games I have seen and scouts I have spoken to say he is NHL ready. I assume they don't want him in Montreal in the press box or barely playing when he can play 22-24 minutes in Hamilton.

Pateryn is a good AHL player but his footspeed is an issue in being a full time NHLer, not a lot a coach can do about that. I'm sure the team(Habs) are giving him drills to work on but it's something you can only marginally improve at the pro level.
We ALL expected Tinordi to be a regular this year. He dissapointed big time in preseason. What he's doing now....well we'll see next year I guess where's he's at...I doubt we will see this year....so we'd reevaluate Lefebvre,s work with him. But what we know for a fact...didn't the organizatin said that they were dissapointed by the lack of progression of both Beaulieu and Tinordi at one point? It has to as clear as saying that Tinordi was not progressing well. We'll see next year where he is at, as Beaulieu picked it up....Tinordi is also suppose to do it. At one point, a coach is a coach...but when the said coach is an ex-d-man....you'd think he'd be succesful at developing "his own kind".

And yes...like I said, it's not all Lefebvre's fault. Yet again, was just responding to the people who said that he had to do some awesome work based on the guy we saw with the big club. As of now, it's really just Beaulieu. And like I said before...the organization was disspointed at the start of the year by his development. The rest are still fringe NHL'ers and there's a lot of them in every AHL team.

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02-10-2015, 03:05 PM
  #116
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I haven't been as impressed with our call ups as you seem to be. Ghetto was ok, DLR has shown a decent physical game and Beaulieu has finally started to show something but for me it's no where near good enough. Here's how our calls up have done in the NHL,

Thomas- 10 0-0-0 -3
Tangradi- 7 0-0-0 -3 17 pims
De La Rose- 3 0-0-0 -2
Dumont- 3 0-0-0 -1
Bowman- 3 0-0-0
Tinordi- 9 0-2-2 -5 7 pims
Andrighetto- 12 2-1-3
Beaulieu- 37 0-5-5 +2 19 pims

so in 84 games, 2-8-10 -12 43 pims On a team that so badly needs offense, the call ups are not getting it done at all.
What should we realistically expect offensively from guys like Tangradi, De La Rose, Dumont, Bowman or Tinordi though? Are any of these guys supposed to be dominant in the NHL anyway?

Also, do the Bulldogs have the team to compete? I'm not really impressed by the roster to be honest (I could be wrong as I don't watch any Bulldogs games).

Leblanc obviously busted (and maybe was mismanaged) but on the other hand you got Hudon having a great year as a rookie and Beaulieu looking sharp in the NHL.

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02-10-2015, 03:24 PM
  #117
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To be honest Tinordi wasn't all that great early on this year but imo has done enough previously to have merited a call up by now. He's had good and bad in a Habs jersey, while others can't say the same.

That being said, I too haven't been following Hamilton that closely this year so can't say how good/bad he's been. Maybe it is justified not having him up, but with how our D have been playing I find it hard to believe he's regressed to the point of not even being worth a call up.

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02-10-2015, 03:30 PM
  #118
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Not at the expense of preparing players for specific roles in the NHL.
This I actually have a big problem with. Playing on the 3rd line in the AHL because the player is expected to be a 3rd liner in the NHL is a terrible development strategy.

With the exception of goons, even 3rd and 4th line players should be capable top-6 players in the AHL. They don't need to be in the top-6 as rookie, but the development plan should certainly plan for them to major contributers to the AHL team even though they would be complementary players in the NHL. So there's no such thing as developing a player for a specific NHL role.

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02-10-2015, 03:46 PM
  #119
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Groulx in Hamilton and Boucher in MTL would be something special. Therrien and Lefebvre aren't able to get the most out of their players and have absolutely idiotic systems. Change would be nice.

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02-10-2015, 04:22 PM
  #120
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Groulx in Hamilton and Boucher in MTL would be something special. Therrien and Lefebvre aren't able to get the most out of their players and have absolutely idiotic systems. Change would be nice.
Price and Pacioretty seem to feel otherwise, as do their stats and the win column. I get it, people are never happy with the coach but the results are certainly there for a lot of players on this team.

