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U18 Russian team

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Old
12-18-2015, 05:13 PM
  #76
cska78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Scherbak is the only non-defensemen I can think of who has benefited from the CHL.
Radulov, Kucherov (arguably), Namestnikov (arguably)

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12-18-2015, 06:09 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
Radulov, Kucherov (arguably), Namestnikov (arguably)
Kucherov was doing fine before CHL. Hard to say what would have happened to the other two.

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Old
12-18-2015, 08:21 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantomas View Post
Kucherov was doing fine before CHL. Hard to say what would have happened to the other two.
just as hard to say what would have happened to those who degraded in the CHL. let's be fair and I am the biggest opponent of players leaving.

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12-18-2015, 09:02 PM
  #79
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Yeah, I am not a knee-jerk type on CHL development either, unlike say Peter.

The problem with CHL development though is two-fold: a) it breaks the flow of a player's development at home, forcing that player to re-learn their game and b) it is very unpredictable, because a player can wind up with a bad organization just as easily as he can wind up with a good organization (this depends largely on the agent).

There are also some other factors involved here, such as the support of parents. Kucherov's parents were not only wealthy but apparently based in North America, so of course he had that safety net. Many players don't.

Regardless of how one cuts this, players leaving for the CHL is bad for Russian organized hockey.

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Old
12-19-2015, 10:20 AM
  #80
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yup, agreed

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Old
12-19-2015, 11:37 AM
  #81
Yakushev72
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Problems with making the adjustment to moving from Russia to NA:

1) On average, your NA teammates will be far ahead of you in years of experience playing in highly organized, fiercely competitive leagues with 50 or 60-game schedules.

2) You go from being "one of the guys" to a kind of an oddity, a foreigner and an outsider who doesn't speak the language.

3) The style of hockey you grew up playing is not acceptable and will have to be abandoned if you are to progress.

4) Your status as an outsider will preclude you from exercising a leadership role on the team, and you will more likely feel pressure to just be quiet and go with the flow!

Not all of these factors are 100% bad - they can provide the basis for growth if you can overcome them - but few do, for understandable reasons.

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Old
12-19-2015, 01:20 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wings5 View Post
This will cause more kids to pull a Korostelev and leave at 13/14. If kids want to go they will go.
I disagree. The number of kids going to NA would decrease a lot.

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12-19-2015, 01:21 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malkinfan View Post
More than 50 players from MHL countries in the CHL, dozens more in Tier 2 junior A leagues and NCAA. I suspect the # will be greater in the future.
But the question is: why do they keep leaving when it is clear that staying in Russia is better for their development?

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12-19-2015, 01:23 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Part of me says that I wish there were a way, but banning free movement would be overly restrictive and take away their right to seek a job wherever they wish.
Russia don't need to ban them. Just ban short contracts for junior players. 13-14 year old players either sign 5-7 year contracts or they do have to quit competitive hockey in Russia altogether.

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12-19-2015, 01:24 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
In fact, all the players who are great in the NHL - Ovechkin, Malkin, Tarasenko, and so on, developed in Russia, while the high profile players that have migrated to the CHL (Yakupov, Grigorenko,) have failed to reach expected potential. I can't think of anyone who has come to the CHL from Russia who has clearly benefitted from it, but many who have fallen off the face of the Earth, so to speak!
And still they keep leaving. How stupid these kids are?

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12-19-2015, 01:45 PM
  #86
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As for Russian hockey overall, we should ask can Russia afford to lose 10-15 best players from every age group to North America and have their development and careers destroyed there?

Think what this means for Russian hockey for the span of 10 years? Russia will lose up to 100-150 most talented players, and have to settle for lesser talented players in international tournaments.

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Old
12-19-2015, 07:09 PM
  #87
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I'm sure these kids love Russia deep down, but their personal commitment is to put Russia in their rear view mirror and find a new life away from Russia. If it doesn't work out for them, as it doesn't for most, then they will likely come back to try to start over in Russia. But that situation will tend to regulate itself, with the RHF and KHL not needing to do anything. They will come back as damaged goods, with no bargaining power at all to get a decent contract. Plus, they will have been away from Russian hockey for a while, so they will find themselves failing to fit in to the local hockey culture once again!

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Old
12-20-2015, 07:17 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
Radulov, Kucherov (arguably), Namestnikov (arguably)
lol, nope. radulov and kucherov'd be fine if they'd stayed in russia. namesnikov yes, but he's a bit stunted offensively, nothing to go bragging about

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Old
12-20-2015, 09:58 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kp61c View Post
lol, nope. radulov and kucherov'd be fine if they'd stayed in russia. namesnikov yes, but he's a bit stunted offensively, nothing to go bragging about
probably yes, but unless you have a passage to another reality - all you are saying - is a hypothesis

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12-20-2015, 10:03 AM
  #90
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I have high expectations for this U18 team and project. In a way, it's our only chance to truly surpass the current system, which is not enough to WIN gold medals consistently. And that's what we should be aiming towards.

