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Well, well, Mr. Savard: Houle's picks aren't that bad after all...

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10-09-2003, 02:47 AM
  #1
deandebean
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Well, well, Mr. Savard: Houle's picks aren't that bad after all...

Last season, André Savard was trying very hard to push his draft choices thru the lazy Montreal media, who was buying it all the way, while downgrading those of Reggie.

Well, look at it today: Hainsey will probably get the nod instead of Komisarek. Hossa is in. So is Ribs. So is Ryder. So is Ward.

Still waiting for the 1st batch of Savard's prospects to make it to the big show. Plenakec, judging by Julien's comments, doesn't seem in the Habs' future plans. Higgins is a sure bet. So is Komi. But the rest...hmmmmmm.


Avons-nous surévalués les choix de M. Savard? D'autant plus qu'ailleurs dans la Ligue nationale, PLUSIEURS jeunes joueurs débuteront la saison avec leur grand club respectif. Ici, le talent ne semblait pas y être...

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10-09-2003, 02:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deandebean
Last season, André Savard was trying very hard to push his draft choices thru the lazy Montreal media, who was buying it all the way, while downgrading those of Reggie.

Well, look at it today: Hainsey will probably get the nod instead of Komisarek. Hossa is in. So is Ribs. So is Ryder. So is Ward.

Still waiting for the 1st batch of Savard's prospects to make it to the big show. Plenakec, judging by Julien's comments, doesn't seem in the Habs' future plans. Higgins is a sure bet. So is Komi. But the rest...hmmmmmm.


Avons-nous surévalués les choix de M. Savard? D'autant plus qu'ailleurs dans la Ligue nationale, PLUSIEURS jeunes joueurs débuteront la saison avec leur grand club respectif. Ici, le talent ne semblait pas y être...
What comments are you referring to? as far as i know his original comments which i saw on RDS had him saying we had too many forwards like him this year and he named two players (Ribeiro and Perreault). Notice how he said this year.... The other one i have heard I think is bull since i've never seen it on tv is where he supposively makes the above comment but also names Koivu and then goes on to say that Plekanec isnt in his plans (ever). That sounds like bull and if he had said such a comment in public im sure Gainey wouldnt have been too pleased....you dont go around hurting your prospects' confidence whether he really is in your plans or not since he could be traded and you could lower his trading value....the only thing he mentioned was to start off the year...

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10-09-2003, 03:10 AM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deandebean
Last season, André Savard was trying very hard to push his draft choices thru the lazy Montreal media, who was buying it all the way, while downgrading those of Reggie.

Well, look at it today: Hainsey will probably get the nod instead of Komisarek. Hossa is in. So is Ribs. So is Ryder. So is Ward.

Still waiting for the 1st batch of Savard's prospects to make it to the big show. Plenakec, judging by Julien's comments, doesn't seem in the Habs' future plans. Higgins is a sure bet. So is Komi. But the rest...hmmmmmm.


Avons-nous surévalués les choix de M. Savard? D'autant plus qu'ailleurs dans la Ligue nationale, PLUSIEURS jeunes joueurs débuteront la saison avec leur grand club respectif. Ici, le talent ne semblait pas y être...
You should probably wait a few years before making these statements...

Hainsey, Hossa, Ribs, Ryder, and Ward still haven't proven anything at the NHL level. Also 2 or 3 of those guys are too old to be able to be sent down because of the waiver rules, it's basically their last chance to prove themselves...

Savard's guys are still young. Just because some teams are giving chances to guys that age doesn't mean that Montreal can afford to. Montreal has to many older highly paid players playing with the club. Most of those contracts expire this year, so expect to see more of Savard's picks in the lineup next year... On some other teams Pleks and Higgs probably would have stuck around, same for Komi (if he gets sent down instead of Hainsey).

Personally I'm just happy to see that our system has some depth...

