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Bertuzzi Hypothetical

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Old
10-09-2003, 11:09 AM
  #26
John Flyers Fan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
Then Bertuzzi isn't moved.

If you can't sign him you will move him. The Cancuks will NEVER get a package that good for Bertuzzi.

Flyers have assets to make a deal including:

Williams
Vandermeer
Woywitka
Seidenberg
Carter
Richards
Somik
Handzus
Draft picks
etc.
etc.

Verterans would also be available if the Canucks were interested in that route as well.

Remember if the Canucks are saving $$$$ in the deal then they will not get full value in return.

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Old
10-09-2003, 11:11 AM
  #27
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I'm expecting a huge year from Big Babe this season. He's sniffed celebrity status and tasted success; he'll be trying for a repeat. He's my pick to win Hart this season and barring injury I think he's got a good shot.

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Old
10-09-2003, 11:19 AM
  #28
Peter Griffin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
If you can't sign him you will move him. The Cancuks will NEVER get a package that good for Bertuzzi.

Flyers have assets to make a deal including:

Williams
Vandermeer
Woywitka
Seidenberg
Carter
Richards
Somik
Handzus
Draft picks
etc.
etc.

Verterans would also be available if the Canucks were interested in that route as well.

Remember if the Canucks are saving $$$$ in the deal then they will not get full value in return.
It's unlikely the Canucks will move him anyway, at least not for another two seasons. If were talking about moving him now, they are in the driver's seat. Bertuzzi's contract expires at the end of this season, the Canucks would then qualify him and hold his rights for another year. The Canucks can wait for hte best offer if they want, or they could just sign him like they probably will.

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Old
10-09-2003, 11:19 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
Handzus scored 25 goals and 53 points the year before for the Blues, that's better then his numbers today. As for Nagy, he was a bluechip prospect at the time.
Handzus was nowhere near the defensive player he was when the deal was made. Nagy was a good prospect, but his stock has risen since the deal was made.

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Old
10-09-2003, 11:25 AM
  #30
Peter Griffin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
Handzus was nowhere near the defensive player he was when the deal was made.
He was still a quality defensive center and was putting up better offensive numbers than he is now. I'd say his stock is about the same.

Quote:
Nagy was a good prospect, but his stock has risen since the deal was made.
Of course his stock has risen, but at the time, he was a sought after prospect.

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Old
10-09-2003, 11:45 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
The problem with comparing it to the Tkachuk deal is that everyone looks at the players as they are now and it looks like St. Louis gave up a lot. Handzus and Nagy weren't anywhere near the players they are today.
Handzus was coming off his best season, Nagy was a great young prospect winger with an obvious upside, Taffe was just selected in the first round, Handzus' value has gone own since and Nagy's up by quite a bit.

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Old
10-09-2003, 11:45 AM
  #32
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The same panicing was going on last year about Jovo...Jovo was asking for 7mil, Jovo negotiations weren't going well, the Canucks were likely gonna have to dump him, blah, blah, blah.

Burke has managed to sign every core player on this roster so far.

Bertuzzi still has limited negotiation rights.

Unless the Canucks crash this season, I really don't see Bertuzzi being dealt.

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Old
10-09-2003, 11:47 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
Handzus was nowhere near the defensive player he was when the deal was made. Nagy was a good prospect, but his stock has risen since the deal was made.
Disagree stongly...Handzus was a stud that year with St louis. most mage were projecting 70 pts + in the following year. He was very solid defensively.

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Old
10-09-2003, 12:00 PM
  #34
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It is also unlikely Bertuzzi, now 28, would become a UFA before age 30 even under a new agreement, should that agreement lower the present minimum age to become a UFA. Any lowering of UFA ages were phased in a year at a time in the past agreement & likely it will be similar in any new agreement. Add that to the fact that Bertuzzi's qualifying offer & any filling for aribitration falls under the present agreement & so Vancouver is likely assured of at least 1 year after this contract runs out. The earliest an arbitrated contract would run out would leave Bertuzzi at age 30 anyway.

this sounds like wishfull thinking to me. I have heard from a few people like Bob mackenzie talk about lowering the ufa age but you are the first to have any insight into the practical implementation of the new cba agreement.

