HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Hockey Talk by Country > Russia
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

U18 Russian team

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-23-2015, 03:02 PM
  #101
Peter25
Registered User
 
Peter25's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 8,791
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
A very practical and useful solution, but the problem is that it leaves the player's agent out. Sweden and Finland don't pay as much to all of the future NHL superstars as does NA. Once the NHL superstar-in waiting, all these 17-year old Russian migrants, are separated from their Russian roots, they become much more dependent on their agents for everything. So you see, it doesn't work out well for the agent to send the kids to Sweden and Finland.
Can Russia do something to make life a bit harder for these "agents"? Within the laws of course.

Peter25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-23-2015, 03:13 PM
  #102
Caser
Moderator
@RUSProspects
 
Caser's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Riga/Yaroslavl
Country: Russian Federation
Posts: 3,163
vCash: 500
In the 'Russia Vs. CHL' there is an important advantage that staying in Russia has - the CHL-NHL agreement, which means that players from CHL are ineligible for AHL while they are at U20 age. This agreement really caused trouble for guys like Zadorov, Grigorenko, Provorov - guys who should be playing against men already after the draft year, not staying in juniors. Probably Abramov will suffer from it too, as while he is already over ppg at QMJHL, for obvious reasons he probably won't be NHL ready in two years, so he will be stuck in juniors for that time.

But that's so simple just in theory, as there is a situation that strongest hockey schools in Russia are usually the ones affiliated with strongest KHL teams, which means that there is a trouble getting into pro hockey even while staying in Russia. I think the best example is Ak Bars - seems like they just don't care about their alumnis. As a possible solution for that situation I see development of VHL affiliates - teams like SKA, Dynamo and CSKA are already starting to use this opportunity, but just them is not enough, of course. Playing in the VHL would make the adjustment to KHL more easy when player is given the opportunity, comparing to a call-up from MHL team. Also a player will know that even if there isn't a place on KHL roster for him yet, he won't have to be stuck at juniors. On the other hand, VHL will also raise league's level from having talanted MHL alumnis playing there, which is good for hockey development in Russia overall.


P.S. Post number 1000, I should double-check if I still have a real life.

Caser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-23-2015, 03:21 PM
  #103
vorky
@vorkywh24
 
vorky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,187
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caser View Post
In the 'Russia Vs. CHL' there is an important advantage that staying in Russia has - the CHL-NHL agreement, which means that players from CHL are ineligible for AHL while they are at U20 age. This agreement really caused trouble for guys like Zadorov, Grigorenko, Provorov - guys who should be playing against men already after the draft year, not staying in juniors. Probably Abramov will suffer from it too, as while he is already over ppg at QMJHL, for obvious reasons he probably won't be NHL ready in two years, so he will be stuck in juniors for that time.

But that's so simple just in theory, as there is a situation that strongest hockey schools in Russia are usually the ones affiliated with strongest KHL teams, which means that there is a trouble getting into pro hockey even while staying in Russia. I think the best example is Ak Bars - seems like they just don't care about their alumnis. As a possible solution for that situation I see development of VHL affiliates - teams like SKA, Dynamo and CSKA are already starting to use this opportunity, but just them is not enough, of course. Playing in the VHL would make the adjustment to KHL more easy when player is given the opportunity, comparing to a call-up from MHL team. Also a player will know that even if there isn't a place on KHL roster for him yet, he won't have to be stuck at juniors. On the other hand, VHL will also raise league's level from having talanted MHL alumnis playing there, which is good for hockey development in Russia overall.


P.S. Post number 1000, I should double-check if I still have a real life.
OT: KHL will consider if there is a need for "new farm league", it was announced by Chernyshenko a few days ago. I dont know how new farm league would affect VHL. The problem with VHL is a fact that independent clubs dont like to develop "not us players". Some KHL clubs want new farm league to consist only of KHL affiliated clubs.

vorky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-23-2015, 04:39 PM
  #104
Fantomas
Registered User
 
Fantomas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 7,168
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxV View Post
Do these kids live with someone?

