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why does Gretzky get so little respect as a goal scorer?

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Old
11-20-2005, 09:42 AM
  #1
arrbez
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why does Gretzky get so little respect as a goal scorer?

Where does everyone rank him on the all-time list, and why is it so common to see him rated behind Bossy, Hull, and others?

From what I can tell, a healthy Lemiuex is the only guy who could have beaten his totals...

Is it because he's known as a "playmaker" first and foremost?

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11-20-2005, 10:33 AM
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez
Is it because he's known as a "playmaker" first and foremost?
id say thats one of the reasons. i mean he has more assists in his career than anyone else ever had points. how he did so is mind boggling. most people remember him for his office or the gretzky curl and making beautiful passes. not too many people remember that wicked slap shot he had.

so i think that a lot of people never saw him as a true sniper. of course he scored a lot of goals, but bossy and the hulls and bure etc got a lot more press because their assist numbers, while impressive, showed that they were first and foremost snipers. their main job it seemed was to put the puck in the net.

mike bossy - scored more goals than assists
pavel bure - scored more goals than assists
bobby hull - scored more goals than assists
brett hull - scored more goals than assists
maurice richard - scored more goals than assists
cam neely - scored more goals than assists


with gretzky that would have been damn near impossible.

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11-20-2005, 10:50 AM
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The main factor is that he's regarded as the best play-maker of all-time, like you said. The guy scores 50 goals in 39 games, but people are still gonna remember him as the guy who could set-up a pylon for a hat-trick.

I think another factor is he didn't have the booming shot associated with goal-scorers. You think of Bobby Hull, and you think of that cannon he had. You think of Bossy, and you think of his amazing quickness at getting off that laser of a shot. Bure had his blazing speed but also a deadly, quick release. Most of Gretz' goals were due to him out-thinking his opponent, not rifling it by them.

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11-20-2005, 11:18 AM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez
Where does everyone rank him on the all-time list, and why is it so common to see him rated behind Bossy, Hull, and others?

From what I can tell, a healthy Lemiuex is the only guy who could have beaten his totals...

Is it because he's known as a "playmaker" first and foremost?
Most people never take the time to research the facts and put them into historical context. People are lazy and rely on public opinion for their ideas about players.

The fact is, Gretzky is the 5th greatest goal scorer of all time, behind Gordie Howe, Bobby Hull, Maurice Richard and Phil Esposito. As we know from his 1981-82 season (92 goals), Gretzky could have been the greatest goal scorer of all time if he chose to. He chose to be the greatest playmaker instead and that is what he did.

Most people are too lazy to look deep into Gordie Howe's career as well and the write him off as "he played a long time, that is the reason his numbers look so good" Horse shi*! Gordie DOMINATED the NHL in the 50s and 60s. Until Gretzky came along, he was easily the most dominant force in NHL history.

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11-20-2005, 12:09 PM
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What stats do you base that on?

Gretzky scored more goals in total than anyone else (without having an excessively long Messier-style career), as well as having the 2 highest totalling seasons as well.

I realize that era's are different and the 80's was very high-scoring...but he still put up huge goal totals compared to his contemporaries as well.

If you could break down why Howe, Hull, Richard, and Esposito were better it would be appreciated

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11-20-2005, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez
What stats do you base that on?

Gretzky scored more goals in total than anyone else (without having an excessively long Messier-style career), as well as having the 2 highest totalling seasons as well.

I realize that era's are different and the 80's was very high-scoring...but he still put up huge goal totals compared to his contemporaries as well.

If you could break down why Howe, Hull, Richard, and Esposito were better it would be appreciated
Hi aarb.

My explanation is a little lengthy as to how I determine these rankings. I will get back to you on that.


Last edited by Ogopogo*: 11-20-2005 at 03:25 PM.
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11-20-2005, 02:44 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez
Where does everyone rank him on the all-time list, and why is it so common to see him rated behind Bossy, Hull, and others?

From what I can tell, a healthy Lemiuex is the only guy who could have beaten his totals...

Is it because he's known as a "playmaker" first and foremost?
Probably because the portion of his career when he was a dominant goalscorer was quite short - 4 seasons (1981-85) where he scored 70+ goals. For the rest of the 1980s, he was a 50-goalscorer, but not nearly as dominant, and 'merely' in a group of about 5 guys who were the best in the game. And in the 1990s, of course, his goal-scoring exploits became quite average, and when you're average in that regard for the last decade of your career, that's the impression you're going to leave. Especially since everyone under age 30-35 won't remember his dominant goal-scoring years.

By contrast, he was dominant as a playmaker for nearly 20 years, right to the end of his career.

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11-20-2005, 03:17 PM
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If Gretzkt began his NHL career in 1994 with the the NY Islanders (who sucked badly for the most part since then till now)... would he have been the same Great One?