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Old
10-09-2003, 12:05 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thor dyck
this sounds like wishfull thinking to me. I have heard from a few people like Bob mackenzie talk about lowering the ufa age but you are the first to have any insight into the practical implementation of the new cba agreement.
It's quite simple actually. Bertuzzi's contract expires at the end of this season. At that time, the Canucks will make a qualifying offer to him, which would effectively assure them that his rights are there's for another season. This would be under the current CBA, and by most accounts is considered a "contract". When the current CBA expires, the old contracts remain, so why would a qualifying offer be any different? Unless the NHL decides to dismiss all of the contracts from the last CBA, which they would never do, Bertuzzi won't be a UFA for at least two years from now.

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Old
10-09-2003, 12:08 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thor dyck
It is also unlikely Bertuzzi, now 28, would become a UFA before age 30 even under a new agreement, should that agreement lower the present minimum age to become a UFA. Any lowering of UFA ages were phased in a year at a time in the past agreement & likely it will be similar in any new agreement. Add that to the fact that Bertuzzi's qualifying offer & any filling for aribitration falls under the present agreement & so Vancouver is likely assured of at least 1 year after this contract runs out. The earliest an arbitrated contract would run out would leave Bertuzzi at age 30 anyway.

this sounds like wishfull thinking to me. I have heard from a few people like Bob mackenzie talk about lowering the ufa age but you are the first to have any insight into the practical implementation of the new cba agreement.
It's not really wishfull thinking at all to think that the current CBA will be in effect until it expires. Bertuzzi's contract expires during the current CBA. Since I can't see the Canuck's not qualifying him, he'll likely remain their property for at least one year after his current contract.

It's wishfull thinking on other teams' parts to think that for some bizzare reason, the owners will scrap the CBA before it expires and lower the UFA age, making Bertuzzi a UFA after his current contract.

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Old
10-09-2003, 12:48 PM
  #37
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I can see how his rights could be tied up for next year as well. That makes sense. I guess the question is : what is bertuzzi's value if he is ufa in two years?

Tough situation for vancouver. Their team is built to go for it now (sorry mizral, I don't think the sedins are getting any better). Without bertuzzi, they may not be a playoff team. With him, they could win the cup. He is that important to thier chances.

IMO, if he was 24 and sure to be under contract for the next 5 years, he would have the highest trade value of any player in the league.

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Old
10-09-2003, 12:56 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYVanfan
Despite the fact that I love this guy and want him to be a Canuck for his whole career.....there have been rumours lately that the salary renogotiations are not going as absolutely swimmingly as the Canuck brass would hope.
What is your definition of "swimmingly"??? Because compared to the Hvlat and Comrie negotiations the Bertuzzie negotiations are going quite well. No hold outs. No bad mouthing. Canucks gave Bertuzzi and offer. His agent rejected it and gave a counter-proposal. And now the Canucks are looking at it. Why would you say they were going bad???

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Old
10-09-2003, 01:03 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
If you can't sign him you will move him. The Cancuks will NEVER get a package that good for Bertuzzi.

Flyers have assets to make a deal including:

Williams
Vandermeer
Woywitka
Seidenberg
Carter
Richards
Somik
Handzus
Draft picks
etc.
etc.

Verterans would also be available if the Canucks were interested in that route as well.

Remember if the Canucks are saving $$$$ in the deal then they will not get full value in return.
I can't see Bertuzzi being moved for at least a couple years, Burke knows that with Bertuzzi we will always be a playoff team. However, if we did move him, we could surely get a package like that, and Clarke would be the first guy to offer it. The Canucks hold ALL (and i emphasize this) the cards. Not the other teams, not Bertuzzi. Burke is arguably the best gm in the league, and i loved what he did with Bure. He'll surely get a great deal for Bertuzzi.

