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Marc-Andre Fleury makes 46 saves on 48 shots in first NHL game

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Old
10-11-2003, 09:09 AM
  #51
RyanM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
Yes there is. ...His age.

At 18, no kid is ready to be a starting goaltender in the NHL. And it is detrimental to his development to keep him as a backup goaltender or even to use him in tandem in the NHL when he could play 60+ games in junior hockey.

I don't care how good Fleury is. He should be playing junior hockey.
IMO EVERY player is different. You can not compare Fleury to Blackburn, because they're 2 different players with 2 different mentalities. Obviously Fleury proved last night that he was ready for his 1st NHL test. If he keeps up THAT level of play, not only will he stay in Pittsburgh all year he'll be mentioned among the leagues elite goalies by the end of the year, but the chnces of his stopping 46 of 48 every night are slim. If he is good enough NOW to play in the NHL then he should be in the NHL, I dont care about past failures who played at 18, Fleury is not those players, he's his own player and so far he's aced every test throw at him.

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10-11-2003, 09:12 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanM
IMO EVERY player is different. You can not compare Fleury to Blackburn, because they're 2 different players with 2 different mentalities. Obviously Fleury proved last night that he was ready for his 1st NHL test. If he keeps up THAT level of play, not only will he stay in Pittsburgh all year he'll be mentioned among the leagues elite goalies by the end of the year, but the chnces of his stopping 46 of 48 every night are slim. If he is good enough NOW to play in the NHL then he should be in the NHL, I dont care about past failures who played at 18, Fleury is not those players, he's his own player and so far he's aced every test throw at him.
agreed 100%

As long as he plays like he belongs you can't make a good reason to send him down. If I'm playing this well in the NHL at this age and I get sent back to juniors because of age I'm infuriated.

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10-11-2003, 09:44 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Cosmo_Kramer
Well I am a Penguins fan and I think that if he shows any signs of breaking before the 10 game limit, then Craig Patrick should send him down.

In my opinion, when you look at whether to keep Fleury up you don't only have to look at the mentality aspect of it, but you also have to look at the financial aspect.

If Fleury stays up the whole season and plays 40 + games, he will most likely achieve most if not all of the bonuses in his contract. This means he could make 4 million during this year. I don't think the Penguins would be able to spend 12-13 million on just three players alone. So the likely scenerio would be to trade Straka.

Fleury may or may not be ready for the NHL this year. But I doubt we will be able to tell this just by one performance, now matter how outstanding of a performance it was. I don't think any goaltender in the NHL would be able to stop 40 shots per night and not go insane.

Remember that just last year Fleury was living with his family during the season. If Fleury is playing on Pittsburgh he will have to stay in Pittsburgh during the season and go on road trips. That might not be the easiest thing for an 18 year old to do and still play in the high paced game of the NHL. Something will have to give...

But I'm still wishing, or rather hoping, that Fleury will prove me wrong and have a calder year and post numbers that will make Brodeur look like peewee hockey goaltender.
Of course Fleury won't be living with his familly this year. But every kid leave the house one day, it's just a normal step in life.

Plus, he lives with Mario Lemieux and his family so he'll have a familly to leave with. He won't be alone! Lemieux will be like a second father for him and I think that will helps him to mature. Pittsburgh will give him all that they can to make him happy in Pittsburgh.

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10-11-2003, 10:09 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanM
IMO EVERY player is different. You can not compare Fleury to Blackburn, because they're 2 different players with 2 different mentalities. Obviously Fleury proved last night that he was ready for his 1st NHL test. If he keeps up THAT level of play, not only will he stay in Pittsburgh all year he'll be mentioned among the leagues elite goalies by the end of the year, but the chnces of his stopping 46 of 48 every night are slim. If he is good enough NOW to play in the NHL then he should be in the NHL, I dont care about past failures who played at 18, Fleury is not those players, he's his own player and so far he's aced every test throw at him.

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10-11-2003, 10:45 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by awesome`
I think he's the closest thing to being the next Roy, but we will only see it in the big games and the playoffs.


He has played one game and is the next Roy? How about three time Stanley Cup winner Martin Brodeur or Roberto Luongo or JS Giguere?

I don't think it's a good idea for the Pens to let this guy face almost 50 shots a game. I love the way Fleury plays, but if he starts slipping or starts getting blown out, for the love of god send him down.