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10-09-2003, 04:43 AM
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And what's about Terry Ryan, Matt Higgins and Eric Chouinard ??

Savard's picks were really better than Houle's picks.

Houle chose Ward instead of Marian Hossa ..
Savard chose Komisarek, Higgins, Kastitsyn and Perezhogin.. Is that bad?? Hell NO!

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10-09-2003, 05:07 AM
  #5
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Am I hearing right? Somebody is actually trying to argue that Houle drafts better than Savard?

Won't...dignify...with.......response.

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10-09-2003, 05:07 AM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sYn
And what's about Terry Ryan, Matt Higgins and Eric Chouinard ??

Savard's picks were really better than Houle's picks.

Houle chose Ward instead of Marian Hossa ..
Savard chose Komisarek, Higgins, Kastitsyn and Perezhogin.. Is that bad?? Hell NO!

Prospects are all suspects until they make the big show. Never forget that. As far as I know, Houle has got 4-5 of them in the big show. Which is much better than what his predecessor had done the last 5 years of his tenure. Andre Savard? Yes, the kids are still young, but some of his young guns were overblown by Savard himself last season.

In ALL his interviews, he was passing over Houle's picks to promote his own picks. Those who really follow the Habs on a everyday basis can attest to that. How many times did he rave avec Higs and Komi or Perezhogin, while not saying a damn word about Ryder, Ward, Hainsey, Hossa and the rest of Houle's picks?

Higgins and Komi are great picks. As for Perezhogin, the jury is still out. And Kastitsyn, who knows? Until they make it to the big show, we'll never know. You can gloat about them as much as you can, it won't do squat until they make it.

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10-09-2003, 05:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habber
Am I hearing right? Somebody is actually trying to argue that Houle drafts better than Savard?

Won't...dignify...with.......response.

Never would I imply that. I'm just stating the fact that while Savard was praising ad nauseam his own picks, those of Houle were neglected. Wrongfully so. Michael Ryder (and you'll find out pretty soon), if given a chance to play in this league, will enventually play an important role on a winning team. He,s got the talent and the intelligence to do so. With Savard at the helm, I'm pretty sure that wouldn't have happened. But he's more Gainey's type of player.

Houle was a bad gm. But I found it ridiculous that Savard thought of his picks and his picks only as the future of les Glorieux.

Si Savard était encore en poste, est-ce que les jeunes de Houle auraient eu préséance comme c'est le cas aujourd'hui? Permettez-moi d'en douter.

As for Plekanec's future with the Habs, even though I love this kid, Julien's comments (probably shared by Gainey) are pretty much self explenatory. He's small and Gainey favors bigger players. We can't have 2 small centermen at the same time in the lineup.

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10-09-2003, 05:15 AM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HabsoluteFate
What comments are you referring to? as far as i know his original comments which i saw on RDS had him saying we had too many forwards like him this year and he named two players (Ribeiro and Perreault). Notice how he said this year.... The other one i have heard I think is bull since i've never seen it on tv is where he supposively makes the above comment but also names Koivu and then goes on to say that Plekanec isnt in his plans (ever). That sounds like bull and if he had said such a comment in public im sure Gainey wouldnt have been too pleased....you dont go around hurting your prospects' confidence whether he really is in your plans or not since he could be traded and you could lower his trading value....the only thing he mentioned was to start off the year...

You don't read La Presse. Matthias Brunet has quoted him saying this: "Il pourrait jouer dans la Ligue nationale un jour, que ce soit avec nous ou avec un autre club." That DOES say a lot about his future with Bob Gainey.

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10-09-2003, 05:19 AM
  #9
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Originally Posted by All-Star
You should probably wait a few years before making these statements...

Hainsey, Hossa, Ribs, Ryder, and Ward still haven't proven anything at the NHL level. Also 2 or 3 of those guys are too old to be able to be sent down because of the waiver rules, it's basically their last chance to prove themselves...

