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Do you think the Oilers should have signed a veteran?

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Old
10-08-2003, 12:57 PM
  #1
Slats432
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Do you think the Oilers should have signed a veteran?

According to canucks.com, the Canucks signed Mike Keane to a $500 000 one way deal.

Most pundits pick Vancouver to finish ahead of the Oil. If this is true then why is a veteran good enough to make the Canucks and not the Oilers?

When Dallas signed Muller a few years ago for $600K I was angry. This time I am not angry because I knew that our GM wasn't going to do it.

We all talk about wanting to go further than a first round exit but isn't there anyone out there that agrees with me that having Mike Keane on our fourth line and Jarret Stoll as the number one centre in Toronto may possess some advantage to our young club?

Are the Oilers too stuck in their youth movement that a player with 3 cup rings on three different teams wouldn't provide the 2nd intermission calming presence when we are up 3-2 that we end up winning a few more?

And no, I have no interest in debating Mike Keane's value or ability with anyone. Just the philosophy of adding an inexpensive veteran.

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10-08-2003, 01:25 PM
  #2
theoil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slats432
Just the philosophy of adding an inexpensive veteran.
Corey Cross, Steve Staios, Jason Smith, Scott Ferguson, Ryan Smyth, Ethan Moreau. Not all inexpensive but all veterans. I was more upset when we didn't get Sami Salo last year.

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10-08-2003, 01:36 PM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theoil
Corey Cross, Steve Staios, Jason Smith, Scott Ferguson, Ryan Smyth, Ethan Moreau. Not all inexpensive but all veterans. I was more upset when we didn't get Sami Salo last year.
What were we going to give for hiM?

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10-08-2003, 01:39 PM
  #4
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I always thought Cliff Ronning would be a good pick up if he were to come cheap. After all - he's a fast skater and can put up good numbers. Small guy, though.

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10-08-2003, 01:42 PM
  #5
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Although I don't disagree that a veteran can be a valuable addition to a young team, I don't think a veteran forward is a good idea. I think we do have a number of vets playing that role currently, and more importantly, we have too many young players ready to make the next step to the NHL that it is more important to get them into the lineup than have their spot taken by an older player with a one-year contract.

As it is, we have Rita, Salmolainen and Sarno in Toronto, and Stoll in the press box (at least for now). Add in the fact that Comrie may sign OR be moved, possibly with another forward coming back in the deal, the roster spots are few and far between.

That being said, I'd like to see Edmonton pick up a player for the blue line (I was thinking Berard).

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10-08-2003, 02:02 PM
  #6
theoil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thome_26
What were we going to give for hiM?
Nothing, it was all in my mind. I would have preferred turning Grier into Salo rather than the draft picks from Washington and I think he was better suited to Ottawa than what they got from Vancouver.

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10-08-2003, 02:04 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jofa
That being said, I'd like to see Edmonton pick up a player for the blue line (I was thinking Berard).
I hear we have the salary with MC sitting.

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10-08-2003, 02:11 PM
  #8
jofa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theoil
I hear we have the salary with MC sitting.
Trade MC for Chistov and sign Berard, and still come in under Comrie's old $3.5 mil salary.

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10-08-2003, 02:34 PM
  #9
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I think I brought him up before but isn't Shjon Podein still available as an UFA? haven't heard much concerning him.

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10-08-2003, 02:56 PM
  #10
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I'd love to see Berard with an oil drop on his chest. Is this actually a reality though or just wishful thinking?

I'm not sold on Chistov for Comrie straight up. Maybe a pick coming our way as well? Then again, I don't know a ton about him so maybe someone could enlighten me.

I think what slats432 is talking about though, is a vet with rings. Our vets don't have 'em. A Mike Keane type in the room has got to be a huge plus and I don't think having Stoll in TO would hamper his development as some have said.

I think Lowe was thinking the same thing when he entertained the idea of Messier coming back. Ideally our vet with rings would play on the line though.

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10-08-2003, 03:13 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big T
I'm not sold on Chistov for Comrie straight up. Maybe a pick coming our way as well? Then again, I don't know a ton about him so maybe someone could enlighten me.
I think the Anaheim fans would say the same the other way around, if they would even want to think about it. From what I have heard around here, the fans there see him like we see Hemsky.

