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Somebody convince Pittsburgh to let Fleury go back to the Q

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Old
10-11-2003, 07:14 AM
  #51
Darth Vitale
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I have two lines of thought about Marc-Andre.

The first is, anyone who let's in the first shot he faces in the NHL, on a first-minute breakaway... then comes back to stone a team 47 times in the next 48 SOG... has his head squarely IN the game. All pre-season long we've heard the same basic compliment over and over. What's impressing the coaches the most is his mind / attitude.

After last night's shelling, I don't think there's any question Fleury is mentally ready to handle the challenges of this league. And apart from improving his communication and rebounds a bit, his technique is already excellent. His speed is better than most....

BUT, it clearly is not going to be a good idea to play this kid against the better teams on a regular basis. He will get shellacked, because as someone noted this was a *very* beat up Kings team that got close to 50 SOG to the Pens ELEVEN. Loosely translated: even if the Pens somehow manage to gel a bit over the next 30 days, there will never be enough support for Fleury to warrant playing him against the better teams. His ego will take a beating over time.

Caron is playing against Phillthy tonight so that's the right concept. A) Try to play Fleury at home as much as possible, and B) DON'T play him against the elite teams just yet. Let him stay up and develop, but pick and choose his battles for him for the first season. He should play about 25-35 games in my estimation, but practice as the team's #1 along with Caron.

The teams he should NOT face this year unless a Caron injury forces it:
Colorado, Vancouver, Detroit, Dallas, St. Louis, Ottawa, Philly, Toronto and Washington for sure. Those teams all possess the ability to put tremendous numbers of SOG, and therefore pose the biggest risk to a healthy season of development for Fleury.

But there's zero question that going back to QMJHL is a waste of time for him. At a minimum find a way to get him to WBS instead (not sure how the contractual arrangements would be handled, but he could deal with an AHL workload pretty easily IMO).


BUT MAN... what a game! No question in my mind they picked the right kid. Also no question in my mind we're going to finish last in the NHL if we keep putting up 11 SOG/game. Ovechkin, anyone? If the new CBA works to their favor, the Pens could have a very bright future.

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10-11-2003, 07:21 AM
  #52
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My Take../.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiki
Thiws is the exact way I feel. Fleury is going to get a chance to show what he can do.If his play levels off or falter he can be sent down at any time. No reason (besides $$ which are always a factor in pittsburgh) to worry about the ten game limit.

Another difference with MAF and Blackburn is the atmosphere in which they are playing. NYC is not exactly the type of place to bring a rookie along slowly. With the payroll and star status of the Rangers Dan had much larger expectations on him. Plus he found little playing time behind vetren goalies in Richter and later Dunham.

In Fleury's case he has only Carron to compete with playing time wise. I would not be at all supprised to see the Pens split the games between the two unless one gets very hot.

Tiki
Interestng points made on this subject so far. As for whether Fleury should remain with the Pens this whole year, I do think he would be better served by returning to Junior because of the following factors:

1) His Junior Team in Cape Breton is a strong team this year, and playing on a winning team should help his development. Learn to play with high expectations and pressure of winning

2) Last 2/3 first round selected goalies who played right away, Blackburn and Dipietro didn't fare too well. After 2 years in the NHL, Blackburn is playing in the AHL while Markennan backs up Dunham. Dipietro played right away, but spent the majority of his time that first year in the IHL, then spent 2 years in the AHL and is now with the Isles full time. Contrast to Kari Lehtonen, who returned to Finland last year and will play in the AHL this year. As well, Luongo played 2 more years of Junior after being drafted and spent the majority of his first year pro in the Minors. Right now, Luongo is still developing, so it does go to show that Goaies take time to come along. Guys like Theo, Turco, Giguere, Denis, Biron all spent time in the AHL, College, and/or played out their Junior eligibility before making it to the big show.

3) No Veteran goalie pressence. Caron has fewer than 20 NHL games under his belt. Would have been better for the Pens to have a vet to help Fleury along, not one who is also trying to develop his game in the NHL at the same time.

4) Lock-out. If there is one, would Fleury be permitted to play in the Minors next season if he plays in the NHL this year. I recall back in 1995, Nathan Lafayette of the Nucks was permitted to play on the Nuck's farm team after their Cup run to continue to develop his skills. But, he needed permission from the NHLPA to do so.

We'll have to see how the Pens perform in M-A's first 10 games before we decide whether he should stay or return. More games like the way the Pens played against LA and I'll fear for Fleury's long term development.

Playing 18 year olds is alway tough. In Carolina, Staal has the benefit of the veteran presence of Ron Francis and Rod Brind'Amour to help him along. However, Paul Maurice is likely under the gun to make the playoffs after finishing last, last season and making the finals the year before. So, if Staal makes some mistakes, would Maurice limit his ice time to try to win and keep his job? As for Nathan Horton, issue is not so much about pressure to win as it is about developing his PF game. He's a big guy, but there are a lot of big strong guys in the NHL. PF's generally take more time to develop their game, so patience is going to be key in FLA.

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10-11-2003, 07:27 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reign Nateo
No $h!t I was exaggerating a little.