Savard's guys are still young. Just because some teams are giving chances to guys that age doesn't mean that Montreal can afford to. Montreal has to many older highly paid players playing with the club. Most of those contracts expire this year, so expect to see more of Savard's picks in the lineup next year... On some other teams Pleks and Higgs probably would have stuck around, same for Komi (if he gets sent down instead of Hainsey).

Personally I'm just happy to see that our system has some depth...

All-Star
I do agree with you; the Habs have depth. But do you remember Savard's comments about Houle's prospects last season? He never, ever talked about them. As if they didn't count. Well, today, I see the results. And you're right about the "highly paid players".

I saw Dallas play yesterday. Even if they have a great lineup full of millionnaires, there is space for some special young talents on it. Look at Chicago.

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10-09-2003, 06:15 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deandebean
Prospects are all suspects until they make the big show.
And? Who in the ones you named in your 1st post made it? They made the team alright, but didn't prove a thing in the NHL and won't automatically do so. Bit of a biased question you got for us there...

Look at Ribeiro's age (23), Ward's (24), Hainsey's (22), Hossa's (22) and Ryder's (23) and then compare with the Savard era picks you named in this thread: Komisarek (21), Higgins (20), Plekanec (20), Perezhogin (20) and Kastsitsyn (18!). Do I need to explain why this comparison is useless and also why no one should actually go and praise Houle's picks BEFORE they actually prove something in the NHL, which none of them did?

BTW a lot would agree that Komisarek, even one year younger, is now a better Dman than Hainsey.

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10-09-2003, 07:10 AM
  #11
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[QUOTE=.... The other one i have heard I think is bull since i've never seen it on tv is where he supposively makes the above comment but also names Koivu and then goes on to say that Plekanec isnt in his plans (ever). That sounds like bull and if he had said such a comment in public im sure Gainey wouldnt have been too pleased....you dont go around hurting your prospects' confidence whether he really is in your plans or not since he could be traded and you could lower his trading value....the only thing he mentioned was to start off the year...[/QUOTE]



I certainly agree with you on this point!!

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10-09-2003, 07:17 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deandebean
Never would I imply that. I'm just stating the fact that while Savard was praising ad nauseam his own picks, those of Houle were neglected. Wrongfully so. Michael Ryder (and you'll find out pretty soon), if given a chance to play in this league, will enventually play an important role on a winning team. He,s got the talent and the intelligence to do so. With Savard at the helm, I'm pretty sure that wouldn't have happened. But he's more Gainey's type of player.

Houle was a bad gm. But I found it ridiculous that Savard thought of his picks and his picks only as the future of les Glorieux.

Si Savard était encore en poste, est-ce que les jeunes de Houle auraient eu préséance comme c'est le cas aujourd'hui? Permettez-moi d'en douter.

As for Plekanec's future with the Habs, even though I love this kid, Julien's comments (probably shared by Gainey) are pretty much self explenatory. He's small and Gainey favors bigger players. We can't have 2 small centermen at the same time in the lineup.
Some very strong points here, deandebean!!!!

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10-09-2003, 07:30 AM
  #13
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This thread has a pro-Houle, anti-Savard spin. One year ago today, if you had asked Houle if Ward or Ryder would ever play for the Habs, he would have concluded no. Houle didn't bring Ryder up for a single game, and Ward played very few during Houle's years. The fact that they're playing today is due to two things: their hard work, particularly on skating, in the past year or two, and the coaching of Claude Julien in Hamilton.

Other posters have correctly pointed out that the Savard picks are several years younger than Houle's and therefore haven't matured. I take particular issue with the comment about Plekanec. I have seen him several times and am convinced he has a future in the NHL. Would anyone want to bet that Plekanec won't replace Perreault after this season? I'd bet on Plekanec.

It's ridiculous to assume that because Komisarek isn't dressing for tonight's game he's inferior to Hainsey. He's still with the team, and I wouldn't be surprised to see him in uniform against Toronto because Julien expects a more antagonistic game.

