HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Top 10 Dman of All time?

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
10-20-2005, 09:45 PM
  #26
scribe114
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Detroit, Michigan
Country: United States
Posts: 76
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67
NHL Award and All-star Voting

Looking at Hart voting in the 50's Red Kelly 51 T3rd, 53 3rd, 54 2nd & 56 4th with 135 points, and Doug Harvey 55 5th, 56 5th, 57 5th, & 58 3rd with 87 points. Add in the fact that there were only half as many votes before 54, when the switched to first and second half voting, and it's obvious Kelly doesn't get enough respect as a great defenseman. (Harvey was the runner-up for the Hart in 61 with the NYR.)

Unanimous all-stars:
50-51: Milt Schmidt, C; Red Kelly, D 90 (18-0-0)
51-52: Gordie Howe, RW; Red Kelly, D; Terry Sawchuck 90 (18-0-0)
52-53: Gordie Howe, RW; Red Kelly, D 90 (18-0-0)
57-58: Doug Harvey, D 180 (18-0-0/18-0-0)
Agreed BM67 and when you look at the numbers overall Kelly seems to come out a little better, it's almost a dead heat. Harvey and Kelly broke in the same season 1947-48 and through the 1954-55 season Harvey was not considered to be Kelly's equal as evidenced by the Hart Trophy votings and All-Star selections. Kelly lost some ground in 1955-56 when he spent a great deal of time playing Center/LW to pick up the Wings offense, so the writers could not get a good read on him, hence a 2nd team All-Star selection but he finished ahead of Harvey in the Hart voting

The Norris was not really considered an "offensive" award so Harvey started racking up the Norris Trophies since he drove the train on the Power Play (well deserved) and the rest of the Canadiens defense corps after Bouchard retired became dim shadowy figures with the exeption of Tom Johnson. Kelly seemed to become a victim of his skill-set, play-making distribution in the Detroit offense, the rise of the Habs, and the quality of Defenseman coming into the league who became more important on offense (Johnson, Gadsby, Pronovost, Howell, Pilote)as the game evolved through the rest of the 50's.

Overall I broke Kelly out higher for these reasons.

His overall numbers

Award Shares

How he was really regarded in the context of his time; Kelly was the prototype of the 2-way Defenseman and the best athlete/skater of his era, only Beliveau was considered a better puck-handler.

When Kelly was traded to Toronto the Wings did not win squat for another 40 years Kelly won 4 more cups in Toronto.

When Harvey was traded to the Rangers, the Habs continued to win without him. Harvey never won another cup. (something to think about)

Peak Value (The value of a player at their highest established level of play) Harvey
Career Value ( The value of a player over the course of their career) Kelly

Just my opinion. I will try to do a top 10 Peak Value and Career Value for Defensemen when I get chance.

Did some editing hope it makes a little more sense.


Last edited by scribe114: 10-21-2005 at 12:50 AM.
scribe114 is offline  
Old
10-21-2005, 01:12 PM
  #27
Sens Rule
Registered User
 
Sens Rule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 22,214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by scribe114
Agreed BM67 and when you look at the numbers overall Kelly seems to come out a little better, it's almost a dead heat. Harvey and Kelly broke in the same season 1947-48 and through the 1954-55 season Harvey was not considered to be Kelly's equal as evidenced by the Hart Trophy votings and All-Star selections. Kelly lost some ground in 1955-56 when he spent a great deal of time playing Center/LW to pick up the Wings offense, so the writers could not get a good read on him, hence a 2nd team All-Star selection but he finished ahead of Harvey in the Hart voting

The Norris was not really considered an "offensive" award so Harvey started racking up the Norris Trophies since he drove the train on the Power Play (well deserved) and the rest of the Canadiens defense corps after Bouchard retired became dim shadowy figures with the exeption of Tom Johnson. Kelly seemed to become a victim of his skill-set, play-making distribution in the Detroit offense, the rise of the Habs, and the quality of Defenseman coming into the league who became more important on offense (Johnson, Gadsby, Pronovost, Howell, Pilote)as the game evolved through the rest of the 50's.

Overall I broke Kelly out higher for these reasons.

His overall numbers

Award Shares

How he was really regarded in the context of his time; Kelly was the prototype of the 2-way Defenseman and the best athlete/skater of his era, only Beliveau was considered a better puck-handler.

When Kelly was traded to Toronto the Wings did not win squat for another 40 years Kelly won 4 more cups in Toronto.

When Harvey was traded to the Rangers, the Habs continued to win without him. Harvey never won another cup. (something to think about)

Peak Value (The value of a player at their highest established level of play) Harvey
Career Value ( The value of a player over the course of their career) Kelly

Just my opinion. I will try to do a top 10 Peak Value and Career Value for Defensemen when I get chance.

