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Toronto/St. Louis Proposal

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Old
11-09-2005, 03:05 PM
  #51
JonathanHuberdoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vedder19
first of all Brewer is not a legitimate #2. Potentially yes. But he is so inconsistant. He's definately a 3rd or 4th line dman tho.

As for Tucker he's a 3rd liner with potential (with the right linemates ) to be a 2nd liner. He has the talent, Quinn just has chose to use Tucker as a checker in his career rather than a scoring forward. Just look at Tuckers minor league numbers, he put up huge offensive numbers. I'm sure that if you gave him the chance he could be a potential 70+pt scorer (if given the right line mates that is)
My friend, if you give ANYONE the right linemates, they're score 70+ points.

Put Jon Sim on a line with Forseberg and Naslund and tell me how well he'll do.

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Old
11-09-2005, 03:06 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KovalevPantherFan
My friend, if you give ANYONE the right linemates, they're score 70+ points.

Put Jon Sim on a line with Forseberg and Naslund and tell me how well he'll do.
Yuri Khmylev with Pat LaFontaine and Alexander Mogilny?

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Old
11-09-2005, 03:13 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by KovalevPantherFan
If the Oilers used Brewer in a package for PRONGER, I'm sure he'll fetch more than an over-achieving 3rd liner and a "potentially" good defenseman. A 3rd round pick has little to no value in a deal like this.
Pronger's contract was a key factor in that deal.

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Old
11-09-2005, 03:21 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KovalevPantherFan
If the Oilers used Brewer in a package for PRONGER, I'm sure he'll fetch more than an over-achieving 3rd liner and a "potentially" good defenseman. A 3rd round pick has little to no value in a deal like this.
The only reason the deal happened was because it was a salary dump...hello! Pronger makes like what, 8 million if not more and that is after the rool back. There is no way Brewer is worth anything near Pronger. Tucker alone is worth Brewer. C'mon people, seriously now. Get your heads checked.

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Old
11-09-2005, 03:26 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bert
NO WAY Coliacovo cant make one of the least deep defences in the league. Brewer played for team Canada. He is a top 3 D something the leafs desperately need.

I think the leafs need Tuckers speed and grit after losing guys like Roberts and Nieuwendyk.

Antropov and Coliacovo for Brewer is an even trade for both teams.

Brewer for Theo Fleury... Fleury played for team canada.....

Brewer for Paul Henderson
Brewer for joe shomoe who played from team Canada...

what relevance does playing for team canada have... he isn't goign to make team canada this year....

Tuckers played for team Canada........

Brewer for Tucker ....

P.S. we don't need /want Brewer......

We need a Klee type D man...

McCabe Kaberle
Klee Cola
Klee-type Kronwall
Berg

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Old
11-09-2005, 03:27 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vedder19
The only reason the deal happened was because it was a salary dump...hello! Pronger makes like what, 8 million if not more and that is after the rool back. There is no way Brewer is worth anything near Pronger. Tucker alone is worth Brewer. C'mon people, seriously now. Get your heads checked.
Pronger was scheduled to make $7.4 million IIRC, after the extension it averaged to about $6 million or so.

People act like the Blues are bent over the barrel and should take whatever deal comes along. They're not. Suggesting that they should take Tucker straight up and be thrilled is being disingenuous and assumes that if the Blues don't take that offer, they'll never get anything better.

We don't need to make a trade right now. Period. We can suck all season long and we still don't need to make a trade right now. Go ahead and offer Tucker for Brewer - offer it all week long. It doesn't mean that (A) we have to take it, or (B) we're stupid for passing up that kind of a "sweetheart" deal.

Besides, the Leafs may yet need Tucker in the playoffs if they run into Ottawa again.

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Old
11-09-2005, 03:44 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Blues
Pronger was scheduled to make $7.4 million IIRC, after the extension it averaged to about $6 million or so.

People act like the Blues are bent over the barrel and should take whatever deal comes along. They're not. Suggesting that they should take Tucker straight up and be thrilled is being disingenuous and assumes that if the Blues don't take that offer, they'll never get anything better.

We don't need to make a trade right now. Period. We can suck all season long and we still don't need to make a trade right now. Go ahead and offer Tucker for Brewer - offer it all week long. It doesn't mean that (A) we have to take it, or (B) we're stupid for passing up that kind of a "sweetheart" deal.

Besides, the Leafs may yet need Tucker in the playoffs if they run into Ottawa again.

i guess first of all, I wouldn't trade Tucker straight up for Brewer as Tucker brings so much more to the table.