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10-09-2003, 07:39 AM
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I took the trouble of looking up deandebean's previous posts. About Hainsey, he said he "looked just plain lost" in the preseason games. Does that mean that Komisarek was lost even more? deandebean never said that in the past. What's he trying to prove?

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10-09-2003, 08:00 AM
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Savard picks,

Komisarek, Perezhogin, Milroy, Plekanec, Jarventie, Himelfarb, Archer, Ujick, Higgins, Linhart, Lambert, Deveaux, Ferland, Korneev, Kastsitsyn, Urquhart, Lapierre, O'Byrne, Locke, Stewart, Heino-Lindberg, Flood, Korpikari, Halak, Bonneau.


That's 3 drafts, with an average age of 19. How many 19 year olds play in the NHL on one team? Not many, it will take 5 years before these picks make their mark on average.


Houle picks,

Ward, Mikkola, Sidulov, Chouinard, Ribeiro, Beauchemin, Markov, Dwyer, Ryder, Kruchinin, Murray, Buturlin, Lindsay, Thinel, Shasby, Dyment, Tarasov, Marois, Hainsey, Hossa, Balej, Eneqvist, Larrivee, Glenn, Selig, Puurula.

not all of his picks were listed just the bigger names. Going from '97 to '00. Average age around 23, these guys have a lot more experience then Savard's picks. It takes a lot of time to see how a player develops.

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10-09-2003, 08:21 AM
  #16
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Originally Posted by montreal
It takes a lot of time to see how a player develops.

This is true, at least in the vast majority of cases!

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10-09-2003, 08:24 AM
  #17
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Gms

It's unfair to blast Houle for the job he did as GM (as many Montrealers tend to do). I agree that he was not good at his job, but in an interview he gave about a year or two ago, he said that for the first few years he was lost (no experience, just filling in because the organisation he adored called him into action)... he said he only got the hang of things in his last two seasons where he turned up a late-round steal in Markov and some decent picks earlier.

It is also unfair to blast Savard for his comments last season... he was getting a very rough ride from the fans and the press over Brisbois and the coaching and his trades and contracts to Audette, etc. Hell, i'd point out my strengths too!! When your job is on the line, you don't go around touting the picks of your predecessor who was fired for being inept... you distance yourself from that.

The age difference in the players makes a comparison impossible... for those that say that Ward made the team, you must recall that those were VERY lean years when Darby was playing on a scoring line, and Guren was one of our top D prospects... it's taken Jason another 4 years to develop his game to an NHL level... wait until Higgins, Perezoghin, Komi, milroy, etc are 23-24 before you say that they aren't as good as Houles... etc.

As for the comments regarding Plekanec, i'd challenge anyone to say that the kid doesn't have an NHL future (elsewhere or here if we are lucky... the kid will be good; gut feeling). He's a great skater, he's solid physically, he's got good vision... he hasn't been spectacular, but if i recall he's still young, maybe one of the youngest players in his draft year?? (check me on that) Also, you don't keep players that have no future in your club until the last cuts are made... seems a little counter-intuitive to me.

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10-09-2003, 08:41 AM
  #18
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Originally Posted by habsfansam
It's unfair to blast Houle for the job he did as GM (as many Montrealers tend to do). I agree that he was not good at his job, but in an interview he gave about a year or two ago, he said that for the first few years he was lost (no experience, just filling in because the organisation he adored called him into action)... he said he only got the hang of things in his last two seasons where he turned up a late-round steal in Markov and some decent picks earlier.

It is also unfair to blast Savard for his comments last season... he was getting a very rough ride from the fans and the press over Brisbois and the coaching and his trades and contracts to Audette, etc. Hell, i'd point out my strengths too!! When your job is on the line, you don't go around touting the picks of your predecessor who was fired for being inept... you distance yourself from that.