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10-08-2003, 03:28 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan
I think the Anaheim fans would say the same the other way around, if they would even want to think about it. From what I have heard around here, the fans there see him like we see Hemsky.
If Comrie is in fact moved for futures I COULD see a guy like Oates or Ronning getting an offer. I like Oates @ 1.5 with Bonus's ... he's the most talented vet on the market and probably the next best passer the nhl has ever had past mr.wayne but Ronning would probably be more affordable probably something like 1.1 M would be enough and has been known to be good on the PP. Both are small though ... and I KNOOOOW Lowe isn't going for anymore small guys.

SM

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10-08-2003, 05:59 PM
  #13
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Someone mentioned that we have some veterans...OK...how many of our veterans have ever been to the 2nd round of the playoffs.

'Nuff said.

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10-08-2003, 06:13 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slats432
Someone mentioned that we have some veterans...OK...how many of our veterans have ever been to the 2nd round of the playoffs.

'Nuff said.
Radek Dvorak, Ryan Smyth, Marty Reasoner, Cory Cross have all made it to the second round. Radek Dvorak has played in the Stanley Cup final.

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Old
10-08-2003, 06:16 PM
  #15
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(1) I didn't think there was anyone on the ufa list this season in the Oilers' price range worth taking (because Sanderson was signed b4 he became a ufa), and (2) I don't think the Oilers are at the serious contender stage this season either.

This is a season to evaluate and cultivate the crop in hopes that we will be in the market for "that final piece of the puzzle" in one of the next few seasons.

Thie Oil should be good enough to get into the playoffs and entertain us thoroughly, but no ufa would put us over the top so I'd have to give that idea a resounding no.

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10-08-2003, 06:39 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big T
I'd love to see Berard with an oil drop on his chest. Is this actually a reality though or just wishful thinking?

I'm not sold on Chistov for Comrie straight up. Maybe a pick coming our way as well? Then again, I don't know a ton about him so maybe someone could enlighten me.

I think what slats432 is talking about though, is a vet with rings. Our vets don't have 'em. A Mike Keane type in the room has got to be a huge plus and I don't think having Stoll in TO would hamper his development as some have said.

I think Lowe was thinking the same thing when he entertained the idea of Messier coming back. Ideally our vet with rings would play on the line though.
Chistov is very talented but again he is small, so i am not sure we want another small forward back. How about comrie for Lupal straight up. I watched the ducks/stars game tonight and lupals line with chistov and pahlson was their best imo and lupal looked good on the pp as well.

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10-08-2003, 06:41 PM
  #17
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Lupul is who i think Lowe would be after

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Old
10-09-2003, 05:33 AM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilers89
Radek Dvorak, Ryan Smyth, Marty Reasoner, Cory Cross have all made it to the second round. Radek Dvorak has played in the Stanley Cup final.
I wouldn't calculate Reasoner or Dvorak into a grizzled veteran but OK, we have one guy that has ever been to the Stanley Cup Final.(And he is 26?)

Let's be realistic here.

Cross(47 playoff games career)
Smyth(44)
Smith(27)
York(6)
Staios(9)
Dvorak(23)and 16 came in his rookie year so one would have to say he may not have taken much from that.

I don't suggest the Oilers don't have any leaders. I suggest that there is no one on this team that has any idea of winning anything.

Cliff Ronning(122 playoff games)
Adam Oates(163)
Steve Thomas(168)

They are only three examples of players that could help our team with differing costs. I don't profess to know what is best for the Oilers because I am an armchair GM like everyone else.

What I do know is I see teams that sign these veterans go further in the playoffs than we do.

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10-09-2003, 06:24 AM
  #19
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I don't discount the idea of signing a veteran because I thought Oates or Ronning would be good signing for us also, but in the big picture what do we get out of it?

If Lowe is building this team for sustained success post CBA, then why sacrifice the spot of one of the kids for a grizzled veteran that can only help us for one year (and still not put us closer to the cup).

We won't win it this year or the next so why not let the kids grow together, then when it's time to push for the cup let Lowe assess what veteran presence may best help. Bottom line I think it's too soon to look in that direction.

As for Vancouver's signing, it's clear that they are looking to fit the final parts of a cup team together but aren't they about 3 years too late for Keane to be really helpful? The guy's all used up.

Personally I think they should have gone after Oates. I think he is still a better player than Morrison- couldn't imagine the damage Naslund Oates and Bertuzzi could do? But I guess Burke was looking for a bargain.