Look at these results:

02/23/96: L (64m45s, 40/43) 2-3 OT defeat vs. Tampa Bay (Puppa)
03/23/96: L (63m38s, 40/43) 2-3 OT defeat vs. New Jersey (Brodeur)
01/25/97: W (60m, 47/49) 3-2 victory vs. Chicago (Hackett)

A selection of a few of Fichaud's results as a 19-20 year old. Fichaud was a goalie with a great mental toughness. He took his team to the Memorial Cup. Playing sporadically on the Isles bench and injuries erroded his confidence. He's not even in the NHL anymore.

11/23/01: L (59m55s, 45/51) 2-6 defeat at Washington (Kolzig).
12/01/01: W (60m, 45/46) 3-1 victory at Montreal (Theodore).
12/28/01: W (60m, 40/43) 5-3 victory at San Jose (Nabokov, Kiprusoff).
04/13/02: L (58m52s, 43/45) 1-2 defeat at Philadelphia (Cechmanek).

These numbers were posted by Dan Blackburn during his rookie season. Look at the number of shots he faced. He was able to put up those Fleury type numbers. Is he ready for the NHL today?

When Dan Blackburn came up, people said he had a very strong mental game, and thrived under a heavy workload a la Curtis Joseph. There isn't any indication his mental makeup is weaker than Fleury's.

Just because a guy can put up impressive numbers and play a great game in his debut doesn't mean he's ready for the NHL long term. It's a better idea for a guy to work out his problems in the minors and graduate full time in one linear development track then to have them sent down after sitting on the bench and not playing enough in his rookie year.

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Old
10-11-2003, 11:47 AM
  #56
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How long are you going to take to realize one individual is not like another?
That he could be closer to Barrasso than Fichaud?
That he simply could set new standards?

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10-11-2003, 11:59 AM
  #57
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Noone should use any precedents with Fleury.

He is his own individual, different from any goalie who ever played.
There is no way to know what will help him and what will hurt him. He signed the contract, so apparently he thinks that the NHL is the best place for him. Five years from now, we can debate on whether Fleury would have been better served going back to juniors or not. I say, if we send him back after he cleary has shown he can play, what message does that send? That is not the sentiment that was expressed before camp. The Pens said that the best players would play, and i don't think they failed to prove they were telling the truth with this roster.

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10-11-2003, 12:09 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
How long are you going to take to realize one individual is not like another?
That he could be closer to Barrasso than Fichaud?
That he simply could set new standards?
So you say it's not because no one ever succeeded when put in Fleury's position that he can't ? Maybe .. But keep in mind no 18 years old kid has ever been asked to do this behind such a terrible team(no pun intended). Anyway what are the chances that he keeps this up for let's say 40 games ? Also keep in mind there are much better teams than LA out there right now.

Would his development really be hindered by being sent down in the Q ? I don't think so. I'm the kind of person who would rather go with a 99% chance to win 100 000$ than a 1% to win 1 000 000$.

I was advocating Fleury being sent down before the regular season. Now that he is in the NHL and that the pens made that decision it is a little bit different. The kid's confidence or trust could also be hurt if he was sent down for no reasons. I hope he succeeds but I'll always believe the way to go was to send him down before the start of the regular season and let him try to win at every level before asking him to win at the NHL level. It's not only about looking good. It's about developing a winning goalie. He couldn't even win his first game by saving 96% of the shots thrown at him.

Montreal goaltending coach Roland Melanson (one of the league's best by all accounts) has been teaching Fleury in the summer since he's 15. Melanson said that Fleury is one of the best (if not the best) 18 years old goalie he has ever seen. He says he would still prefer to see him win with CB and get a chance to win gold with team canada.

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10-11-2003, 12:59 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
How long are you going to take to realize one individual is not like another?
That he could be closer to Barrasso than Fichaud?
That he simply could set new standards?
He COULD do all of those things, but what's the likelihood that he will?

For every Barrasso that has come up and won the Vezina Trophy as an 18 year old, there have been many more goalies who have been ruined at a young age. There have also been many more goalies that have come up and spent time in the minors. Who are the starters in the NHL today?

