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The New Little Caesers Arena Megathread

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Old
07-13-2015, 11:02 PM
  #76
Bench
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Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
And like I said explain Indianapolis, Pittsburgh and Cleveland where entertainment districts have been vital in fixing broken and misused areas of cities.
Be that as it may, do they still need any funding from public sources? I'd like to think as a voting base we're going to move past giving incentives for sports leagues that would thrive without that support.

You mentioned that's a utopian principal, which might be true, particularly when you consider the juggernaut that is the NFL is still dodging taxes by being called a non-profit.

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07-13-2015, 11:15 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Bench View Post
Be that as it may, do they still need any funding from public sources? I'd like to think as a voting base we're going to move past giving incentives for sports leagues that would thrive without that support.

You mentioned that's a utopian principal, which might be true, particularly when you consider the juggernaut that is the NFL is still dodging taxes by being called a non-profit.
Without getting too political here...

But if you picked the perfect government in terms of the civics to study and implementation where it function to the ideal optimum. It would be communism in my opinion.

Problem is people are going to run these things and human error is going to impact this.

Why things get paid for, who gets what, It is one of life's mysteries. Ultimately I do think this project represents progress for the city of Detroit and a much needed shot in the arm. It isn't right for every city, but I believe it is in this particular case.

You evaluate this on individual cases, Detroit's more than passes the smell test for me.

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07-14-2015, 07:13 AM
  #78
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I have very mixed emotions about the project: I have no problem with paying the high gate fee and chugging a $9 brewski in what looks to be the best new arena in all sportsdom. The 'magnanomous' Ilitch will make the money he poneyed up and then some on merchandising, property subsidiaries, blahblah. I can't really stomach the argument he is doing more than most owners when he is going to be making serious profit on this venture. He is sacrificing nothing.

On a personal level, I don't want want to see long standing businesses in the Cass Corridor get pushed out because the area is suddenly turned into a high dollar yuppie playground and they can't afford their lease anymore.

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07-14-2015, 11:21 AM
  #79
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Pro sports team do not deserve a dime from the cities they are located in.

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07-14-2015, 11:51 AM
  #80
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http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...developme.html

Can't believe they even acknowledged him.

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07-14-2015, 01:01 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by WingsInRed View Post
http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...developme.html

Can't believe they even acknowledged him.
Ilitch and his family are going to want more money in the future to either upgrade the arena or build a new one.

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07-14-2015, 01:15 PM
  #82
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I just can't see public funding going away anytime soon. Until it is federally blocked cities will play off of each other to get a stadium built. On top of that each parties will have their reason for not outlawing it. With all of that said I don't trust ether party into drafting a bill that won't have unanticipated consequences.

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07-14-2015, 04:17 PM
  #83
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John Oliver weighs in and criticizes Illitch

http://www.clickondetroit.com/sports...bread/34133376

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07-14-2015, 05:17 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Ilitch and his family are going to want more money in the future to either upgrade the arena or build a new one.
Why do you think this?

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07-14-2015, 06:03 PM
  #85
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Why do you think this?
Because they like not having to spend their own money.

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07-15-2015, 10:39 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Cyborg Yzerman View Post
John Oliver weighs in and criticizes Illitch

http://www.clickondetroit.com/sports...bread/34133376
John Oliver is just a puppet.

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Old
07-15-2015, 12:25 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Because they like not having to spend their own money.
You do realize not even half of the project is publicly funded right..? Almost 3/5 of the funding is coming out of his own pockets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gretskidoo View Post
John Oliver is just a puppet.
This. And I can't believe that anybody who actually watched his segment agreed with anything he said. All he did was prove he knows absolutely nothing about the city of Detroit or Mike Ilitch (or economics TBH).

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07-15-2015, 12:28 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by WingsInRed View Post
You do realize not even half of the project is publicly funded right..? Almost 3/5 of the funding is coming out of his own pockets.
You do realize Mike Ilitch is worth SIX BILLION DOLLARS and was gifted 250+ million from a city that is bankrupt and can't afford to keep their street lights on?

It's still terrible.

Meanwhile the Detroit Fire Department is using pop cans to alert them that there is an emergency.


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Old
07-15-2015, 12:41 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingsInRed View Post
http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...developme.html

Can't believe they even acknowledged him.
What's hilarious is that the response made by Olympia is exactly the propaganda Oliver pointed out is passed around to justify the stadiums. What an amazing response!