One thing that has been overlooked is Bertuzzi's star power. Put him in a city like Chicago or Los Angeles, and this guy could draw the fans. So even though they may not want to pay him, i'd put those teams at the top of the list. Sure, Chicago is cheap as anyone, but they know a good opportunity when they see it. Both those teams are ideal to trade with the Canucks, since they have so much young talent.

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Old
10-09-2003, 02:14 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thor dyck
It is also unlikely Bertuzzi, now 28, would become a UFA before age 30 even under a new agreement, should that agreement lower the present minimum age to become a UFA. Any lowering of UFA ages were phased in a year at a time in the past agreement & likely it will be similar in any new agreement. Add that to the fact that Bertuzzi's qualifying offer & any filling for aribitration falls under the present agreement & so Vancouver is likely assured of at least 1 year after this contract runs out. The earliest an arbitrated contract would run out would leave Bertuzzi at age 30 anyway.

this sounds like wishfull thinking to me. I have heard from a few people like Bob mackenzie talk about lowering the ufa age but you are the first to have any insight into the practical implementation of the new cba agreement.
Like anyone else, I can't predict the future & I don't take credit for this analysis. I just agree with this as a reasonably likely senerio should a lower UFA age be implimented. I do know that most labour contracts build from the past or from contracts that address similar situations. This aspect of what likely would happen should the new agreement involve a lowering of the UFA age was discussed quite thuroughly on Sports Talk last night. You can access the CKNW audio vault of that show if you would like to hear it.

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Old
10-09-2003, 02:43 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thor dyck
Their team is built to go for it now (sorry mizral, I don't think the sedins are getting any better).
We'll see if the Sedins are getting any better or not. This is 'their' year to shine: 4th season in the NHL, their skating has improved, they're shooting the puck more. They seem to have clicked with King.

Daniel seems to have recovered from his back surgery, Henrik has been quoted as saying he's going to be more "selfish" with the puck this year and both of them showed up in camp in the best shape of anyone.

This all sounds like they're doing all the right things to me. Time will tell. Breakout or bust season I think.

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Old
10-09-2003, 03:31 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thor dyck
I can see how his rights could be tied up for next year as well. That makes sense. I guess the question is : what is bertuzzi's value if he is ufa in two years?

Tough situation for vancouver. Their team is built to go for it now (sorry mizral, I don't think the sedins are getting any better). Without bertuzzi, they may not be a playoff team. With him, they could win the cup. He is that important to thier chances.

IMO, if he was 24 and sure to be under contract for the next 5 years, he would have the highest trade value of any player in the league.
I agree, Bertuzzi is important to the Canucks and for that reason, I doubt they'll trade him.

I don't believe it's all that tough of a situation for Vancouver. Negotiations have just started. There is no indication that the Canucks won't hammer out a deal sometime before this coming summer. Like I said earlier, the same panic insued over Jovo's contract last season and Burke got the job done.

How often are first offers accepted? This thread is an overreaction to the bargaining process.

PS The Sedins aren't getting any better? Bold statement. How many 23 year old players don't get any better? There's a reason why a forward's prime is said to start at around 25/26.

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Old
10-09-2003, 03:49 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty
I agree, Bertuzzi is important to the Canucks and for that reason, I doubt they'll trade him.

I don't believe it's all that tough of a situation for Vancouver. Negotiations have just started. There is no indication that the Canucks won't hammer out a deal sometime before this coming summer. Like I said earlier, the same panic insued over Jovo's contract last season and Burke got the job done.

How often are first offers accepted? This thread is an overreaction to the bargaining process.

PS The Sedins aren't getting any better? Bold statement. How many 23 year old players don't get any better? There's a reason why a forward's prime is said to start at around 25/26.
I thought the Jovo negotiations would have been a lot tougher after Pronger signed for 10 million...thought for sure Jovo was going to hold fast at 7. If Burke can sign Jovo he can get Bert under wraps at 6.5.