Did some editing hope it makes a little more sense.
IO didn't rate Kelly as one of my top 10 D-Men because I believed he spent half his career as a centre for the Leafs but in hindsight I realized he spent 13 years as a D-Man for the Wings. He is one of the best D-Men ever, though Harvey does not slide in my opnion one bit.

Sens Rule is offline  
Old
10-21-2005, 04:07 PM
  #28
chooch*
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 946
vCash: 500
Guy Lapointe should be mentioned. He was the quarterback of the Habs defence from 71-78 until Robinson eclipsed him. He was a also great on Team Canada 72 as well as almost scoring the OT winner against Czechs in G2 of the 76 Canada Cup Finals (goal as time expired).

I dont know why he wasnt cited when they retired #5 last week.

chooch* is offline  
Old
10-21-2005, 04:38 PM
  #29
dru
Jarmo Unchained
 
dru's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: CBUS
Country: United States
Posts: 6,410
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to dru
What a great thread. Here's mine:

1) Orr
2) Harvey
3) Bourque
4) Shore
5) Potvin
6) Robinson
7) Pilote
8) Kelly
9) Lindstrom
10) Park

dru is offline  
Old
10-21-2005, 04:48 PM
  #30
AGraveOne
Registered User
 
AGraveOne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 2,138
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to AGraveOne
i think ranking dmen is a difficult proposition...cause of the two distinct types - offensive ones and defensive ones. It seems that points production outshadows the stay-at-home dmen.

So i figure in all these lists...Orr is the obvious #1 - he has god-like status.

I don't know the old-timers at all...but in the era i have watched (since mid 80s) i don't see how any defenseman made a bigger impact for his team than Scott Stevens. He was pure dominance.

AGraveOne is offline  
Old
10-21-2005, 09:41 PM
  #31
arrbez
bad chi
 
arrbez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,981
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to arrbez
Quote:
Originally Posted by AGraveOne
i think ranking dmen is a difficult proposition...cause of the two distinct types - offensive ones and defensive ones. It seems that points production outshadows the stay-at-home dmen.

So i figure in all these lists...Orr is the obvious #1 - he has god-like status.

I don't know the old-timers at all...but in the era i have watched (since mid 80s) i don't see how any defenseman made a bigger impact for his team than Scott Stevens. He was pure dominance.
Bourque, Chelios, and MacInnis were all better than Stevens in my books

arrbez is offline  
Old
10-25-2005, 01:21 AM
  #32
jiggs 10
Registered User
 
jiggs 10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Hockeytown, ND
Country: United States
Posts: 3,541
vCash: 500
Orr
Bourque
Robinson
Lidstrom
Potvin
Harvey
Shore
Coffey
Red Kelly
Brad Park

jiggs 10 is offline  
Old
10-25-2005, 01:56 AM
  #33
Jyroe Habs Fan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 653
vCash: 500
1. Bobby Orr
2. Doug Harvey
3. Red Kelly
4. Ray Bourque
5. "Big Bird" Larry Robinson
5. Denis Potvin
6. Paul Coffey
7. Serge Savard - Ask anyone who had to play him how he controlled the game.
8. Pierre Pilote
9. Doug Lidstrom
10. Chris Chelios - I'd take him on my team anytime.

Jyroe Habs Fan is offline  
Old
10-25-2005, 02:27 AM
  #34
sparr0w
Registered User
 
sparr0w's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 16,384
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyroe Habs Fan
1. Bobby Orr
2. Doug Harvey
3. Red Kelly
4. Ray Bourque
5. "Big Bird" Larry Robinson
5. Denis Potvin
6. Paul Coffey
7. Serge Savard - Ask anyone who had to play him how he controlled the game.
8. Pierre Pilote
9. Doug Lidstrom
10. Chris Chelios - I'd take him on my team anytime.
Hmm... that mean Nick Harvey is #2?

sparr0w is offline  
Old
10-25-2005, 03:31 AM
  #35
Marcus-74
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 165
vCash: 500
[QUOTE=Jyroe Habs Fan]7. Serge Savard - Ask anyone who had to play him how he controlled the game[QUOTE]

Or how they got fooled by his "Spinarama" (though Savard himself got burned once in a while when trying to do his trademark move).


Last edited by Marcus-74: 10-25-2005 at 04:50 AM.
Marcus-74 is offline  
Old
10-25-2005, 07:47 AM
  #36
DynamiteKid
Registered User
 
DynamiteKid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Stony Plain
Country: Canada
Posts: 685
vCash: 500
[QUOTE=Marcus-74][QUOTE=Jyroe Habs Fan]7. Serge Savard - Ask anyone who had to play him how he controlled the game
Quote:

Or how they got fooled by his "Spinarama" (though Savard himself got burned once in a while when trying to do his trademark move).

Isn't that Denis Savard?

