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Would somebody please put an end to Lemaire?

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Old
10-08-2003, 08:14 PM
  #1
fullmetalninja
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Would somebody please put an end to Lemaire?

Just got back from the Hawks/Wild game, and what can you say *snooze*. The league at some point has to make it clear to the refs that clutching and grabbing, picking and holding must be called every 30 seconds if its going on.

I have yet to watch the tape of the game(to see if its any different), but I mean it was pathetic tonight in person. For the Wild to triple the PP chances that the hawks had, was a joke.

Look I'm trying to be diplomatic about this. its like holding in football- you can call interference all the time in hockey, and the refs choose not to do it. But I'm not joking here, everytime a forward for the wild was backchecking- he was slowing down the nearest hawk. On the PP, the Wild would literally set a screen for their Dman to shoot a slap shot. When the hawks tried to get a forecheck going they would be held up or picked coming into the offensive zone.

Btw, Wild fans. Before you skewer me I just wanted you to know that Alexander Daigle was your best player tonight. I don't know if that's good or bad- but he was...

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Old
10-08-2003, 08:22 PM
  #2
Mizral
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The Wild are so frustrating, and I agree, the trap is ruining hockey.

However, it's sort of like the goalie pads & Giguere. They are following the rules as set. You can't blame them for wanting to win at all costs.

I'm lucky, I get to see the Canucks, pretty much the most exciting team in the league - or one of them - in terms of high octane offense & hits. And while I can't stand how the Wild play, I have to commend them for putting winning ahead of entertainment value. As long as they are winning, their fans will put up with it.

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Old
10-08-2003, 08:25 PM
  #3
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I think Daigle is going to turn it around this season.......and I watched the game, I totally agree ;/

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Old
10-08-2003, 08:25 PM
  #4
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Go Daigle!

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Old
10-08-2003, 08:38 PM
  #5
fullmetalninja
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But that's just it Mizral... they are not following the rules! They are getting away with it- that's different.

The hawks had 5 or 6 inteference penalties tonight. They were probably legit(although the one was a 2 minute penalty to the hawks because Brad Brown can't skate!). But don't call the hawks for ticky tack inteference calls when you do not call the Wild for the same damn thing.

For some reason, "passive" interference is just brushed aside- they have to fight through it type of mentality..... I'm sorry if you are going to call the lame ass holding the stick penalty, you have to call Daigle when he sets a basketball screen on a pk'r... you have to call a backchecking forward that is skiing, and you have to call a dman holding up a forward from getting into the corner to a loose puck.

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Old
10-08-2003, 08:43 PM
  #6
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"Boring hockey". "Clutching and grabbing".

The all-too-common lament of fans of inferior teams. This altruistic "for the good of the game" mantra is more boring than the trap itself, IMO. And it's insincere.

Seems to this fan that if one finds the Wild boring, one can avoid watching them. And, if one really finds the NHL so boring, one can easily find another sport. Seriously. And, if the unfairness of all the clutching and grabbing that has gone on in the sport since the beginning of time is too unbearable, the Ice Capades may be an alternative form of entertainment on ice.

If wide-open, pond hockey is what one wants, watch the New York Rangers. Wide open, exciting hockey....and six years without a playoff appearance.

Put an "end to Lemaire"? Punish success?

Hockey fans will always enjoy the game, whether it is tight-checking or homerun derby on ice. If this style doesn't appeal to the "casual fan" or the TV networks, too bad.

Just my opinion.

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Old
10-08-2003, 08:50 PM
  #7
Transplanted Caper
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Lemaire plays to his tam's strength...the Wild would be in the bopttom 3 in the West last year if they hadnt played the type of game they did

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Old
10-08-2003, 08:55 PM
  #8
PecaFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
The all-too-common lament of fans of inferior teams. This altruistic "for the good of the game" mantra is more boring than the trap itself, IMO. And it's insincere.

Seems to this fan that if one finds the Wild boring, one can avoid watching them. And, if one really finds the NHL so boring, one can easily find another sport. Seriously.
Huh? It's the fans of the *superior* teams complaining. The fans of the inferior teams love it that they win more than they should simply because the refs can't call 50 penalties a game.

As for not watching them, I don't have a choice when they come in to Vancouver and attach themselves like leeches to my fast skating, high scoring, non-trapping team.

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Old
10-08-2003, 08:57 PM
  #9
The Frugal Gourmet
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Hey, I'd like to point out that the Wild lost the game tonight and did not muster a single goal.

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Old
10-08-2003, 09:05 PM
  #10
Trottier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PecaFan
Huh? It's the fans of the *superior* teams complaining. The fans of the inferior teams love it that they win more than they should simply because the refs can't call 50 penalties a game.

As for not watching them, I don't have a choice when they come in to Vancouver and attach themselves like leeches to my fast skating, high scoring, non-trapping team.
Guess you are talking about that "inferior" team in NJ that's won three Cups in nine years, and made four Final appearances total. Or that "inferior" Ottawa team that deploys a hybrid trapping system.

