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Toronto/St. Louis Proposal

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Old
11-09-2005, 10:39 PM
  #101
Darth Milbury
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
If you want Malone then go for it. I guess 40-50 point wingers don't come along too often.

I don't recall too many Leaf fans liking the idea of Tucker, Carlo and a 3rd anyway. The Leafs need more stability on their defence. Not another giant question mark who is perpetually on the verge of his breakout season.

In a few years, it will be interesting to look in hindsight at which package is considered better at that point.
The one issue not being discussed here is contracts. Tucker and Brewer are both UFA age, and both can be lost with the next contract. Malone, on the other hand, will be Pen property for a bit longer.

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11-09-2005, 10:42 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
The one issue not being discussed here is contracts. Tucker and Brewer are both UFA age, and both can be lost with the next contract. Malone, on the other hand, will be Pen property for a bit longer.
Malone's the same age as Brewer. And they're both only four years younger than Tucker.

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Old
11-09-2005, 10:53 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
The Leafs wouldn't have a rookie on their top four, so please, give me a break.

I feel that you are way off the mark on Colaiacovo. The difference between him being in the AHL playing a lot of minutes and Meszaros playing limited minutes in the NHL could just mean that the two teams have different development philosphies. Colaiacovo's offensive skills definitely put him in the top two potential.

And, Colaiacovo has only played a season and half's worth of time in the AHL.
So the Leafs have been simply playing a top 4 caliber defenceman in the AHL the whole time?

So either they are
A) packing it in for the year
B) just that confident in their current defensive corps.

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Old
11-09-2005, 11:43 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
Malone's the same age as Brewer. And they're both only four years younger than Tucker.
"Only" four years, eh?

Tucker and Brewer are both UFAs with the next contract. Malone will be a restricted FA. This coming summer, the price for UFA status will be 8 years of NHL service or 29 years of age. Malone will be neither, but Brewer and Tucker will both be UFAs. For that reason, I don't see the Pens moving Malone for either player.

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11-10-2005, 12:03 AM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
"Only" four years, eh?
Yup, only four years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Tucker and Brewer are both UFAs with the next contract. Malone will be a restricted FA. This coming summer, the price for UFA status will be 8 years of NHL service or 29 years of age. Malone will be neither, but Brewer and Tucker will both be UFAs. For that reason, I don't see the Pens moving Malone for either player.
Tucker isn't a UFA this summer.

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Old
11-10-2005, 12:08 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Do I really need to make up a list of players who have gone directly from the SEL to the NHL without a minute in the AHL? Are you really going to make me waste my time?

Meszaros is the number 6 defenceman on his team, there is a long way to go before saying that he has anything up on Colaiacovo. Colaiacovo has offensive skills that few defenceman of his age have which is what separates him from a lot of the defensive prospects.

I will be interested to see where I said that the AHL is better than the SEL because I have always stated the opposite if anything.
So, you're telling me that the SEL is better than the AHL,eh? Then Nilsson has managed to play for three consectutive seasons at higher levels than Colaiacovo. I think I rest my case as far as comparison of the two prospects are concerned.

The argument you're making here with regard to Meszaros completely reverses your earlier claims. A few months back, you were arguing that Cola was the better prospect because he had been able to produce at a "higher level." But, now it is Meszaros who has taken the next step, and Cola who has failed to make it. Meszaros managed to do in one season as a pro what Cola could not accompllish in three seasons. And, yet you still maintain that being a regular in the AHL is somehow better than being a regular in the NHL.

And, where are all these game breaking offensive skills you are talking about? Cola has a career high in the AHL of six goals. He never scored more than 40 points in a junior season. Bobby Orr he is not.

Many, many holes in your post.

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11-10-2005, 01:06 AM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
The Leafs wouldn't have a rookie on their top four, so please, give me a break.
They have a rookie on the top line beside Mats Sundin, I see no reason why that's any less likely then a rookie on the 2nd D pairing.

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Old
11-10-2005, 01:10 AM
  #108
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FWIW Tucker is signed through 06-07 at 1.596M/yr.
He'll be an UFA thereafter however, personally I would be very willing to give him a bit of a raise in order to resign him if need be.

I hope and think he'd be willing to return as long as we put forth a reasonably competitive offer.

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Old
11-10-2005, 02:07 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
Yup, only four years.



Tucker isn't a UFA this summer.
Four years is not a trivial issue. If you gave up four years in a trade, you'd be annoyed. That is 1/3 of an NHL career.