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Old
11-09-2005, 04:13 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Blues
Joe Sakic was a -10 in 1996-97 when the Avs were 49-24-9. Does that mean Sakic sucked defensively that year?

+/- is not the end-all, be-all defensive indicator that everyone thinks it is. Mathieu Dandenault is a career +49, and I don't know that you'll have an outpouring of people who'd take Dandenault over Brewer every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Good point, so what has Brewer done in the NHL to make a name for himself, yes +/- is not a good way to look at things, but the fact stands that Brewer is overrated because he made team Canada, and the +/- is just a part of why he is overrated and the fact that he hasn't scored over 30 points, so what has he done? Played solid D?

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11-09-2005, 04:18 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joepeps
Brewer is over rated... and makes almost 3 mill??? or is it more I don't know...

he would be #4 on our team behind

McCabe Kaberle Klee


Tucker is more valuable than Brewer he brings scoring checking agitator fighting passing.. He brings it all every game... and Carlo is just starting out... why the hell we Toronto do this??? Please tell me...


how about Alexei Shkotov and Barret Jackman for Ken Klee.....

thats basically what your saying... just i'm exhadurating it a little more
No offense, and I really do think that the inital deal avours St. Louis, but you are insane if you think Brewer would slot behind Klee. McCabe/KAberle is arguable as I see the three of them as being around even, perhaps Brewer a tad worse given his play this season.

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Old
11-09-2005, 04:29 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Blues
See the comment on Dandenault. Also add that Alexander Khavanov is a career +25.

And don't even try "Khavanov is better defensively than Brewer".
Yeah because Dandenault and Khavanov have been used to their abilities in their career.

Edmonton and St. Louis have tried to use Brewer as a top pairing defenceman and they're both now realizing that he isn't one. That's why he always has one of the worst +/- on his team.

When Brewer starts getting used in a role that suits him, then maybe that +/- will look a little better.

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Old
11-09-2005, 04:29 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vedder19
first of all Brewer is not a legitimate #2. Potentially yes. But he is so inconsistant. He's definately a 3rd or 4th line dman tho.

As for Tucker he's a 3rd liner with potential (with the right linemates ) to be a 2nd liner. He has the talent, Quinn just has chose to use Tucker as a checker in his career rather than a scoring forward. Just look at Tuckers minor league numbers, he put up huge offensive numbers. I'm sure that if you gave him the chance he could be a potential 70+pt scorer (if given the right line mates that is)

Coliacovo stock has fallen but that's just because Toronto has alot of depth when it comes to defense. Give him some time in the big leagues and I'm sure he'll put up better numbers than Brewer, that's for sure.
Geez. Talk about over optimism.

Tucker's a "potential 70 point scorer", eh? Tell me when he has ever scored at that clip in his career. No offense meant, but your post reminds me of hundreds I've read here before. "It is true that Joe Hockeyplayer has never put up big numbers in the league and, in fact, never shown a hint of big numbers. But, I personally think he could do better in different circumstances - better linemates, less defensive system, etc. So, therefore his trade value should be high."

Coliacova is "for sure" going to do better than Brewer? Coliacova hasn't even shown that he has a career ahead of him in the NHL. There is a very good chance (maybe even a better than even chance) that he is going to be a career AHL'er.

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Old
11-09-2005, 04:32 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueAndWhite
I don't think St. Louis is going to trade Jackman for the Toronto package.
From a Blues perspective I hope not, we need to keep Jackman.

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Old
11-09-2005, 04:41 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Frenzy1
That is about right. Not sure Carlo needs to be part of it, but it is more along the lines of what St. Louis would be looking for.

Brewer is only 26. It isn't like he is a grey beard. I really think the Blues will keep most of their Dmen and make a lot of moves at the deadline. Sending guys like Sillinger, Drake, Weinrich and hopefully Weight or KT all to teams making a playoff push for a chance to rebuild completely - al la Washington.

Truth is, we need a game breaking young forward. And we have plenty of Dmen, that are young and therefore have potential to get one.

Something like Jackman for Zherdev. But that wont happen as they are in the same division. But that is what I think our next move will be.
I also see us unloading most if not all of the okder guys as the year goes on and going with a rebuild. The only part of your post that I dont get is why you are so quick to think they are going to unload Jackman even for a good young forward like Zherdev. We need to keep Jackman.

I know his play has slipped a bit but he has missed a lot of time due to the shoulder injuries over the last seasons that were played and is adjusting to new rules and I just think we need to give him time to do this. It would be a big mistake to move him right now.