A Russian family or something?

I'm assuming that in most cases their families don't come with them.
Usually they live with Canadian families. CHL teams typically rely on families in the community to house players.

Fantomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-23-2015, 04:41 PM
  #105
Fantomas
Registered User
 
Fantomas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 7,168
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
Can Russia do something to make life a bit harder for these "agents"? Within the laws of course.
The players deserve to have their rights and interests represented, but not by capitalist agents. I would suggest some form of union that would fight for their rights within the country.

Fantomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-23-2015, 11:13 PM
  #106
Passionis
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 130
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantomas View Post
The players deserve to have their rights and interests represented, but not by capitalist agents. I would suggest some form of union that would fight for their rights within the country.
That's actually a great idea.. hopefully something like this will happen soon

Passionis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-25-2015, 07:59 AM
  #107
vorky
@vorkywh24
 
vorky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,187
vCash: 500
FHR Board approved Development strategy of russian kid and youth hockeyFHR launching inspectors who will control training process in youth teams. R.Rotenberg: "we can not afford 80% youth players to move to NA to train there.".

vorky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-25-2015, 02:23 PM
  #108
Peter25
Registered User
 
Peter25's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 8,791
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
FHR Board approved Development strategy of russian kid and youth hockeyFHR launching inspectors who will control training process in youth teams. R.Rotenberg: "we can not afford 80% youth players to move to NA to train there.".
At least they recognize this now. Tretiak (who was a louse GM for the RHF) didn't even seem to care about those kids moving to NA en masse.

Now concrete steps and action is needed to stop the flow.

Peter25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-25-2015, 02:38 PM
  #109
Fantomas
Registered User
 
Fantomas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 7,168
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
FHR Board approved Development strategy of russian kid and youth hockeyFHR launching inspectors who will control training process in youth teams. R.Rotenberg: "we can not afford 80% youth players to move to NA to train there.".
"Inspectors", pfeh.

Fantomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-25-2015, 02:46 PM
  #110
vorky
@vorkywh24
 
vorky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,187
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantomas View Post
"Inspectors", pfeh.
Maybe I used wrong word? Something like that exists in Czech rep, "inspectors" are called regional coaches there. Czechs copied this from Sweden.

btw there is russian articles about inspectors. http://rsport.ru/hockey/20151225/887097374.html

vorky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-25-2015, 03:09 PM
  #111
Fantomas
Registered User
 
Fantomas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 7,168
vCash: 500
I am skeptical about the efficacy of these "revizory" to solve the problem we speak of here because it does not appear that their responsibilities will address many of the concerns of the players who leave to play abroad (such as their confidence in opportunities for advancement).

Fantomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-25-2015, 11:24 PM
  #112
wings5
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,106
vCash: 500
How about adopting the recent Czech system of having some reserve slots for u20 players in the KHL? It should be a requirement with more of these slots existing in the VHL. I don't believe it would affect the quality of the league that much if it is the top young players in the country that are playing in the pro leagues. At least then the players that would leave for the CHL would be lower-midtier prospects who are likely not at the NT level and have less chance of success.

wings5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2015, 02:55 AM
  #113
vorky
@vorkywh24
 
vorky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,187
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantomas View Post
I am skeptical about the efficacy of these "revizory" to solve the problem we speak of here because it does not appear that their responsibilities will address many of the concerns of the players who leave to play abroad (such as their confidence in opportunities for advancement).
I share your skepticism but I want to believe for better times.