DynamiteKid is offline  
Old
10-25-2005, 08:32 AM
  #37
GB
Registered User
 
GB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: UK
Country: United Kingdom
Posts: 4,728
vCash: 50
Send a message via ICQ to GB
Quote:
Originally Posted by DynamiteKid
Isn't that Denis Savard?
They both had spin moves, but Serge was first.

BTW nice avatar

GB is offline  
Old
10-25-2005, 09:15 AM
  #38
pei fan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,536
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider
Good list, mine is very similar. I'll restrict this to the NHL only, but only because that's what I'm most familiar with. I haven’t seen every player on this list, but I think I’ve done enough reading/watching videos to have an informed opinion.

1. Bobby Orr. There's nothing he couldn't do. Orr was by far the best offensive blueliner ever and was excellent defensively. Perhaps the greatest skater of all-time, strong checker, elevated his play in the post season, deadly on both the powerplay and penalty kill. Three Hart's, two Conn Smythe's, eight Norris's.
2. Eddie Shore. By all account he was an excellent defensive player and one of the strongest, fiercest defensemen in NHL history. He was great offensively and led defensemen in scoring five times. A true competitor and warrior if there ever was one. Shore is the only defenseman to win four Hart trophies, and would probably have 5-8 Norris trophies if they were around back then. (I give Shore the edge over Harvey largely because of his 4-0 lead in Hart trophies).
3. Doug Harvey. Take this with a grain of salt since I've only seen him on video, but Harvey is perhaps the greatest defensive player of all-time. His ability to control the tempo of the game to meet his teams' needs was incredible. Good hitter, great playmaker. Seven Norris trophies in eight years.
4. Ray Bourque. An incredible blend of consistency and dominance. He was a legitimate Norris contender every season of his career. Logged a ton of ice time and was great on the PP and PK. Great goal-scorer and playmaker, underrated hitter and great defensively. Excellent playoff performer. Won 5 Norris's. Bourque did everything very well for two decades.
5. Red Kelly. Arguably the greatest offensive defenseman until Orr. Excellent powerplay quarterback with outstanding offensive skills. Extremely durable and played 30-40 minutes per game. Great skater, good defensively. Very disciplined, meaning he didn't force his team to kill a lot of penalties. Won one Norris, would have had more if they were around earlier in his career.
6. Denis Potvin. Did everything well on one of the greatest dynasties of all time. An elite defensive player and deadly hitter. An excellent playmaker and the best goal-scoring defenseman of all time, after Orr and Coffey. Three Norris’s in four years.
7. Brad Park. The only reason Park doesn’t have three or four Norris trophies is because his prime coincided with that of Orr. Great offensive instincts and a dangerous hitter. Deadly on the powerplay, but also a good penalty killer. Comparable to Pronger in style, but was much better.
8. Paul Coffey. The second best offensive defenseman ever (after Orr), and the second best skater ever (after Orr). His ability to bring the puck up the ice, find and open position, or to dish the puck off to a teammate was truly breathtaking. I disagree with those who say that he was overrated and poor defensively. Coffey was average defensively, and I’d gladly take an average defensive player if he scores 120+ points. Three Norris’s.
9. Larry Robinson. Logged a ton of ice time on perhaps the greatest and deepest team in NHL history. Good playmaker, strong hitter, and excellent defensively. Two Norris’s and a Conn Smythe.
10. Nicklas Lidstrom. Lidstrom is the sublime blueliner: he does everything well with incredible poise and efficiency. Has been among the top blueliners in the league, offensively and defensively, for his whole career. The fact that he doesn’t take a lot of penalties is a good thing: it allows him to spend more time on the ice, and it doesn’t force the Wings to kill a lot of penalties. A first-team all star for six years in a row and has a Conn Smythe.

Honourable mentions go to Chelios, Seibert (the most underrated ten-time all-star in history), Pilotte, Horton, Salming, and Langway, who were all contenders for the #10 spot.
Very nice post.Personally I like Harvey as the number 2 defenceman but that's
a well balanced list.You're right about Seibert and Gadsby is another underrated
defenceman.

BTW Trahans99 hil Housley is not one of the top 100 defenceman of all time,
let alone the top 10.

pei fan is offline  
Old
10-26-2005, 01:54 AM
  #39
monster_bertuzzi
registered user
 
monster_bertuzzi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 32,600
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pei fan
BTW Trahans99 hil Housley is not one of the top 100 defenceman of all time,
let alone the top 10.
Get namin', I could use a laugh...

monster_bertuzzi is offline  
Old
11-06-2005, 11:18 PM
  #40
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hôlle
Posts: 31,632
vCash: 500
Bobby Orr
Doug Harvey
Raymond Bourque
Denis Potvin
Larry Robinson
Slava Fetisov
Paul Coffey
JC Tremblay
Niklas Lidstrom
Rod Langway

MXD is online now  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:11 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2017 All Rights Reserved.