The age difference in the players makes a comparison impossible... for those that say that Ward made the team, you must recall that those were VERY lean years when Darby was playing on a scoring line, and Guren was one of our top D prospects... it's taken Jason another 4 years to develop his game to an NHL level... wait until Higgins, Perezoghin, Komi, milroy, etc are 23-24 before you say that they aren't as good as Houles... etc.

As for the comments regarding Plekanec, i'd challenge anyone to say that the kid doesn't have an NHL future (elsewhere or here if we are lucky... the kid will be good; gut feeling). He's a great skater, he's solid physically, he's got good vision... he hasn't been spectacular, but if i recall he's still young, maybe one of the youngest players in his draft year?? (check me on that) Also, you don't keep players that have no future in your club until the last cuts are made... seems a little counter-intuitive to me.

Very well said!!!!!

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10-09-2003, 08:49 AM
  #19
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Sorry but this thread is ridiculous, Houles picks were terrible, he cost us many years of developpement with his atrocious first rounders. Yes I will agree that Markov, Hossa and Hainsey were good pick ups, but two of those havent even proved themselves. Heck, Ward is nowhere near the projection he had back at the draft. And saying Savard didn't mention Houles draft choices is not true. He talked very well about Hainsey and Hossa and its not like there was any other players to talk about. Ryder and Ward were longshots and at the same date last year no one expected them to ever wear an NHL uniform. I hope you'll at least wait for guys like Perezhogin, Higgins, Komisarek and Kastitsyn to show what they can do. I'm willing to bet they'll be a bigger part of this team(can't wait to see Kastitsyn play). Also, don't you find it funny that Hainsey, Hossa and Ribeiro arent exactly the hardest workers? Must be the Savard influence right?

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10-09-2003, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Corey
I took the trouble of looking up deandebean's previous posts. About Hainsey, he said he "looked just plain lost" in the preseason games. Does that mean that Komisarek was lost even more? deandebean never said that in the past. What's he trying to prove?

Corey, I personnally didn't say that I like Hainsey better than Komisarek. In fact, in the game against Toronto, Hainsey looked lost like crazy. I loooove Komisarek. I've been drooling about this guy since his arrival.

What I'm saying (or rather writing) is that Savard himself (not me) raved about his own picks, while neglecting Houle's. The way Ward was treated is proof enough.

Gainey's got a different attitude. A much better one. Talent is the premise. But you need grit. And you need size. Something Savard overlooked in some of his selections, because he and Madden repeated time after time that talent mattered, not size nor grit. The only gritty player they selected was Higgins, a "can't miss" according to some scouts at the time.

What Pleks demonstrated in pre-season surprised me, because the reports from Hamilton last season were not all that positive. I loved his play. But the way Julien responded to his demotion lets me (and many others) to believe that unless he litterally burns up the AHL (which he could do), there's no place for him here. That's all I was implying.

As for Komisarek, he didn't look lost, but he tried to do more than he was supposed to. Thus, he turned the puck way too often in his own zone. Komisarek will never be a great puck carrier. And during the pre-season, he tried that. It's not in him.

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10-09-2003, 08:53 AM
  #21
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Originally Posted by Habsaku
Sorry but this thread is ridiculous, Houles picks were terrible, he cost us many years of developpement with his atrocious first rounders. Yes I will agree that Markov, Hossa and Hainsey were good pick ups, but two of those havent even proved themselves. Heck, Ward is nowhere near the projection he had back at the draft. And saying Savard didn't mention Houles draft choices is not true. He talked very well about Hainsey and Hossa and its not like there was any other players to talk about. Ryder and Ward were longshots and at the same date last year no one expected them to ever wear an NHL uniform. I hope you'll at least wait for guys like Perezhogin, Higgins, Komisarek and Kastitsyn to show what they can do. I'm willing to bet they'll be a bigger part of this team(can't wait to see Kastitsyn play). Also, don't you find it funny that Hainsey, Hossa and Ribeiro arent exactly the hardest workers? Must be the Savard influence right?