Hopefully this will help keep some talents for an extra year in Russia. Or at least enough to bring them to KHL Rookie level when they turn 19. I can already see 4-5 candidates like Rubtsov and Maltsev who could contribute in KHL next season and be worthy of quality minutes.

We need a good, almost revolutionary system, to ensure we stay top 3 hockey nation for the next 10-15 years. I think this project is a good start.

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Old
12-20-2015, 01:00 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
probably yes, but unless you have a passage to another reality - all you are saying - is a hypothesis
You are both correct in your arguments, I think, but unfortunately, its not the guys like Radulov and Kucherov who are immensely talented who are being hurt by this migration. Its the guys like Lazarev and Scherbak who lack decisive talent who will fall out of the system.

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12-22-2015, 08:47 AM
  #92
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I've mentioned this in the Prospect forum, but do you guys think that a situation with defensemen is different?

I mean all the same factors apply, but NA clearly develops blue-liners better.

I mean, it still remains to be seen if Zadorov, Provorov, Sergachyov and Valiev will succeed.

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Old
12-22-2015, 06:06 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxV View Post
I've mentioned this in the Prospect forum, but do you guys think that a situation with defensemen is different?

I mean all the same factors apply, but NA clearly develops blue-liners better.

I mean, it still remains to be seen if Zadorov, Provorov, Sergachyov and Valiev will succeed.
Its better only because Russian defense development is fairly poor, I still think it breaks the player and heavily relies on whether they can buy into na system. Also it creates a gap in playing styles when they come to nt.

They need to find ways to improve the sytem but more importantly reward kids who choose to play defense and create a cutlure where kids would want to become the next fetisov.

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Old
12-23-2015, 04:03 AM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
Radulov, Kucherov (arguably), Namestnikov (arguably)
Yep, the "traitor to Humanity" Radulov who actually completed his training as a Jedi in Russia. Kucherov who has played 30 something games in the CHL and Namestnikov who spent his (very) early life in NA and had less problems with language and lifestyle.

That's the point. Where is that prototypical guy who left for the CHL at age 17 and turned out NHL superstar?

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12-23-2015, 04:06 AM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxV View Post
I've mentioned this in the Prospect forum, but do you guys think that a situation with defensemen is different?

I mean all the same factors apply, but NA clearly develops blue-liners better.

I mean, it still remains to be seen if Zadorov, Provorov, Sergachyov and Valiev will succeed.
Sweden and Finland do develop quite usable defenceman, no? Let's learn from them, let's send players there instead of NA. The thing is their hockey is still european, much closer to what the guys learn in Russia.

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12-23-2015, 10:37 AM
  #96
Yakushev72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atas2000 View Post
Sweden and Finland do develop quite usable defenceman, no? Let's learn from them, let's send players there instead of NA. The thing is their hockey is still european, much closer to what the guys learn in Russia.
A very practical and useful solution, but the problem is that it leaves the player's agent out. Sweden and Finland don't pay as much to all of the future NHL superstars as does NA. Once the NHL superstar-in waiting, all these 17-year old Russian migrants, are separated from their Russian roots, they become much more dependent on their agents for everything. So you see, it doesn't work out well for the agent to send the kids to Sweden and Finland.

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12-23-2015, 10:52 AM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
A very practical and useful solution, but the problem is that it leaves the player's agent out.
Good.

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Old
12-23-2015, 10:59 AM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
A very practical and useful solution, but the problem is that it leaves the player's agent out. Sweden and Finland don't pay as much to all of the future NHL superstars as does NA. Once the NHL superstar-in waiting, all these 17-year old Russian migrants, are separated from their Russian roots, they become much more dependent on their agents for everything. So you see, it doesn't work out well for the agent to send the kids to Sweden and Finland.
I am reading an interview of russian agent Shumi Babaev at championat.ru He said something like that "agents like Gandler sign many players, take them to abroad and do not help/call them when the players need it" Of course I dont know if his words are true... maybe just envy....

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Old
12-23-2015, 12:10 PM
  #99
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Do these kids live with someone?

A Russian family or something?

I'm assuming that in most cases their families don't come with them.

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Old
12-23-2015, 03:01 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atas2000 View Post
Sweden and Finland do develop quite usable defenceman, no? Let's learn from them, let's send players there instead of NA. The thing is their hockey is still european, much closer to what the guys learn in Russia.
Nah, Russia should not "send" players to anywhere but keep them in Russia.

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