Thanks for clarifying Tucker's contract status. But, the fact remains, he'll be an UFA when his current contract is up as will Brewer. Malone will be a RFA.

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Old
11-10-2005, 07:58 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
So, you're telling me that the SEL is better than the AHL,eh? Then Nilsson has managed to play for three consectutive seasons at higher levels than Colaiacovo. I think I rest my case as far as comparison of the two prospects are concerned.

The argument you're making here with regard to Meszaros completely reverses your earlier claims. A few months back, you were arguing that Cola was the better prospect because he had been able to produce at a "higher level." But, now it is Meszaros who has taken the next step, and Cola who has failed to make it. Meszaros managed to do in one season as a pro what Cola could not accompllish in three seasons. And, yet you still maintain that being a regular in the AHL is somehow better than being a regular in the NHL.

And, where are all these game breaking offensive skills you are talking about? Cola has a career high in the AHL of six goals. He never scored more than 40 points in a junior season. Bobby Orr he is not.

Many, many holes in your post.
flip the players and teams and then the situations would prob be identical (in regards to the Leaf player not making the team) ...and no doubt the arguments the same too for the reverse player.

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Old
11-10-2005, 08:44 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
That's right. Because, like the rest of the posters at hfboards.com, I'm part of the international anti-leafs conspiracy.

to be completely honest, every post in this thread suggests this wasn't sarcastic drivle.

In fact, I am extremely disappointed with this board. There isn't one person on this board who can look at the Toronto Maple Leafs without bias.

Fact:
Carlo Colaiacovo has twice been sent down, mainly because Pat Quinn is more comfortable with veterans. It was not because he failed, but because of numbers. This past pre season he was kind of over shadowed by the emergence of Kronwall and Wozniewski. It wasn't that he failed. Also, the Leafs once again brought in a veteran (Khavanov) which reduced his chances, especially when you need to be within 20 years of collectiong old age security to gain Pat Quinn's trust.

Objective thinking:
While in the AHL he has worked on his defensive game to the point where he isn't the irresponsible kid that played in the WJC for Canada a number of years ago. He is not a bust.

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Old
11-10-2005, 09:34 AM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of Puppets
No offense, and I really do think that the inital deal avours St. Louis, but you are insane if you think Brewer would slot behind Klee. McCabe/KAberle is arguable as I see the three of them as being around even, perhaps Brewer a tad worse given his play this season.

Would you agree that our team sucks defensively??? were a -ve team...
Ken Klee has not been on the ice for a goal against this year, so far.....
I would rank Ken Klee as our best DEFENSIVE defenceman....

if you think i'm crazy then so be it... I would feel more comfortable with Klee in the final mins when were ahead by 1 goal than a McCabe.....

sorry.. just my opinon...

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Old
11-10-2005, 09:39 AM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zamboner
So the Leafs have been simply playing a top 4 caliber defenceman in the AHL the whole time?

So either they are
A) packing it in for the year
B) just that confident in their current defensive corps.

McCabe Kaberle Klee

Colaiacovo>Kronwall,Khavanov,Berg,Belak

The lines would be

McCabe Kaberle
Klee Cola
Kronwall Berg
Pilar

so yeah if your saying Belak is better than Cola because Carlo isn't on the team then instead of Tucker and Cola make it Belak and Tucker for Brewer lol...
Because obviouslly Belak cracked teh lineup and played Defence he must be better

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11-10-2005, 09:45 AM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joepeps
Ken Klee has not been on the ice for a goal against this year, so far.....
Say what now? or is this some kinda sarcasm thing?

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Old
11-10-2005, 09:59 AM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hounsy
Say what now? or is this some kinda sarcasm thing?
RK Player Team Pos GP G A P +/-
1 KEN KLEE TOR D 15 1 5 6 5

my bad.. 1 goal.. he's been on for

I was thinking about Antropov... he hasn't been on for a goal yet...

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Old
11-10-2005, 10:06 AM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
So, you're telling me that the SEL is better than the AHL,eh? Then Nilsson has managed to play for three consectutive seasons at higher levels than Colaiacovo. I think I rest my case as far as comparison of the two prospects are concerned.

The argument you're making here with regard to Meszaros completely reverses your earlier claims. A few months back, you were arguing that Cola was the better prospect because he had been able to produce at a "higher level." But, now it is Meszaros who has taken the next step, and Cola who has failed to make it. Meszaros managed to do in one season as a pro what Cola could not accompllish in three seasons. And, yet you still maintain that being a regular in the AHL is somehow better than being a regular in the NHL.