Quote:
Originally Posted by gretskidoo View Post
John Oliver is just a puppet.
Well, he's a comedian that (along with a staff of writers and researchers) tackle social and political issues. It's entertainment first, but like thoughtful comedy, can raise important questions and make pithy arguments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WingsInRed View Post
You do realize not even half of the project is publicly funded right..? Almost 3/5 of the funding is coming out of his own pockets.


This. And I can't believe that anybody who actually watched his segment agreed with anything he said. All he did was prove he knows absolutely nothing about the city of Detroit or Mike Ilitch.
Anything he said? Anything? Even the part of Cinninati having to buy a holographic replay machine? Or how about all that Marlins stuff? Anything????

First off, why the hell shouldn't the funding be 5/5 out of his own pockets? Flimsy justifications for Ilitch getting $280 million dollar tax break include:
1) Everybody does it.
2) If it wasn't the arena, it would be some other stupid project.

Second, the argument was that Detroit is going through a very difficult financial scenario while still handing out $280 million dollars to help build a sports arena. And arenas, typically, are awful investments in a city. Posters like TZE pointed out areas where some thinks it worked, and argues it will do the same for Detroit, but there's a wealth of evidence to suggest that this type of investment is not prudent to be built on the backs of taxpayers.

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Old
07-15-2015, 12:43 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
You do realize Mike Ilitch is worth SIX BILLION DOLLARS and was gifted 250+ million from a city that is bankrupt and can't afford to keep their street lights on?

It's still terrible.

Meanwhile the Detroit Fire Department is using pop cans to alert them that there is an emergency.

1) Mike Ilitch is worth 4 Billion, 5 TOPS
2) 250+million from a city....... that has made BILLIONS by taxing the revenue that HE HAS CREATED. To say he was gifted 250+ mil is straight up disrespectful after all that he has done for this city.

My only problem with the money coming from the city of Detroit is that the citizens of Detroit are not the people who go to Red Wings games.

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Old
07-15-2015, 12:45 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
You do realize Mike Ilitch is worth SIX BILLION DOLLARS and was gifted 250+ million from a city that is bankrupt and can't afford to keep their street lights on?

It's still terrible.

Meanwhile the Detroit Fire Department is using pop cans to alert them that there is an emergency.
I'm with you.

But here's the response you'll get. "But the money couldn't even be used for that!" So there's basically a pot of money set aside to help out dudes like Ilitch make profitable businesses more profitable. I'm sure all that money will trickle down eventually, but I'm still waiting for my penny hailstorm from Reagan.

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07-15-2015, 12:52 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bench View Post
What's hilarious is that the response made by Olympia is exactly the propaganda Oliver pointed out is passed around to justify the stadiums. What an amazing response!

Anything he said? Anything? Even the part of Cinninati having to buy a holographic replay machine? Or how about all that Marlins stuff? Anything????

First off, why the hell shouldn't the funding be 5/5 out of his own pockets? Flimsy justifications for Ilitch getting $280 million dollar tax break include:
1) Everybody does it.
2) If it wasn't the arena, it would be some other stupid project.

Second, the argument was that Detroit is going through a very difficult financial scenario while still handing out $280 million dollars to help build a sports arena. And arenas, typically, are awful investments in a city. Posters like TZE pointed out areas where some thinks it worked, and argues it will do the same for Detroit, but there's a wealth of evidence to suggest that this type of investment is not prudent to be built on the backs of taxpayers.
This is where I call you a strawman for nitpicking the **** out of an obvious generalization.

Justifications for Ilitch getting 280million include:
1) He's brought BILLIONS in tax revenue to the city
2) The new arena will allow him to bring in millions more of taxable revenue per year.
3) HE PROBABLY WONT EVEN BE ALIVE WHEN THE ARENA IS BUILT. The way you make it sound he is building this arena for himself cause his pondhockey arena isn't good enough anymore.
4) Right around the corner in Columbus, the arena district was a huge success.
But you can just close your eyes and keep saying "Ilitch is a supervillain" if you want

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07-15-2015, 12:55 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bench View Post
I'm with you.

But here's the response you'll get. "But the money couldn't even be used for that!" So there's basically a pot of money set aside to help out dudes like Ilitch make profitable businesses more profitable. I'm sure all that money will trickle down eventually, but I'm still waiting for my penny hailstorm from Reagan.
A profitable business becoming more profitable does what...? Oh right, gets taxed more, giving more money to the city.

BTW, blaming Ilitch for the Fire Department being a piece of **** that NOBODY wants to work at because they pay like 10 dollars an hour is a really good argument that makes a lot of sense.