Would Gretzky summount to anything better than a good 1st liner with: no quality team mates? In the clutch and grab era very different from the highscoring days of Gretzky's prime? During a time when people could actually hit him?

I dunno.

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11-20-2005, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slitty
If Gretzkt began his NHL career in 1994 with the the NY Islanders (who sucked badly for the most part since then till now)... would he have been the same Great One?

Would Gretzky summount to anything better than a good 1st liner with: no quality team mates? In the clutch and grab era very different from the highscoring days of Gretzky's prime? During a time when people could actually hit him?

I dunno.
Gretzky was dominant with crappy teammates (Re: Edmonton Oilers 1979-1981). The point totals are irrelevant. Gretzky would have been the best scorer in the NHL during the late 90 and 2000s. In 2003-04 he would have put up 140 points and Martin St. Louis would have been second with 94. That is the kind of dominance Gretzky had during the 80s.


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11-20-2005, 04:09 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slitty
If Gretzkt began his NHL career in 1994 with the the NY Islanders (who sucked badly for the most part since then till now)... would he have been the same Great One?

Would Gretzky summount to anything better than a good 1st liner with: no quality team mates? In the clutch and grab era very different from the highscoring days of Gretzky's prime? During a time when people could actually hit him?

I dunno.
I don't understand this argument at all. I have heard over the last couple days, that Gretzky was only good because of his teammates, that Messier was only good because he had no pressure because of Gretzky, that Kurri was only good because Gretzky passed to him, that Coffey was only good because of the offense in front of him and that Fuhr only had good win totals because of the team in front of him.

I don't get it anymore, when comes the time when we just watch the games and see who the best players are? Gretzky was dominant.

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11-20-2005, 04:24 PM
  #11
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I think it's because he didn't have that great booming shot that Richard, the Hulls, Geoffrion, Bossy, Kurri, Esposito, Mikita, Lemieux and Howe possessed. He had an array of good shots which he got off quickly and accurately (witness the winning goal against Calgary in the 1988 playoffs) but it was by no means a powerful, unstoppable shot. A lot of his goals came from his unmatched mind and vision for the game. He was seemingly one or two steps ahead of anyone on the ice, including the goalies. He could see those little gaps in a defence or the goalie that nobody else could.

I think the ultimate story on Gretzky's smarts comes from the great Don Cherry. Early in his career, Cherry and another individual were watching Gretzky play, when Gretzky scored from behind the net, banking a shot in off the goalie. The one person said it was a fluke, Cherry said no, Gretzky meant to do it, because Gretzky could see those opportunities that nobody else could. I think the winning goal against Toronto in Game 7 in 1993, when he banked it in off Ellett's skate, is the ultimate example of his wizardry.

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11-20-2005, 04:26 PM
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I've watched over half of the 1000+ NHL goals Gretzky has scored over the course of his regular season and playoff career and yet only a few stick out in my memory.

But I can think of dozens of amazing passes he has made, and moves with the puck which defy logic. (And I don't mean his office behind the net)

The way Gretzky would turn in odd unpredictable directions, pause and pass exactly to where a player will be in a second... I have seen nothing like it.

It's not a question of quantity, for me. Gretzky's passes just were more exceptional than his scorings.

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11-20-2005, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
...it was by no means a powerful, unstoppable shot. A lot of his goals came from his unmatched mind and vision for the game. He was seemingly one or two steps ahead of anyone on the ice, including the goalies. He could see those little gaps in a defence or the goalie that nobody else could.
Yeah, he didn't need a hard shot up close. He would undress the goalie.

But let's not forget he had a gun of a slap shot too. Probably most notable was the 60-footer in his short playoff stint in St. Louis.

If I was a coach in an ideal world with every hockey player in their prime and my team was down a goal, there's nobody I'd send over the boards ahead of Gretzky. Nobody.

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11-20-2005, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez
Where does everyone rank him on the all-time list, and why is it so common to see him rated behind Bossy, Hull, and others?

From what I can tell, a healthy Lemiuex is the only guy who could have beaten his totals...

Is it because he's known as a "playmaker" first and foremost?
No, no little arrbez, its because the Oilers won without him after he took all his big goals to Lo$ Angele$, he needed protection like no other top player in history in order to score, his goal production dropped by almost 50% in his twenties, his management demanded ice time even with empty nets in order to pad goal totals, he had no respect for older goal scorers like Howe, he scored many many cheap goals whereas true stars like Howe would back off, and of course he was a total minus player for the last 12 years of a 19 year career - he could have helped his team more rather than pile 'em up by hanging at centre.

Thats why.

Having said that he was a good offensive player but stoppable. His stats tend to blind the blind.