False. He hardly if not never mentionned the Houle prospects. Some posters here and elsewhere even noted that, I can recall. When Brunet or De Foy interviewed Savard, the only names mentionned were: Komi, Higgins and Perezhogin.

Andrei Markov is the Habs best offensive defenceman. And will be for a long time. We haven't seen the best yet. Him only makes the draft year that Houle picked him a great one.

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10-09-2003, 08:54 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal
Savard picks,

Komisarek, Perezhogin, Milroy, Plekanec, Jarventie, Himelfarb, Archer, Ujick, Higgins, Linhart, Lambert, Deveaux, Ferland, Korneev, Kastsitsyn, Urquhart, Lapierre, O'Byrne, Locke, Stewart, Heino-Lindberg, Flood, Korpikari, Halak, Bonneau.


That's 3 drafts, with an average age of 19. How many 19 year olds play in the NHL on one team? Not many, it will take 5 years before these picks make their mark on average.


Houle picks,

Ward, Mikkola, Sidulov, Chouinard, Ribeiro, Beauchemin, Markov, Dwyer, Ryder, Kruchinin, Murray, Buturlin, Lindsay, Thinel, Shasby, Dyment, Tarasov, Marois, Hainsey, Hossa, Balej, Eneqvist, Larrivee, Glenn, Selig, Puurula.

not all of his picks were listed just the bigger names. Going from '97 to '00. Average age around 23, these guys have a lot more experience then Savard's picks. It takes a lot of time to see how a player develops.

You'd be surprised at the number of 19-20-21 year olds playing in the league, with much better teams.

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10-09-2003, 08:56 AM
  #23
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Originally Posted by deandebean
because the reports from Hamilton last season were not all that positive

What???? He had a very positive rookie year last season, I think your mistaken him for Balej. And BTW, the best way to draft is by picking the BPA, not the biggest(a la Houle and calgary Flames) but the most talented(like the wings, the devils, the avalanche, the sens,[...]), I really hope we'll not change our draft mentality because chosing by need is kinda ridiculous considering a player takes 5 years to developp and your needs might not be the same.

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10-09-2003, 08:58 AM
  #24
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Originally Posted by Habsaku
Sorry but this thread is ridiculous, Houles picks were terrible, he cost us many years of developpement with his atrocious first rounders. Yes I will agree that Markov, Hossa and Hainsey were good pick ups, but two of those havent even proved themselves. Heck, Ward is nowhere near the projection he had back at the draft. And saying Savard didn't mention Houles draft choices is not true. He talked very well about Hainsey and Hossa and its not like there was any other players to talk about. Ryder and Ward were longshots and at the same date last year no one expected them to ever wear an NHL uniform. I hope you'll at least wait for guys like Perezhogin, Higgins, Komisarek and Kastitsyn to show what they can do. I'm willing to bet they'll be a bigger part of this team(can't wait to see Kastitsyn play). Also, don't you find it funny that Hainsey, Hossa and Ribeiro arent exactly the hardest workers? Must be the Savard influence right?

Houle's picks were a 100 % better than those of SERGE Savard. This is the man that dragged the Habs in the basement. Even Jason Ward is a better pick than Jose Charbonneau, you must admit...

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10-09-2003, 09:01 AM
  #25
Habsaku
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Quote:
False. He hardly if not never mentionned the Houle prospects

If he didnt care about the Houle prospects, he would've traded them. SJ wanted Hainsey, Hossa or Komisarek, Savard just said no. If he didnt like them he wouldnt have kept Hainsey for 20 games, he wouldnt have recalled Hossa and he wouldn't have kept Markov. He didn't talk about players like Ward and Ryder simply because tearing up the AHL does not guarantee NHL success. What he didnt like about Hainsey and Hossa is they didnt work hard enough. These guys should not get praise if they don't deserve it.

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