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07-15-2015, 01:36 PM
  #94
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The Columbus arena was not funded by public money, either. If that's the standard for success it makes the case for not giving public dough to the project. People like Illitch already get tax breaks galore and other sweet perks for doing business here, they don't need anymore sweetened deals to become even wealthier.

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07-15-2015, 07:26 PM
  #95
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Wait, so the city almost owes Ilitch for taxing him and his business? Am I reading this correctly?

Taxes are not a good reason for the city/state to foot any percentage of the new arena.

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07-15-2015, 07:55 PM
  #96
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Wait, so the city almost owes Ilitch for taxing him and his business? Am I reading this correctly?

Taxes are not a good reason for the city/state to foot any percentage of the new arena.
Agreed.

All of that said, I'm really excited about the new arena. And there in lies the issue! On one hand I'm all "This may not be a great way to spend money" but on the other hand I'm all "OMG SHINY." I'd be lying if I said it wasn't an appeal to make the trip for more games. It was designed by the same architectural firm that did the American Airlines Center, which is the home of the Stars and Mavericks in Dallas. The connections just keep happening, I can't help it, okay guys?

That area around the arena and the guts of the arena itself were pretty great. However, keep in mind, the big plan for that area included the arena spurring more local businesses and young professionals... sound familiar? It didn't work. Despite that being in a centrally located downtown area, it's dead. Apartments made for young professionals remain difficult to fill and bars and restaurants struggle to stay afloat. Victory Park, it was called. How could such a thing fail?!

http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/d...-a-win-6372907

Quote:
But now, nearly three years after its first shops opened, Victory Park still hasn't found itself. Even before the economy went south, the district often turned into a ghost town when the arena was dark. Ritzy retailers have fled, while other businesses are struggling to hang on. Hillwood, the Perot real estate firm that runs the development, still has big ambitions for its development but recently postponed plans to build a second luxury hotel and now hopes to shed Victory's exclusive image by leasing to more affordable shops and restaurants. The KISS crowd, or any crowd, is now welcome.

"I don't think they spent this kind of money thinking it was going to be this quiet," says Mike Malin, an owner of the parent company that owns the Board Room sports bar in Victory Park. "I think Hillwood put together an impressive mix of nightlife and restaurants, and they expected the community to embrace it more."
The article goes on to blame foot traffic design and poor economy. Yeah, sure. As you search the internet for updates, you'll see articles explaining the failure of the billion dollar effort to revitalize the area.

And then you'll see starting a few years ago they planned a very expensive $100 million dollar "do over". And not everybody was thrilled with that idea.

Quote:
Council member Lee Kleinman said the area is still lacking in providing basic needs, such as a grocery store, for area residents. He said the problems with Victory should serve as a lesson for the city.

“These arena-oriented developments just don’t work,” Kleinman said.
http://cityhallblog.dallasnews.com/2...-million.html/

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Old
07-15-2015, 08:26 PM
  #97
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Keeping the Cass corridor as is was a really big winner movement for the city.

This fund isn't for education, police and fire. It cannot freed up for that without serious state legislation, the likes of which is/was never coming.

Detroit isn't other cities and the money is coming from the State.

If we are going to argue about it, we should examine it on its actual merits.

I mean I get using cases like the Marlins and the use of Cincinnati's waterfront property in bad stadium deals. But as I said there are examples where this is championed in other cities. If it is done right it can make a significant impact.

Also the oft used examples of Columbus and San Francisco (Giants) had massive tax breaks, huge land grant accommodations to make those happen. They aren't purely private either as often discussed. Building something of this magnitude isn't going to come from one funnel.

By the way worth noting that the Palace really is the big arena concert venue for the area. We expect that to divert downtown as well, that is massive and makes a huge difference as well when evaluating this versus other cities. This will bring a massive amount of other dates and entertainment acts downtown, that would otherwise not make their way there.


Last edited by The Zetterberg Era: 07-15-2015 at 08:31 PM.
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07-27-2015, 07:23 PM
  #98
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Aerial footage: Red Wings arena construction
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/a...ction/34378946

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08-02-2015, 03:24 AM
  #99
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They couldn't've torn down that ugly hotel?

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08-02-2015, 11:52 AM
  #100
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They couldn't've torn down that ugly hotel?
If you clicked on the link, it says:

Quote:
The Hotel Eddystone now stands alone. The plan is to redevelop the building.

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