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Old
11-09-2005, 04:44 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Coliacova is "for sure" going to do better than Brewer? Coliacova hasn't even shown that he has a career ahead of him in the NHL with the Toronto Maple Leafs.
It's Colaiacovo and I fixed your statement for you.

The old Colaiacovo can't crack the Leafs roster statement - I love it.

He's had 3 training camps with the Leafs. He's deserved to be on the Leafs roster twice.

The first time around he was far too young so he was sent back to Juniors.

This year, he played well enough to be on the team but he was inexplicably left off the roster.

Pat Quinn also employed Wade Belak on defense for the 10 games of this NHL season. This is the same man that decided to not have Colaiacovo on the team this year. I fail to see how that reflects poorly on Colaiacovo.

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Old
11-09-2005, 04:48 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueAndWhite
It's Colaiacovo and I fixed your statement for you.

The old Colaiacovo can't crack the Leafs roster statement - I love it.

He's had 3 training camps with the Leafs. He's deserved to be on the Leafs roster twice.

The first time around he was far too young so he was sent back to Juniors.

This year, he played well enough to be on the team but he was inexplicably left off the roster.

Pat Quinn also employed Wade Belak on defense for the 10 games of this NHL season. This is the same man that decided to not have Colaiacovo on the team this year. I fail to see how that reflects poorly on Colaiacovo.
You honestly can't see how Colaiacovo failing to make the NHL three consecutive years in a row "reflects badly on him?" Can you really set at your keyboad with a straight face and try to convince the rest of us that this player is a top prospect despite the fact that he can't seem to earn a regular spot in the NHL? After three training camps, this stud prospect can't even make it out of the AHL.

If this player was even half as good as you guys suggest, he'd be in the league by now - either with the Leafs or some other team. The reality is that he is, and always has been, a marginal prospect that was grossly overrated by a small group of Leaf homers.

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Old
11-09-2005, 04:55 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury

Coliacova is "for sure" going to do better than Brewer? Coliacova hasn't even shown that he has a career ahead of him in the NHL. There is a very good chance (maybe even a better than even chance) that he is going to be a career AHL'er.
Simply nonsense, I don't know where you get off making a claim like that. There are a lot of factors that are involved in a case like this, one of which are the type of (read: offensive) dmen ahead of him on the depth chart and the needs of the team at the time.

Before writing him off as a career AHLer, I think you'd be wise to at least let him get the chance to either succeed or fail at the NHL level. His AHL play/history has dictacted that he should be afforded that opportunity.

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11-09-2005, 04:56 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
You honestly can't see how Colaiacovo failing to make the NHL three consecutive years in a row "reflects badly on him?" Can you really set at your keyboad with a straight face and try to convince the rest of us that this player is a top prospect despite the fact that he can't seem to earn a regular spot in the NHL? After three training camps, this stud prospect can't even make it out of the AHL.

If this player was even half as good as you guys suggest, he'd be in the league by now - either with the Leafs or some other team. The reality is that he is, and always has been, a marginal prospect that was grossly overrated by a small group of Leaf homers.
That's not because of his lack of talent, I'd slot Colaiacovo over Berg, Belak, Kronwall and for now Khavanov.

Yet, Pat Quinn wants a defensive defenseman rather than an offensive one, if we had 2 guys better then Kaberle and McCabe, lets say Foote and Barret Jackman, we would see Colaiacovo on the team and none the less he would be getting first unit powerplay minutes.

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11-09-2005, 04:58 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by think/blue
Simply nonsense, I don't know where you get off making a claim like that. There are a lot of factors that are involved in a case like this, one of which are the type of (read: offensive) dmen ahead of him on the depth chart and the needs of the team at the time.

Before writing him off as a career AHLer, I think you'd be wise to at least let him get the chance to either succeed or fail at the NHL level. His AHL play/history has dictacted that he should be afforded that opportunity.
Never mind, predicting that Colaiacovo will be a bust is Darth's pet project.

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11-09-2005, 04:58 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by think/blue
Simply nonsense, I don't know where you get off making a claim like that. There are a lot of factors that are involved in a case like this, one of which are the type of (read: offensive) dmen ahead of him on the depth chart and the needs of the team at the time.