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10-09-2003, 06:42 AM
  #20
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I find talk about the Canuacks as cup contenders VERY funny. They lack the secondary scoring (Sedins aren't gonna score 20 goals in the near future). Bertuzzi and Naslund had career years - don't expect their numbers to remain that high. Their defense is good offensively but defensively they aren't to hot at all. Plus big goaltending questions. The Nucks are contendners - they are in the Anaheim, Tampa, Boston range

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10-09-2003, 07:31 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copperandblue
I don't discount the idea of signing a veteran because I thought Oates or Ronning would be good signing for us also, but in the big picture what do we get out of it?
The big picture is that one year of that veteran can provide the valuable leadership that could give us 2-3 rounds of playoffs instead of one or none. The experience can be passed on in the one season that can be carried by the rest of this group for years and give them something to build on.

Quote:
If Lowe is building this team for sustained success post CBA, then why sacrifice the spot of one of the kids for a grizzled veteran that can only help us for one year (and still not put us closer to the cup).
What exactly is the kid going to learn and from whom at 8 minutes a game? One year of sitting beside Adam Oates for Torres, Chimera, etc etc will do more than that. All of that experience passed from the veteran is what is going to get us closer to the cup. When you look at the defining moment indicated by Gretzky to the Oilers first cup is when Glen Sather paraded the team past the Isles dressing room after the 1983 loss. The Oilers took their lessons from the Islander veterans. Does anyone on this Oiler team have an idea what it takes to win?

Quote:
We won't win it this year or the next so why not let the kids grow together, then when it's time to push for the cup let Lowe assess what veteran presence may best help. Bottom line I think it's too soon to look in that direction.
The kids have grown together until they get old enough to trade. If they are never taught how to win, they will never push for a cup. It isn't a direction. And if you are hell bent on giving that last spot to Stoll then why is Pisani on this team? Why isn't Rita on this team? Why do we have Scott Ferguson or Cory Cross playing over Doug Lynch? Ultimately seeing the success of other markets is what has to motivate this franchise. Minnesota had Cliff Ronning, Anaheim had Oates and Thomas. They both went further in the playoffs last year than the Oilers have been since 1991-92. There has to be something said about that.

Quote:
As for Vancouver's signing, it's clear that they are looking to fit the final parts of a cup team together but aren't they about 3 years too late for Keane to be really helpful? The guy's all used up.
If Keane was all used up Brandon Reid wouldn't be in Manitoba. If you are Burke and Crawford watching camp, you think that you put a lesser player on your roster than someone you thought could play better? Keane has 3 rings. The Oilers Roster has none.

Quote:
Personally I think they should have gone after Oates. I think he is still a better player than Morrison- couldn't imagine the damage Naslund Oates and Bertuzzi could do? But I guess Burke was looking for a bargain.
Like I said I don't intend to debate how good or not good Mike Keane is. It isn't a matter of this guy or that guy. Having one experienced guy that knows what it takes to win is an asset that this team hasn't had since the early 90s.

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10-09-2003, 08:44 AM
  #22
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You probably won't agree with my reasoning but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by slats432
What exactly is the kid going to learn and from whom at 8 minutes a game?
First, my reasoning of not signing a vet at this time is partly so the young guys can play more than 8 minutes a night.

If Ronning was brought in (for example), he pushes one kid that would otherwise be playing 16 minutes a night down the roster to play 6 minutes a night. The guy that was playing those 6 minutes prior to Ronning being signed is now sitting in the press box. The kid in the press box is now on a plane to Toronto. Isn't that talking a step backwards?

Second it gives the organization a better idea of which kids have the enough character to push themselves. In my opinion veteran influence should be used more in pushing the rest over the last hurdle than grooming them for their careers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slats432
One year of sitting beside Adam Oates for Torres, Chimera, etc etc will do more than that. All of that experience passed from the veteran is what is going to get us closer to the cup.
I agree, I just think the team should develop as a cohesive unit and determine their own identity before this step is taken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slats432
When you look at the defining moment indicated by Gretzky to the Oilers first cup is when Glen Sather paraded the team past the Isles dressing room after the 1983 loss. The Oilers took their lessons from the Islander veterans. Does anyone on this Oiler team have an idea what it takes to win?
I remember that. But the way I saw this developing is - the team developed on their own with out the veteran pressence, got close to their goal and THEN they experienced that all important lesson.(just want to point out that the lesson learned didn't come from a player in their own dressing room either, which is what you are suggesting we need.)