Anaheim: Giguere: spent time in minors
Atlanta: Nurminen: came over pretty late in his career, played in minors
Boston: Potvin: completed junior career, played in AHL
Buffalo: Biron: played out junior eligibility, played in AHL
Calgary: Turek: came over as a Euro vet
Carolina: Weekes: spent years in the minors, NHL backup
Chicago: Thibault: came in at 18, played in the Q during the lockout
Colorado: Aebischer: time in minors and as backup behind Roy
Columbus: Denis: same as Aebischer
Dallas: Turco: finished college career, played in minors, then backed up Belfour
Detroit: Hasek: Euro vet
Edmonton: Salo: Euro vet who played in minors
Florida: Luongo: time in Q and in the AHL after being drafted
Los Angeles: Cechmanek: Euro vet
Minnesota: Fernandez: played in Q, minors, was a backup
Montreal: Theodore: finished Q career, split time with other Montreal goalies
Nashville: Vokoun: time in Montreal system, backed up Dunham
New Jersey: Brodeur: played in Q and in the AHL before coming up as a 22 year old.
Islanders: Snow: played in the AHL for years then backed up a bunch of goalies
Rangers: Dunham: long college career, AHL career, backed up Brodeur
Ottawa: Lalime: finished Q career, played in the IHL or AHL before landing steady job in Ottawa
Philadelphia: Hackett: finished juniors, played in minors, backed up in the NHL
Phoenix: Burke: played three years before coming up to play in the NHL
Pittsburgh: ?
St. Louis: Osgood: came up as a 20 year old having spent time in the WHL and some time in the AHL
San Jose: Nabokov: long apprenticeship in the minors before coming up
Tampa Bay: Khabibulin: played in Europe before coming over to minors, then played a few years as a backup
Toronto: Belfour: played parts of 4 years in the minors in the Hawks system before coming up as a 25 year old
Vancouver: Cloutier: finished career in juniors, played in minors and backed up Richter for awhile
Washington: Kolzig: spent years in the AHL and as a backup before breaking out.

Look at all the starters in the NHL today, and tell me Fleury is better than all of them at the same age. Fleury's career has been great so far, but plenty of guys have starred in the WJC, plenty of guys have shone when they first came up, plenty of guys have been drafted in the first round. Plenty of guys have been sent down before.

Fleury could develop into a Barrasso type rookie, but empiricim says the likelihood of that happening is unlikely in today's NHL. Teams like the Islanders rush their rookies. Teams like Ottawa don't.

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Old
10-11-2003, 02:27 PM
  #60
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I am now going over my Grandpaps to watch the Pitt game and then the Pens game...I really hope he somehow taped this for me. I was in Myrtle Beach when it happened.

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10-11-2003, 02:37 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
He COULD do all of those things, but what's the likelihood that he will?

For every Barrasso that has come up and won the Vezina Trophy as an 18 year old, there have been many more goalies who have been ruined at a young age. There have also been many more goalies that have come up and spent time in the minors. Who are the starters in the NHL today?

Anaheim: Giguere: spent time in minors
Atlanta: Nurminen: came over pretty late in his career, played in minors
Boston: Potvin: completed junior career, played in AHL
Buffalo: Biron: played out junior eligibility, played in AHL
Calgary: Turek: came over as a Euro vet
Carolina: Weekes: spent years in the minors, NHL backup
Chicago: Thibault: came in at 18, played in the Q during the lockout
Colorado: Aebischer: time in minors and as backup behind Roy
Columbus: Denis: same as Aebischer
Dallas: Turco: finished college career, played in minors, then backed up Belfour
Detroit: Hasek: Euro vet
Edmonton: Salo: Euro vet who played in minors
Florida: Luongo: time in Q and in the AHL after being drafted
Los Angeles: Cechmanek: Euro vet
Minnesota: Fernandez: played in Q, minors, was a backup
Montreal: Theodore: finished Q career, split time with other Montreal goalies
Nashville: Vokoun: time in Montreal system, backed up Dunham
New Jersey: Brodeur: played in Q and in the AHL before coming up as a 22 year old.
Islanders: Snow: played in the AHL for years then backed up a bunch of goalies
Rangers: Dunham: long college career, AHL career, backed up Brodeur
Ottawa: Lalime: finished Q career, played in the IHL or AHL before landing steady job in Ottawa
Philadelphia: Hackett: finished juniors, played in minors, backed up in the NHL
Phoenix: Burke: played three years before coming up to play in the NHL
Pittsburgh: ?
St. Louis: Osgood: came up as a 20 year old having spent time in the WHL and some time in the AHL
San Jose: Nabokov: long apprenticeship in the minors before coming up
Tampa Bay: Khabibulin: played in Europe before coming over to minors, then played a few years as a backup
Toronto: Belfour: played parts of 4 years in the minors in the Hawks system before coming up as a 25 year old
Vancouver: Cloutier: finished career in juniors, played in minors and backed up Richter for awhile
Washington: Kolzig: spent years in the AHL and as a backup before breaking out.

Look at all the starters in the NHL today, and tell me Fleury is better than all of them at the same age. Fleury's career has been great so far, but plenty of guys have starred in the WJC, plenty of guys have shone when they first came up, plenty of guys have been drafted in the first round. Plenty of guys have been sent down before.