As I know federation approved complex strategy of development the hockey in Russia. It consists of building new rinks, methodics for coaches, teaching of coaches, refs etc. Federation copied the model of development in US, CAN, SWE, FIN, CZ, USSR. All changes (lets hope for real changes) started to happen after Arkady Rotenberg came to power in hockey federation this year.

vorky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2015, 02:56 AM
  #114
vorky
@vorkywh24
 
vorky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,187
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wings5 View Post
How about adopting the recent Czech system of having some reserve slots for u20 players in the KHL? It should be a requirement with more of these slots existing in the VHL. I don't believe it would affect the quality of the league that much if it is the top young players in the country that are playing in the pro leagues. At least then the players that would leave for the CHL would be lower-midtier prospects who are likely not at the NT level and have less chance of success.
Czechs copied it from KHL.

vorky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-03-2016, 04:47 AM
  #115
Raptor1990
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Devínska Nová Ves
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 386
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
FHR Board approved Development strategy of russian kid and youth hockeyFHR launching inspectors who will control training process in youth teams. R.Rotenberg: "we can not afford 80% youth players to move to NA to train there.".
And completely loss everything there...
In their young minds: I need to go to NA to gain a lot of points in some QMJHL, OHL or WHL club to be drafted high and then end in AHL...
Yakupov, Grigorenko and a lot of their equals.

Kucherov seems to be only exception.

Raptor1990 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2016, 03:58 PM
  #116
Atas2000
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 6,571
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raptor1990 View Post
And completely loss everything there...
In their young minds: I need to go to NA to gain a lot of points in some QMJHL, OHL or WHL club to be drafted high and then end in AHL...
Yakupov, Grigorenko and a lot of their equals.

Kucherov seems to be only exception.
Kucherov is no exception. He never played a full season in the CHL.

Atas2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-14-2016, 06:22 PM
  #117
cska78
Registered User
 
cska78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: USA
Country: Russian Federation
Posts: 11,715
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to cska78 Send a message via Yahoo to cska78
Kucherov is an exception in a way, that CHL didn't have enough time to rebuild him into a work horse. The same thing they did to Svechnikov and I have no clue what happened to Grigorenko...

cska78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-15-2016, 09:03 PM
  #118
wings5
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,106
vCash: 500
Russia was being compared to Finland after the WJC. Some Russian posters were calling the Russian team slow with less effort until really needed. I want some of you to take a short look at the type of hockey being played in Finland's u-20 league and compare it to the MHL. . Not the whole video ( unless you want to ) but just get a general idea. To me it seems like they are always playing fast hockey with full out effort. It is the same as years ago but there is more skill and larger players with skill. You guys have a better idea of MHL than I but believe there is slower build up in play and more individual efforts.



Last edited by wings5: 01-15-2016 at 09:08 PM.
wings5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-16-2016, 11:31 AM
  #119
Yakushev72
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,753
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wings5 View Post
Russia was being compared to Finland after the WJC. Some Russian posters were calling the Russian team slow with less effort until really needed. I want some of you to take a short look at the type of hockey being played in Finland's u-20 league and compare it to the MHL. . Not the whole video ( unless you want to ) but just get a general idea. To me it seems like they are always playing fast hockey with full out effort. It is the same as years ago but there is more skill and larger players with skill. You guys have a better idea of MHL than I but believe there is slower build up in play and more individual efforts.

Obviously, the quality of Finnish junior hockey is very high, or they wouldn't have won 2 Gold Medals in the last 3 years. But the assertion that Russian forwards are comparatively slow was held by 1 or 2 posters, and only then, as their personal observation, with nothing to really support their conclusion. There is a clear problem with Russian skating quality on Defense, but that probably has more to do with the personal attributes of the players than the pace of play in the MHL. Obviously, the guys playing in the CHL were no faster. The MHL is a relatively new league, so it may be that there is still some lag in the development of rivalries that motivate emotional play. And let's face it, hockey is much more important in Finland than in Russia.

I think Russia just had some bad luck in the last 2 WJC Gold Medal games. They had the misfortune of advancing to the Gold Medal game against the host countries, both of whom could feed off of emotionally charged, frenzied support from the fans. I think that was a huge advantage for both Canada and Finland, and a boulder to load on the shoulder of the Russians. If Russia would have drawn Finland instead of Canada in the GMG game in Toronto, the crowd would have of course supported Finland over the hated Russians, but it wouldn't have been with the same intensity and furor. The jet-fueled speed that you saw by the home teams in Toronto and Helsinki was largely provided by the frenzied crowds in my view.