And, where are all these game breaking offensive skills you are talking about? Cola has a career high in the AHL of six goals. He never scored more than 40 points in a junior season. Bobby Orr he is not.

Many, many holes in your post.
The Nilsson thing was just to refute your claim of only 10 games of pro experience, I couldn't realy care less how he compares to Colaiacovo.

As far as junior stats go, 35 points in 35 games in his last year as well as leading Team Canada in points for both forwards and defencemen in the WJC in 2003. He has the speed, shot, and passing ability and plays tough as well.

Think what you want to think but I went through all this with Wellwood also and that turned out okay. I don't label a prospect as being very good unless I see something special and I don't want to spend any more time arguing with a guy who may never have seen him play anyhow.

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Old
11-10-2005, 10:08 AM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joepeps
RK Player Team Pos GP G A P +/-
1 KEN KLEE TOR D 15 1 5 6 5

my bad.. 1 goal.. he's been on for

I was thinking about Antropov... he hasn't been on for a goal yet...
how do those stats show that he's been on for one goal? I don't doubt you but if you're going to offer proof that wasn't it.

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11-10-2005, 10:10 AM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joepeps
RK Player Team Pos GP G A P +/-
1 KEN KLEE TOR D 15 1 5 6 5

my bad.. 1 goal.. he's been on for

I was thinking about Antropov... he hasn't been on for a goal yet...
lee giving the puck away for a goal in one of the Washington games is still clear in my mind.

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11-10-2005, 10:12 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by ACC1224
how do those stats show that he's been on for one goal? I don't doubt you but if you're going to offer proof that wasn't it.
It doesn't I looked at a few game sheets and Klee was on for an even strength goal in three of the last four games.

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Old
11-10-2005, 10:17 AM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hounsy
It doesn't I looked at a few game sheets and Klee was on for an even strength goal in three of the last four games.
he has 6 points and he's a +5.. whats so hard to see??????

6-5=1 or atleast that is what I learned....

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Old
11-10-2005, 10:21 AM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joepeps
he has 6 points and he's a +5.. whats so hard to see??????

6-5=1 or atleast that is what I learned....
you don't have to get a point to get a plus, just be on the ice...you should probably avoid using the "teach" so much...just shows arrogance espiecially when you're wrong.

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11-10-2005, 10:29 AM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joepeps
he has 6 points and he's a +5.. whats so hard to see??????

6-5=1 or atleast that is what I learned....
Oh so that's the equation that got you to say "Ken Klee has not been on the ice for a goal against this year, so far....."



The other guys right, you should lay of the teach thing a little.

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11-10-2005, 10:29 AM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hounsy
It doesn't I looked at a few game sheets and Klee was on for an even strength goal in three of the last four games.
KLEE, KEN E Tuesday, November 8, 2005
KLEE, KEN +1 Sunday, November 6, 2005
KLEE, KEN +2 Saturday, November 5, 2005
KLEE, KEN +3 Thursday, November 3, 2005
KLEE, KEN E Monday, October 31, 2005
KLEE, KEN -2 Saturday, October 29, 2005
KLEE, KEN -1 Thursday, October 27, 2005
KLEE, KEN +1 Saturday, October 22, 2005
KLEE, KEN -2 Saturday, October 22, 2005

sorry i'm wrong... it's been more than 1 goal... ****ed up...
my bad... I know when to admit i'm wrong....

I forgot about goal he's been on the ice for.......

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Old
11-10-2005, 10:47 AM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury

Cola on the other hand has had TWO FULL YEARS in the AHL and has done nothing at the pro level. And, in his THIRD YEAR, he once again failed to make the team. Do you honestly not see the difference between a first year pro who has 10 games of pro experience and a third year pro?
I don't think you get the point, Cola has the talent to be on the Leafs right now but why would you have 4 offensive dmen?

McCabe
Kaberle
Khavanov
Colaiacovo.

And Again I'd say

Coco>Khavano anyways.

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Old
11-10-2005, 11:17 AM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tml4life
I don't think you get the point, Cola has the talent to be on the Leafs right now but why would you have 4 offensive dmen?

McCabe
Kaberle

Colaiacovo.

And Again I'd say

Coco>Khavano anyways.
So "Khavano" is an "offensive dman," eh? An offensive dman who scores betwen 20 - 30 points a year - basically the same numbers as most "defensive dmen."

Khavano is a brutal dman, and if Colaiacovo can't beat him out, that says something very significant to me.

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