Last night was not a fair example of what the Kings can do either, give them a healthy squad or have the Pens face Colorado or Ottawa and Fleury will be torn apart.

#4 I agree with to some extent, no pressure is a good thing, but far more harm than good will be done from facing 50 shots a night and losing 85% of your games.
Did you even watch the game?? If I were a betting man, I'd take the injury-riddled Kings lineup on the power play HALF THE GAME over a healthy Colorado team any day of the week. What makes Fleury's performance so phenomenal is that we were down one man for two 5:00 minute majors and a bunch of scattered minor penalties, and he still managed to keep us in the game. The chances they had were quality.

S L

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10-11-2003, 07:35 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Man
49 shots against the injury-riddled Kings?? How many shots would the Avalanche put on this team??
Not as many. The Kings were on the Powerplay for 18 minutes of the games, and there were two 5 minute majors.

S L

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Old
10-11-2003, 07:38 AM
  #55
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Steve, while you make a good point about the 5 min pp, I have no doubt the Avs or Ottawa or any number of other good teams could put 55+ SOG against the Pens D. Not saying it would happen every game, but it will happen a lot more than it should, let's put it that way. The Pens are basically fielding an AHL calibre defense....

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10-11-2003, 08:26 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyClause
The problem with letting Fleury stay up is he has a few kinks in his game (as all young goalies do). It's easy and more effective for him to work out those flaws in the minors or in juniors. You can work on things in those leagues and not get toasted because your talent will keep in you in it. But in the NHL, if you want to win games, it's a lot harder to work on your game as an 18 year old. Of course, that is if Pittsburgh even cares about winning RIGHT now. I'm not so sure they do.
Fleury is the real deal
Fleury played great and he didn't show any signs of weakness
He's very mature for his age, and they way he has played in pre-season just goes to show that he is ready at the NHL level.

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10-11-2003, 08:47 AM
  #57
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I think SmokeyClause is right.

If you send him to the Q he can work out whatever kinks he has left. He can step into the league and make a smoother transition. It's not really a waste. This whole season will be a write off for the Penguins anyway. I remember when Eric Fichaud came up, he was great against NHL calibre talent, but his game slowly erroded when he lost his confidence and ran into injury troubles. I'm not saying that will happen to Marc Andre Fleury, but you don't want him to have to deal with the burden of defeat.

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10-11-2003, 09:11 AM
  #58
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Once again, anyone that expects the Pens to play this way all season is fooling himself.

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10-11-2003, 10:10 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
Once again, anyone that expects the Pens to play this way all season is fooling himself.
Why? Pittsburgh has a terrible roster.

You can probably expect some decent numbers out of Lemieux, but outside of him, Morozov, and Straka, how many of those guys are good above average NHLers up front?

The blueline looks worse than most expansion teams. You can probably build a better blueline out of the scraps left over in the Toronto system.

To make things worse, they don't have an experienced coach to get the most out of this atrocity of a team.

I'm not sure this team will win 20 games.

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10-11-2003, 10:25 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nash61
...............47 saves! Holy ****! You know he is ready physically. However, how will trying to hold your team in the game night after night after night after night on a very weak team like the Pens affect Fleury? I think they should give him a few games then send him back down, and ofcourse let him play for Canada in the WJC.
I disagree with you , ready physically is not 1 game, there almost 80 other NON-NHL that could have played well in 1 game, probably not a Fleury performance but they can do well for 1 game.

Ready physically mean you can play 40 games + & after that if you are a superstar goalie ready ,you can play 60 games.

Many goalies can have 1 good game but not many can put solid stats after 50-60 games.

Im for Fleury 20 to 30 games this season but if it goes way more than that, I think he should be in junior.

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10-11-2003, 10:25 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiki
Thiws is the exact way I feel. Fleury is going to get a chance to show what he can do.If his play levels off or falter he can be sent down at any time. No reason (besides $$ which are always a factor in pittsburgh) to worry about the ten game limit.

Tiki
There are options for Fleury other than juniors. He could be made available to the Canadian National Team. He can also be sent to the AHL on a conditioning stint. As long as the player consents, a conditioning assigment can be for an indefinite period. The Pens might not like that too much as they would have to pay Fleury an NHL salary and it would still count as a roster spot on the big club.

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10-11-2003, 10:54 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
Why? Pittsburgh has a terrible roster.

You can probably expect some decent numbers out of Lemieux, but outside of him, Morozov, and Straka, how many of those guys are good above average NHLers up front?

The blueline looks worse than most expansion teams. You can probably build a better blueline out of the scraps left over in the Toronto system.

To make things worse, they don't have an experienced coach to get the most out of this atrocity of a team.

I'm not sure this team will win 20 games.
No, no, no.

Pens have talent. But they are inexperienced. Abid, Kraft, Beech, Surovy, Sivek are all on the outside looking in. That should tell you that the Pens DO have talent. Defensively, Rozsival is injured, but Orpik, Tarnstrom and Melichar are solid. After that, Focht still has himself to prove, Baumgarnter is a bum, and Berehowsky is OK. Lupaschuk and Scuderi are ready to jump in if asked.
If you know hockey players, you'd know this corps is not as bad as it looks. Certianly not allstars, but solid players (except Baumgarnter).
As for behind the bench, they have Molleken, who's a very successful coach.
I don't have a problem with the coaching yet.