Fleury could develop into a Barrasso type rookie, but empiricim says the likelihood of that happening is unlikely in today's NHL. Teams like the Islanders rush their rookies. Teams like Ottawa don't.
I guess you answered my questions : a long, long time...

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Old
10-11-2003, 09:05 PM
  #62
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People like to point out Tom Barrasso as an example of an 18-year old success story. But looking over his career, was it really good for his long term devolpment? I never saw him play during that time, but his GAA his first two years in the league, '84 and 85' respectively, was 2.83 and 2.66, but it never dropped below the 3.00 mark again until the '98 season. Do any of the older posters remember how Barrasso developed after that rookie year?

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10-12-2003, 12:45 AM
  #63
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Barrasso is a HOF goalie, with Vezina, Calder, and TWO stanley Cups on his resume. Playing in a goal scoring era on goal scoring oriented teams, he managed to be the difference between winning and losing more often than not.
Contrary to popular belief, it was no piece of cake playing behind Pittsburgh's defense through the 90s.

And I think I remember back in 95-96 or something like that that he had nearly the best numbers in the league (under Constantine), which only stresses that with a defensive system, Barrasso could have outstanding numbers.

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10-12-2003, 10:01 AM
  #64
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exactly.

Barrasso was a top goalie, you'd never know it by his stats, but, as it's been said, he played in a goal scorers era and played on a team that didn't know the meaning of "defense".

Barrasso is a definite HOFer.

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10-12-2003, 11:21 AM
  #65
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Yes, Barrasso has had a good career. But I'm wondering how much he was able to develop as a goaltender following his rookie season, and if there was any negative long-term effects by being thrust in the spotlight so early. So, anyone who remember watching him in his days with Buffalo would be appreciated.

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10-12-2003, 12:50 PM
  #66
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Didn't we already have this debate?

Fleury has earned his way onto the team through talent. He has shown that talent, and mental toughness in his first game. He will learn more in the NHL this year than in Juniors. It will not do him any good to dominate in Juniors so that he can 'party it up' or something.

He has earned his way onto the team and into the NHL, plain and simple.

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10-12-2003, 03:34 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doomsday Device
People like to point out Tom Barrasso as an example of an 18-year old success story. But looking over his career, was it really good for his long term devolpment? I never saw him play during that time, but his GAA his first two years in the league, '84 and 85' respectively, was 2.83 and 2.66, but it never dropped below the 3.00 mark again until the '98 season. Do any of the older posters remember how Barrasso developed after that rookie year?
No idea how he would have developed otherwise, but as far as immediate success goes, you can't argue that his early career was pretty impressive. His whole career, however, wasn't that spectacular. He won 2 Stanley Cups on some stacked teams, but I think that has more to do with Lemieux, Francis, Jagr, Coffey, Stevens, etc. than Barrasso himself. In my books he doesn't rank among the top 5 goalies who played during his career, as I'd rather have any one of Roy, Hasek, Belfour, Brodeur or Fuhr. As far as individual seasons and playoffs go, I can think of many goalies who completely outshone him at one time or another.

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10-12-2003, 03:36 PM
  #68
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Plus he always seemed to be battling injuries or in battling Ken Wregget to be the number one in Pittsburgh anyway.

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10-12-2003, 03:56 PM
  #69
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he only was battling Wregget in his latter years, Barrasso was a back-up probably his last 5 years, but in his prime he was great.

Brodeur was more after Barrasso than during, by the time Martin made it into the league as a starter Barrasso's career was on the fall.

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10-12-2003, 05:38 PM
  #70
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For those who didn't see the game, here are some videos couresy of the new and very much improved Penguin web page:

http://www.pittsburghpenguins.com/mu...eury_palffy.rm

http://www.pittsburghpenguins.com/mu...3fleury_sv2.rm

http://www.pittsburghpenguins.com/mu...3fleury_sv1.rm

http://www.pittsburghpenguins.com/mu...03fleury_ps.rm

The last one was on a penalty shot.


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10-12-2003, 06:28 PM
  #71
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I don't understand why neither the official site nor NHL.com included the toe-save on Frolov. I was sure that was a goal, and when it wasn't, I just assumed Frolov whiffed on it. But no, Fleury got a piece of it at the last second.

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10-13-2003, 06:43 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom_servo
I don't understand why neither the official site nor NHL.com included the toe-save on Frolov. I was sure that was a goal, and when it wasn't, I just assumed Frolov whiffed on it. But no, Fleury got a piece of it at the last second.
I thought the same thing.

Even on the slo-mo replay he still looked like he was moving fast.

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