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Old
10-09-2003, 04:01 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYVanfan
Despite the fact that I love this guy and want him to be a Canuck for his whole career.....there have been rumours lately that the salary renogotiations are not going as absolutely swimmingly as the Canuck brass would hope.
Where do you come up with this crap? Last interview with Pat Morris he said he loves to work with the Canucks organization and that the two parties were just trading offers right now. Yesterday he said there was a 50/50 chance of signing a new contract before the upcoming season started.. Doesn't look like anything happened but 50/50 chance with 1 whole year to go is much better odds than a lot of other situations.

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10-09-2003, 04:04 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyrisweb
Where do you come up with this crap? Last interview with Pat Morris he said he loves to work with the Canucks organization and that the two parties were just trading offers right now. Yesterday he said there was a 50/50 chance of signing a new contract before the upcoming season started.. Doesn't look like anything happened but 50/50 chance with 1 whole year to go is much better odds than a lot of other situations.
He/she's just a concerned fan. We're all on pins 'n needles about the signing of our elite players b/c we all want the best for Vancouver.

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10-09-2003, 04:19 PM
  #46
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I can see him fetch more than he is worth. It's the Lindros factor. GMs get a hardon for big players who combine size-grit-skill and are willing to pay pretty much everything to get it.

Bertuzzi is a very good player, but given the fact that he would have so big demands salarywise for Van to even consider trading him, I don't think people should throw 2-3 great young players Vancouvers way. Havlat+1st should be the upper limit to what he should fetch. I suspect it will be much more if he gets traded though.

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10-09-2003, 04:50 PM
  #47
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if for some reason he would be moved...this is the way i'd see it

To Vancouver:

Martin Havlat
high pick or good prospect

To Ottawa:

Todd Bertuzzi
low pick or mediocre to decent prospect

Ottawa is stacked on RW but are thin on top line LW. Bertuzzi is a natural LW'er and could help form one heck of a deadly line in Ottawa (with Hossa and Bonk or Spezza).

Vancouver gets a young, and very skilled RW who can play well in both zones plus a higher pick or a good prospect.

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10-09-2003, 05:46 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty
I agree, Bertuzzi is important to the Canucks and for that reason, I doubt they'll trade him.

I don't believe it's all that tough of a situation for Vancouver. Negotiations have just started. There is no indication that the Canucks won't hammer out a deal sometime before this coming summer. Like I said earlier, the same panic insued over Jovo's contract last season and Burke got the job done.

How often are first offers accepted? This thread is an overreaction to the bargaining process.

PS The Sedins aren't getting any better? Bold statement. How many 23 year old players don't get any better? There's a reason why a forward's prime is said to start at around 25/26.
I have watched the sedins many times. They have never really struck me as being an elite talent. They seem to be pretty good 3rd liners with a chance to turn into mike kean type players. Without guys like that, you don't win a cup. They will improve to be at least excellent excellent third liners. That isn't an insult to them except they were drafted as being bertuzzi type players.

I just have never seen first line skill when watching them. Just my opinion, feel free to disagree.

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Old
10-10-2003, 12:53 PM
  #49
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Quote:
They will improve to be at least excellent excellent third liners.
Maybe even second liners is a possibility. That was a beauty of a goal that King scored last night from Daniel and Henrik... hilite reel worthy. I'm expecting *hoping* to see a lot of more of that pretty passing ending in a goal.

I'm predicting a breakout year for both of them. They 'will' get better imo, I can tell already by the pregame games as well as the game last night. They just seem stronger, more focused and are shooting the puck more.

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10-10-2003, 06:03 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuck_Nut
He/she's just a concerned fan. We're all on pins 'n needles about the signing of our elite players b/c we all want the best for Vancouver.
I just wonder if he pulled his info about Bertuzzi out of thin air? As I already said contract talks were going well. During yesterdays game, it was confirmed that they were so close that Bertuzzi/Morris decided to extended their deadline for a deal by 24 hours. If things were getting ugly they would have called it quits not continue talks..


Pat Morris said he sent 2 contract offers to the Canucks so far, 1 a 3year deal, and the other a 5 year deal. I hope he signs for 5 years, that would be great.

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