If you expect the Pens to suck as much all season, then I'm sorry, argument closed, because you're more of a brick wall than Fleury himself...

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10-11-2003, 11:14 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
Defensively, Rozsival is injured, but Orpik, Tarnstrom and Melichar are solid. After that, Focht still has himself to prove, Baumgarnter is a bum, and Berehowsky is OK. Lupaschuk and Scuderi are ready to jump in if asked.
If you know hockey players, you'd know this corps is not as bad as it looks. Certianly not allstars, but solid players (except Baumgarnter).
If you think that the Pittsburgh defence is solid then you're the one who's fooling himself. When Tarnstrom, Orpik, and Melichar are your top-3 you're in trouble. Having Berehowsky, Focht, and Baumgartner as your bottom 3 is even worse. Face it, Pittsburgh has the worst defence corp in the NHL.


Quote:
As for behind the bench, they have Molleken, who's a very successful coach.
I don't have a problem with the coaching yet.

If you expect the Pens to suck as much all season, then I'm sorry, argument closed, because you're more of a brick wall than Fleury himself...

I have no problem with Molleken, but then he's not the head coach. Having one bright spot on an otherwise mediocre coaching staff is not really a good thing. Pittsburgh may not be quite *that* bad all season, but they will finish last in the East and very possibly last in the NHL. Not a terrible thing since they'll have the best chance to draft Ovechkin.

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10-11-2003, 11:17 AM
  #64
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our D is suck to the naked eye but it's solid compared to last year.

Anything is better than Ian Moran, Hans Jonsson, Jamie Pushor, and Janne Laukkanen.

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10-11-2003, 11:25 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffaloed
There are options for Fleury other than juniors. He could be made available to the Canadian National Team. He can also be sent to the AHL on a conditioning stint. As long as the player consents, a conditioning assigment can be for an indefinite period. The Pens might not like that too much as they would have to pay Fleury an NHL salary and it would still count as a roster spot on the big club.
That's interesting. For the National Team option, would that be just to keep his conditioning stable or would he be challenged there? How realistic is that?

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10-11-2003, 01:41 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loveshack2
If you think that the Pittsburgh defence is solid then you're the one who's fooling himself. When Tarnstrom, Orpik, and Melichar are your top-3 you're in trouble. Having Berehowsky, Focht, and Baumgartner as your bottom 3 is even worse. Face it, Pittsburgh has the worst defence corp in the NHL.





I have no problem with Molleken, but then he's not the head coach. Having one bright spot on an otherwise mediocre coaching staff is not really a good thing. Pittsburgh may not be quite *that* bad all season, but they will finish last in the East and very possibly last in the NHL. Not a terrible thing since they'll have the best chance to draft Ovechkin.
I guess you don't know these players then...

And gimme your crystal ball when you're finished seeing the Pens finish last in the East...

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10-11-2003, 01:52 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
I guess you don't know these players then...

And gimme your crystal ball when you're finished seeing the Pens finish last in the East...

Oh but I do know these players. That's why I can say these things. As for the crystal ball, you can feel free to bookmark this post and check back as the season progresses.

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10-11-2003, 02:40 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacobv2
That's interesting. For the National Team option, would that be just to keep his conditioning stable or would he be challenged there? How realistic is that?
The best players in the world not in North America play for the various national teams. They play 6-7 tournaments a year culminating with the World Championships. He'd definitely be challenged. The European teams release their top players to play in the tournaments. It's a higher level of play than the AHL. The Rochester Amerks were invited to the Spengler Cup several years ago and didn't fare very well. The national team is a part-time affair now, so he might have to return to a club to stay in condition. He could get in 15-20 games depending on when he went and how well he did. If he has to take a step back, I think the national team is better for his development than the Q as he'd be exposed to more mature competition and high level coaching.

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10-12-2003, 12:06 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loveshack2
Oh but I do know these players. That's why I can say these things. As for the crystal ball, you can feel free to bookmark this post and check back as the season progresses.
No need to bookmark it any further...
3-0 agains the Kings (luckily to boot).
Had they repeated the same thing, do you think they would have tied the Flyers IN Philly?
The first game was no indication of the Pens' talents and potential (not that they have the potential to win the East, but certainly better than what they showed against the Kings).
You got your proof right there against the Flyers. The Pens lose 9 times out of 10 in Philly. They tied today.

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10-12-2003, 05:41 AM
  #70
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What makes everyone think that Fleury playing behind a better team in Cape Brenton which will give him less shots to hone his skills and facing less talented shooters, will improve his development at all?

You know the one thing that seems consistent in most ppl's posts that want him to go back to juniors is, "so he can play in net for Team Canada for the WJC". FIND A NEW GOALIE FOR YOUR JUNIOR TEAM.

With the talent pool you have you should win that tournament every year, I'm sure you can find another goalie suitable to play.

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