As for your last sentence: like I said, the lament of fans of the losing side. You can have an exciting, fast-skating non-trapping team that won one round last spring. I'm sure the fans in Minnesota preferred a "boring" team that advanced to the Conference Finals.

Funny thing: winning never is boring. And the end justifies the means.

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Old
10-08-2003, 09:11 PM
  #11
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You're all missing another real big point on Lemaire's trapping style. Lemaire uses speed to basically kill his opponents. Problem is NO ONE IS FREAKING SPEEDY ON THE WILD ANYMORE EXCEPT DAIGLE!

We usually force turnovers in the neutral zone and create odd rushes. But right now without Dupuis and Gaborik we don't have very many speedy guys and some of our guys are getting a bit old.

 
Old
10-08-2003, 09:24 PM
  #12
mmbt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Funny thing: winning never is boring. And the end justifies the means.
More than that, a lot of the so-called exciting teams don't necessarily play better hockey ... a lot of times wide open games are the result of crappy defense rather than good offense, and that's no fun to watch.

I mean, is it "exciting," to watch teams cough up the puck and give up odd man rushes one after another? I suppose in a way it can be, but sometimes I find it frustrating to watch two teams make a boatload of defensive gaffes, which results in a high-flying type game only due to defensive incompetence as opposed to offensive brilliance.

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Old
10-08-2003, 09:32 PM
  #13
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Every team in the league traps, even Vancouver. A team couldn't get away with just offense in today's NHL. Vancouver doesn't trap as much as other teams, but I've seen the Canucks sit on a lead, so it's not like the Canucks are exempt from the trap.

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10-08-2003, 09:41 PM
  #14
Mizral
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hemskyfan
Every team in the league traps, even Vancouver. A team couldn't get away with just offense in today's NHL. Vancouver doesn't trap as much as other teams, but I've seen the Canucks sit on a lead, so it's not like the Canucks are exempt from the trap.
Oh, we do trap now and then. No question, Crawford retreats into a defensive shell on 2 goal leads against tough teams often. However, on an even keel, the Canucks never trap. I was kind of thinking of it on a even standard.

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Old
10-08-2003, 09:43 PM
  #15
guinness
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There's a fine line, I rather see a close game, with goalies making awesome saves on the other teams offensive stars and tons of physical play in between (see Oilers-Stars playoff hockey). But I can't crap like the Anaheim-NJ series; click, time to change the channel. I was watching Tigers baseball over that garbage called NHL hockey, not to mention that Berman was calling the games for ESPN. the NHL wants to attract viewers, but that kind of defensive play drives a lot away, save the fans of those teams and masochists.

If the NHL really cracked down on obstruction like they're supposed to, the Wild, NJ and Anaheim wouldn't have been nearly as successful las year. Clutch, grab, clutch, grab - yeah

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Old
10-08-2003, 10:48 PM
  #16
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I don't really think the Wild clutch and grab all that much. It's exponentially worse with teams like Nashville, Philadelphia and Anaheim. The Wild rely picture-perfect defensive zone positioning that is defined to a tee with Lemaire, then wait for a turnover and use blazing speed to score.

Boring as hell strategy, but not structured around clutching and grabbing.

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Old
10-08-2003, 11:14 PM
  #17
Trottier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness
If the NHL really cracked down on obstruction like they're supposed to, the Wild, NJ and Anaheim wouldn't have been nearly as successful las year. Clutch, grab, clutch, grab - yeah
So those teams are cheaters, boring and inferior. Let's throw in lucky, too while we're at it.

So what does it make all the teams they surpassed on the way to the Conference Finals and Finals?

It really won't hurt to say it: those three teams were outstanding last spring. And the Devils, along with Detroit and Colorado have been the class of the NHL for a decade.

All the rest is excuses and sore losing.

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10-08-2003, 11:54 PM
  #18
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Tired argument. The Wild tonite did not have a whole lot of talent on the ice , less speed than usual. They did enough though to earn some PP opportunities . I find it hard to believe your concern is the Wild when i looked at your Blackhawks tonite and saw a team that is going to give up a tremendous amount of scoring opportunities. When a Sutter is coaching you will not be a technically sound team, positioning is not the mantra as much as hard work and accountability. the Hawks defense is not great and Karpovtsev is not even hurt yet. I would say you should worry about your own team which certainly did not bring me out of my seat tonite. By the way daigle was very effective tonite in concurrence with some of the other posters.

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Old
10-09-2003, 12:06 AM
  #19
Freudian
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Give them five more years. Once they will reap the full benefits of their long term drafting strategy we will see how they play. Right now the team they have will dictate their game. When you don't have all the talent in the world it's hard to play a more freeflowing game. You have to rely on your system wearing the opponents down.

While it would be fun in a way if everyone played run and gun, the reality is that Minnesota fans would hate it because of the amount of losses.