Yakushev72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-16-2016, 03:46 PM
  #120
wings5
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,106
vCash: 500
Also even though we can agree that the CHL is bad I think this generation of kids is alot more suited to handle the adjustments than the previous one. They play a more North American style.


wings5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-16-2016, 04:45 PM
  #121
Yakushev72
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,753
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wings5 View Post
Also even though we can agree that the CHL is bad I think this generation of kids is alot more suited to handle the adjustments than the previous one. They play a more North American style.

Thanks for the clip. You're right, the younger guys are a lot more feisty than previous generations were allowed to be. They will stand up for their goaltender, which you might not have seen with previous generations.

Yakushev72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2016, 02:25 PM
  #122
malkinfan
Registered User
 
malkinfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Canada
Country: Slovenia
Posts: 4,158
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to malkinfan
All other arguments aside, look at Sokolov and Abramov were both top 15 picks coming into this year, now they will be lucky to be taken in the 2nd round. Rubstov wasn't in the first round coming into this year, now he's ranked as high as 15. Reason to me is Rubstov is playing with his Russian teammates and made a big impression at the U19 WJAC where as the other guys have to learn to play with guys who dump and chase (read Kuznetsovs player tribune article). Scouts are watching, critiquing on a nightly basis in the CHL, pick apart every detail of your game where as back in Russia scouts mainly watch the guys at the international tournaments (MHL is very lightly scouted by NHL scouts, only the European scouts will check in on a guy from time to time if they are interested) where they are in their element playing with Russian teammates.

Even Panarin recently says in an article that IHO best way is to prove yourself in the KHL before coming over and when asked what he thinks about all the young guys coming over to get drafted, he says - we'll see what happens in a few years, if they make the NHL or not.

IMO the U18 team is a great idea. I have a new proposition, what if they had 2 of such teams? If there was more space for the players, maybe they would not leave to the CHL, clearly their would be enough talent to fill 2 competitive U18 teams to play in the MHL.

BTW check out this Kovalenko kid - 5 points in his 1st 4 games, so can the U18 team just call him up from Loko if they want?

malkinfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2016, 02:49 PM
  #123
Fantomas
Registered User
 
Fantomas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 7,168
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by malkinfan View Post
All other arguments aside, look at Sokolov and Abramov were both top 15 picks coming into this year, now they will be lucky to be taken in the 2nd round.
Finding me a ranking that had Abramov top 15 last year.

He has been great this year and is in play for the first round.

Fantomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2016, 04:04 PM
  #124
MaxV
Registered User
 
MaxV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York, NY
Country: Russian Federation
Posts: 3,050
vCash: 500
I still say the CHL is far more benefitial for secondary prospects rather then the top prospects.

Why go to another Junior league if you are certain to get a shot at the 2nd best senior league in the world?

MaxV is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2016, 04:19 PM
  #125
malkinfan
Registered User
 
malkinfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Canada
Country: Slovenia
Posts: 4,158
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to malkinfan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantomas View Post
Finding me a ranking that had Abramov top 15 last year.

He has been great this year and is in play for the first round.
No need to nitpick BTW, you are over biased against my statement and for yours. Show me one ranking where Abramov is in the 1st round?

Just because he is putting up points doesn't mean the scouts are sold, the Q is weak this year and they have already knocked his skating. Redline had him at 16 at preseason (sorry I rounded by 1) (http://thechronicleherald.ca/moosehe...at-nhl-draft)- you yourself said "top 5 by February", now not even an honorable mention for 1st round -ISS, CSS - B rated player, Button - not in top 40. Sokolov was projected by ISS last year as a top 10, both guys played themselves out of the first in the rankings. Rubtov has one excellent tournament and suddenly he is top 15 - ISS. Besides trying to discredit my claim, what is the point you are trying to make?


Last edited by malkinfan: 01-17-2016 at 04:50 PM.
malkinfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:27 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2017 All Rights Reserved.