Before writing him off as a career AHLer, I think you'd be wise to at least let him get the chance to either succeed or fail at the NHL level. His AHL play/history has dictacted that he should be afforded that opportunity.
When did I write him off as career AHL'er? I said there was a CHANCE maybe even a GOOD CHANCE that he'll be a AHL level guy. There is also a CHANCE that he'll make it to the NHL. But, the reality is that players who fail to get promoted after two or three seasons in the AHL generally don't have a good CHANCE of making it as an impact player and, at the very least, should be considered questionable prospects. We're talkign probabilities here. I'm not saying he definitely won't make it - I'm saying the odds are against him.

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11-09-2005, 04:59 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Never mind, predicting that Colaiacovo will be a bust is Darth's pet project.
That's right. Because, like the rest of the posters at hfboards.com, I'm part of the international anti-leafs conspiracy.

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Old
11-09-2005, 05:05 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Leaf Army
Yeah because Dandenault and Khavanov have been used to their abilities in their career.
O.....K...... Khavanov has been just above horrid defensively throughout his career, Dandenault was never rated as an outstanding defensive player even by most Red Wings fans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
Edmonton and St. Louis have tried to use Brewer as a top pairing defenceman and they're both now realizing that he isn't one. That's why he always has one of the worst +/- on his team.
Again - thank you for making a point for me. As a top-pairing defenseman (and it's not like he's had stellar guys on the other side playing D), he's expected to see more of the top opposing lines. Throw in the fact that most of the teams he's played on have been less than stellar, and yeah - I'd expect his +/- to not be so good.

But the point by joepeps that he's -40 for his career doesn't mean all that much to the discussion about his trade value. +/- is *not* the be-all indicator of defensive prowess that some claim it is. *That* is the point I was trying to make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tml4life
Good point, so what has Brewer done in the NHL to make a name for himself, yes +/- is not a good way to look at things, but the fact stands that Brewer is overrated because he made team Canada, and the +/- is just a part of why he is overrated and the fact that he hasn't scored over 30 points, so what has he done? Played solid D?
I guess he sucked just enough for Gretzky to consider putting him on the 2002 Olympic team. Also see my points above on +/-.

One final point on +/- as a tool for judging the defensive ability of a player: I talked with one Red Wings fan recently who pointed out how useless +/- was. He pointed out that in 2002-03 Dandenault was a -4 before getting paired with Lidstrom around mid-January; the rest of the season, he was +29. Did that mean Dandenault suddenly got eons better on defense? Or, was it all just a result of playing with Lidstrom?

I'm not saying we should get 2 1st round picks for Brewer, I'm just saying that some people here act like he's the second coming of chopped liver and the Blues should be thankful if someone dangles a 6th-round pick for him. Again - the Blues do not have to make a trade, so they don't have to take Tucker, Colaiacovo and a 3rd and feel grateful they even got that much. If the Blues are going to make a trade, they need young, skilled forwards coming back.

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11-09-2005, 05:07 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
That's right. Because, like the rest of the posters at hfboards.com, I'm part of the international anti-leafs conspiracy.
Writing that post at every available opportunity is another one of your pet projects.

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11-09-2005, 05:12 PM
  #73
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I read the early posts and could not believe my eyes...

thank god Darth Milbury step in to put back to earth the previous posters.

If the Leafs had a chance to get Brewer for Tucker, Colaiacovo and a 3rd. They would in the millisecond following the offer.

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11-09-2005, 05:29 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
When did I write him off as career AHL'er? I said there was a CHANCE maybe even a GOOD CHANCE that he'll be a AHL level guy. There is also a CHANCE that he'll make it to the NHL. But, the reality is that players who fail to get promoted after two or three seasons in the AHL generally don't have a good CHANCE of making it as an impact player and, at the very least, should be considered questionable prospects. We're talkign probabilities here. I'm not saying he definitely won't make it - I'm saying the odds are against him.
This isn't black and white like you're making it out to be. It's not simply "Carlo hasn't cracked the lineup in 3 years therefore he's likely to bust"...Some of the factors that are involved in this case, with this team have been provided, and I've yet to see anything reasonable (by anyone) to discount them.

It took an injury to Mats Sundin for Kyle Wellwood (who deserved to make the team out of camp, just like Colaiacovo) to get his shot and establish himself as an NHLer. He had offensive centers Allison, Sundin and Lindros ahead of him on the depth chart, and this isnt counting Steen and Stajan. He was allowed to make his rookie mistakes up here. They now accomodate him by moving Allison to the wing. I can tell you that Colaiacovo really hasnt been given that opportunity yet.

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11-09-2005, 05:38 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vedder19
Tucker alone is worth Brewer. C'mon people, seriously now. Get your heads checked.
You aren't serious, are you?

Might I suggest a self-examination prior to offering others advice.

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