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Old
10-09-2003, 01:23 AM
  #20
Trottier
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[QUOTE=Crystal(M)eth]Too bad? Hockey is about entertainment...that is why the league is running $300 million in the red.

Sorry, you don't find it entertaining. Why do you watch it?

The NHL tv contract is a joke...$5 million per team each fiscal year...compared to the NFL...which is at $70+ million per team...

A specious comparison. Like comparing a motor scooter with a Rolls Royce.

3/4 of the teams in the NHL need to rely on gate revenues just to scratch by.

As they always have. Even during the high scoring 80s.

Joe Average isn't going to turn on the tv to watch a bunch of talentless goons clutch and grab their way up and down the ice...

Yes, and your major concern is TV ratings and Joe Average. Sorry, not mine. By the way, "...a bunch of talentless goons..."? Are we talking about the same sport?

He wants to see not nec. goals, but scoring chances, end to end rushes, etc.

...And we should sell out the sport that some of us have watched and loved for years to Joe Average Fan. The game will evolve on its own, as it has before. Without outside interference. Worth noting that the NHL had all of the good things you mention up until recent years...and Joe Average Fan still ignored it.

You may not have the foresight to understand what the casual fan means to the league, but the NHL needs these fans badly. BADLY

Unless you care to compare resumes and wallets, I'd suggest not passing judgement on my economic foresight just because I don't agree with you.

The NHL needs the TV networks, no matter how much you think they don't, you don't have a full grip on sports economics if you disagree.

They do need more revenue, and a drag on expenses. My suggestion is that network TV will never embrace the sport. That's based on history. You suggest the game allow itself to be tailored for TV, on the assumption that that would even make a major difference in ratings.

The NCAA softball championships had higher ratings than the Stanley Cup...do you know how lame that is?

Why would that surprise you? When exactly has the NHL ever had good ratings in the US? Answer: never. Guess it always has been a lousy, boring sport. :p

The game needs to open up to appeal to the 'casual fan' you think the NHL should ignore....or many teams will soon be folding...maybe a team that you follow...

Recommended reading:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/playof...ory?id=1538933


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Old
10-09-2003, 02:59 AM
  #21
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The Wild is what happens when you dilute the talent base too much. Just horrible, horrible hockey. Hopefully we will get one silver lining to the inevitable lockout and that's contraction. Not that I am saying that Minnesota should be necessarily one of the teams to fold, I believe they have a great, knowledgeable fan base.
Blame it on Bettman... he has killed this great sport.

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Old
10-09-2003, 04:30 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
I don't really think the Wild clutch and grab all that much. It's exponentially worse with teams like Nashville, Philadelphia and Anaheim. The Wild rely picture-perfect defensive zone positioning that is defined to a tee with Lemaire, then wait for a turnover and use blazing speed to score.

Boring as hell strategy, but not structured around clutching and grabbing.
Nashville doesn't grab all that much. That was more confined to Cale Hulse, Bill Houlder and Karl Skrastins. Besides them, we are a blazing fast team without a need to clutch and grab.

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10-09-2003, 05:04 AM
  #23
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The simple truth is the Hawks clutched and grabbed last night. They were undisciplined and it lead to penalties. Big change on that team, with the young guys. More penalties should be expected. If you're a Blackhawks fan, I'd expect the penalties to go in the other team's favor for a little while. The Wild are one of the least penalized teams in the league, and it's not because there's a grand conspiracy by the NHL to not call penalties on them. The Wild have never been about clutching and grabbing. Clogging up the lanes, prevent flow, yeah, but not clutching and grabbing. And there are still plenty of fast guys on the team. Heck, the Wild lead in shots last night.. that's an improvement. 4th year in the league, give 'em some time.

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Old
10-09-2003, 05:45 AM
  #24
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Okay, I didn't see the game but I thought that I would add in my two cents regarding the "clutching and grabbing" discussion mainly because I'm also tired of it. I actually flipped channels during the Finals last year because it became so frustrating. That, and because I often thought I had somehow flipped to gay porn because of all the guys with their arms around each other.
Two misconceptions that I often see are 1) that the trap = "clutching and grabbing" and 2) that a fast paced, wide open game is the result of poor defense.
In response to 1), the trap involves positioning, more grabbing goes on but you can play the trap without it. I remember watching Detroit in the late 90's shut teams down with the left wing lock without much grabbing going on. Speed and positioning.
For 2), anyone see the series (especially game 7) between NJ and Ottawa in the playoffs. That was exciting hockey and NJ still played their system, at least as well as they could against Ottawa. Ottawa's players though forced NJ to use more speed than grabbing through their creativity. I don't think that the trap needs to go, but the grabbing and hooking (which Detroit is definitely guilty of its share) has to go.

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Old
10-09-2003, 06:33 AM
  #25
Surly Furious
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sigh, here we go again.

THE TRAP HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CLUTCHING AND GRABBING!

Ahh, I feel better now.

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