I think it's somewhat unfair to blame it totally on the coach that certain players aren't producing when we're doing well in the win column.

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02-10-2015, 04:36 PM
  #121
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What should we realistically expect offensively from guys like Tangradi, De La Rose, Dumont, Bowman or Tinordi though? Are any of these guys supposed to be dominant in the NHL anyway?

Also, do the Bulldogs have the team to compete? I'm not really impressed by the roster to be honest (I could be wrong as I don't watch any Bulldogs games).

Leblanc obviously busted (and maybe was mismanaged) but on the other hand you got Hudon having a great year as a rookie and Beaulieu looking sharp in the NHL.
who said anything about being dominate in the NHL? If you take out Ghetto, then not a single call up would have scored a goal this year. It's not about being dominate, but it should be at least somewhat concerning over the lack of production.

yes the Dogs have a team to compete. Hudon is having a great year but Beaulieu isn't looking all that sharp imo. That's my point, not a single prospect since Gallagher has been able to produce in the last 2+ seasons, so for some it's a big concern.

Here's what the current coaching staff has done the previous 2 seasons,

2012-2013 - 29-41-1-5 159 goals for, 228 against. PP 10.7 % (32/298) finished 30th out of 30, offense finished 30th, PP finished 30th.

2013-2014 - 33-35-1-7 182 goals, 224 against. PP 13.5 % (44/325) finished 25th overall, offense finished 29th , PP finished 29th.

tonight they face the worst team in the AHL so they should pick up the win which would help them in the standings before their schedule gets tougher (this is the 4th of the last 5 games that were against the worst team in the AHL), the PP sits at 28th in the league at 12.2 % (22/180)

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02-10-2015, 04:46 PM
  #122
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This I actually have a big problem with. Playing on the 3rd line in the AHL because the player is expected to be a 3rd liner in the NHL is a terrible development strategy.

With the exception of goons, even 3rd and 4th line players should be capable top-6 players in the AHL. They don't need to be in the top-6 as rookie, but the development plan should certainly plan for them to major contributers to the AHL team even though they would be complementary players in the NHL. So there's no such thing as developing a player for a specific NHL role.
Totally agreed. I haven't watched the Bulldogs a lot this year, but pretty much all the criticisms of Lefebvre and what's going on resonate with me from previous years. I think a change is basically a no-brainer at this point. You want to breed a winning environment at all levels, and push the players to become the best they can be, not just pigeon-hole them prematurely.

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02-10-2015, 05:04 PM
  #123
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For me, the Hamilton coaching position is a "get up or get out" job. After three years there, a coach should either be identified as the future replacement in the big club, or bolt to another club (like Boucher) because he's too good to stay in the AHL. I don't see either scenario happening for Lefebvre. So he needs to get out.

The 'Dogs head-coach position is our premiere pipeline for french-speaking coaches, and there are plenty of very competent junior coaches who would do everything to have, too, their 3 years chance coaching our prospect. We simply can't afford, strategically, to leave a mediocre coach there for too long, because he's blocking all these other good candidates from getting that one good shot Quebecers have at a job at this level.

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02-10-2015, 05:07 PM
  #124
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Price and Pacioretty seem to feel otherwise, as do their stats and the win column. I get it, people are never happy with the coach but the results are certainly there for a lot of players on this team.

I think it's somewhat unfair to blame it totally on the coach that certain players aren't producing when we're doing well in the win column.
Price is a direct product of Waite's coaching, not Therrien's. Pacioretty produced at a similar rate before Therrien ever came to the Habs.

This team is almost entirely reliant on Price and there are stats to prove it..... not to mention just watching the games (which I'm not saying you don't). Therrien makes a lot of really weak personnel decisions and his system is wack. He doesn't deserve all of the blame, but wins don't tell the whole story.

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02-10-2015, 05:08 PM
  #125
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One last thing: the current situation reminds me a lot of the Lever situation. Don Lever coached from 2005 to 2009 and won the Calder Cup with a team lead by a rookie goalie called Carey Price. But aside from that, he was considered mediocre and people debated a lot if he should stay or go. He was let go in the end, and for me it's for the same reason: Get up or Get out.

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