Remember they also did a great deal of learning on their own, such as the "miracle in manchester" debacle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by slats432
If they are never taught how to win, they will never push for a cup.
You don't teach winning. It comes from the desire each player has.
That is why I think Adam Oates isn't necessary right now. Let the kids show who has it in them and who doesn't. Let Lowe and MacT weed out the ones that don't (Dan Cleary anyone? here is a player that looked much better than he was when playing with a veteran in Doug Weight)

Granted you have to experience some success to reach the next level but I happen to believe it is most important to develop the chemistry and identity of the unit before winning is emphasised. I think Lowe has done a good job in this. He has rebuilt this team but has also kept enough guys around to allow them to compete and experience a little success in the process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slats432
Ultimately seeing the success of other markets is what has to motivate this franchise. Minnesota had Cliff Ronning, Anaheim had Oates and Thomas. They both went further in the playoffs last year than the Oilers have been since 1991-92. There has to be something said about that.
Only to a degree. Do you honestly believe that both of those teams will repeat their success this year? Are they both close enough to contending that next year they will be contending?
In Minnesota's case I think they had a Cinderella season even though they haven't completely built their team. They should develop into a contender in a few years but ultimately I think last year was an anomoly.

Anaheim rode a hot goaltender. It happens but it hardly makes them a contender. They are a half built team and the moves they made in the summer tells me that they will never be anything more.

I am much more happy to sit through a year or two of struggles with the Oilers to get to see just what this team can really do long term, than to look at Anaheim and wish we were in their position.

I don't want a team built for a hail mary run only to sink back where we started the years previous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slats432
If Keane was all used up Brandon Reid wouldn't be in Manitoba. If you are Burke and Crawford watching camp, you think that you put a lesser player on your roster than someone you thought could play better? Keane has 3 rings.
If Burke is looking for the exact same thing you are arguing the Oilers need, then isn't it obvious why Keane is there and Reid is in Manitoba?

I am not questioning the move, I am questioning the player they chose to fill the role. I equate the move to Dallas going after Lemieux last year. They brought in a "playoff warrior" to help them get over the hump and in the end he didn't help. He was simply to old, to slow and to unproductive.

All I was saying is, if Burke is looking for the leadership he would have been better off going with Oates because I think Oates has more game left in him.

A move like this suggests that Burke is looking for big things this year. Why bargain shop if that is the case, either you believe in the team or you don't.

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Old
10-09-2003, 09:38 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copperandblue

I am much more happy to sit through a year or two of struggles with the Oilers to get to see just what this team can really do long term, than to look at Anaheim and wish we were in their position.
c and b....we can disagree. I believe that listening to a veteran speak gives more to a young player than you can imagine. And I believe that winning is taught and learned.(Which is one of the things that we all were pleased about when Lowe was hired as GM.)

Teams that win have victory based on experience. Look back and tell me any team that didn't have a couple of strong veterans that had any sort of success. Everyone needs some sort of mentor to be able to understand the mechanics of winning.

I think that if you have one player a year that is within that catagory(and again, I want to avoid specific examples) then that enhances all of the youngsters not just the one you are getting in the lineup.

Would I rather have any of the players mentioned than Pisani? You bet. Would I rather have any of the players mentioned than Stoll? No. You have to look who is on your team and make your decisions based on the personnel. There are guys that added to this team as veterans could bump some players on our roster or even platoon with them.

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10-09-2003, 09:56 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slats432
Most pundits pick Vancouver to finish ahead of the Oil. If this is true then why is a veteran good enough to make the Canucks and not the Oilers?
Possible argument: teams closer to contending need vets, teams closer to rebuilding need to give young players experience because there's no other way. This alone could explain why Keane is a good fit for Vancouver but not Edmonton, even if you don't stoop to comparing team forward depth.

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10-09-2003, 01:04 PM
  #25
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Blech on veterans! Overrated hype! Oh I see, so while there are veterans who can add "leadership" and "savvy", these 26 year old "Kids" like Pisani are just too young, I guess they're supposed to add vim and vigor and youthful enthusiasm. I smell too many Hollywood movies here.

I've coached competitive sports teams for six years and played for another 10. Yes, there are some veterans who can add leadership qualities to a youthful but not every old person can do it (remember Glenn Anderson's second tour?) and not even every veteran leader is a fit for every lockerroom (as much as I love Messier, he did extremely little for the Vancouver Canucks. Linden is a much better fit in vancouver than mess).

You'd be surprised by how much poise some younger players come with these days. Sometimes they learn from other veteran players true, but sometimes they also learn from their coaches, or from their fathers, or brothers, or other teammates who might only be a couple of years older than themselves, or even they learn themselves. Give the kids a chance to play and learn. Not sit on the bench listening to some old graybeard has-been who's only good for 4th line duties preach. Honestly, why would a 20 year old budding star listen to a grizzled 4th line dude who only plays 6 minutes a night?

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