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11-20-2005, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
No, no little arrbez, its because the Oilers won without him after he took all his big goals to Lo$ Angele$, he needed protection like no other top player in history in order to score, his goal production dropped by almost 50% in his twenties, his management demanded ice time even with empty nets in order to pad goal totals, he had no respect for older goal scorers like Howe, he scored many many cheap goals whereas true stars like Howe would back off, and of course he was a total minus player for the last 12 years of a 19 year career - he could have helped his team more rather than pile 'em up by hanging at centre.

Thats why.

Having said that he was a good offensive player but stoppable. His stats tend to blind the blind.
here we go...

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11-20-2005, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
No, no little arrbez, its because the Oilers won without him after he took all his big goals to Lo$ Angele$, he needed protection like no other top player in history in order to score, his goal production dropped by almost 50% in his twenties, his management demanded ice time even with empty nets in order to pad goal totals, he had no respect for older goal scorers like Howe, he scored many many cheap goals whereas true stars like Howe would back off, and of course he was a total minus player for the last 12 years of a 19 year career - he could have helped his team more rather than pile 'em up by hanging at centre.

Thats why.

Having said that he was a good offensive player but stoppable. His stats tend to blind the blind.
Definitely stoppable. I remember Lafleur putting a 20 year old Gretzky in his "back pocket" back in '81.

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11-20-2005, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
No, no little arrbez, its because the Oilers won without him after he took all his big goals to Lo$ Angele$, he needed protection like no other top player in history in order to score, his goal production dropped by almost 50% in his twenties, his management demanded ice time even with empty nets in order to pad goal totals, he had no respect for older goal scorers like Howe, he scored many many cheap goals whereas true stars like Howe would back off, and of course he was a total minus player for the last 12 years of a 19 year career - he could have helped his team more rather than pile 'em up by hanging at centre.

Thats why.

Having said that he was a good offensive player but stoppable. His stats tend to blind the blind.

This post, like all of his garbage, is for no other reason than to try to get a reaction, lads. Pretend it's the monster in the closet; if you ignore it he will go away.

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11-20-2005, 07:17 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Definitely stoppable.
Just quoting Larry Robinson.

I agree dave Hunter was able to stop an unmotivated Flower by Spring 1981.
Whats Guy got to do with a Toe thread?

The only unstoppable players in their prime that I saw were #4, #10 and #66.

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11-20-2005, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
No, no little arrbez, its because the Oilers won without him after he took all his big goals to Lo$ Angele$, he needed protection like no other top player in history in order to score, his goal production dropped by almost 50% in his twenties, his management demanded ice time even with empty nets in order to pad goal totals, he had no respect for older goal scorers like Howe, he scored many many cheap goals whereas true stars like Howe would back off, and of course he was a total minus player for the last 12 years of a 19 year career - he could have helped his team more rather than pile 'em up by hanging at centre.

Thats why.

Having said that he was a good offensive player but stoppable. His stats tend to blind the blind.
Time to take your medicine now, Cooch.

Gretzky didn't start to slow down until he went to St. Louis when he was WELL into his 30's (about 35.5, I believe). Yes, his goal scoring totals were lower, but so were Super Mario's. In 1996-97 Mario scored 50 goals in 76 games, quite a drop from his normal average.

At the age of 30, Gretzky scored 41 goals. So much for "50% drop off in production". I guess compared to the 92 he scored when he was 21 it IS a big drop. But still pretty impressive, considering the era.

Gretzky was, for a 13 year period, one of the best goal scorers in history. 13 straight seasons over 40 goals is pretty good, especially considering he was also getting an average of 125 assists a year at the same time!
link: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php3?pid=2035

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11-20-2005, 07:26 PM
  #20
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Stoppable?

Here are some of Gretzky's PLAYOFF goal-scoring records:

Most playoff goals, career: 122
Most game winning goals in playoffs, career: 24
Most three-or-more goals games in playoffs (hat trick): 10 (eight three-goal games, two four-goal games)
Most short-handed goals, one playoff year: 3 (tied with five other players) 1983
Most short-handed goals, one playoff game: 2 (tied with eight other players) April 6, 1983

Other teams had one mission: "Stop Gretzky and we might win." They didn't do it much. And when they did, Gretz simply made perfect passes to shatter another dozen playoff records for assists and points.

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11-20-2005, 07:37 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
The only unstoppable players in their prime that I saw were #4, #10 and #66.
Dude, Alex Steen has yet to hit his prime. Be patient...

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11-20-2005, 07:39 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander
Stoppable?

Here are some of Gretzky's PLAYOFF goal-scoring records:

Most playoff goals, career: 122
Most game winning goals in playoffs, career: 24
Most three-or-more goals games in playoffs (hat trick): 10 (eight three-goal games, two four-goal games)
Most short-handed goals, one playoff year: 3 (tied with five other players) 1983
Most short-handed goals, one playoff game: 2 (tied with eight other players) April 6, 1983

Other teams had one mission: "Stop Gretzky and we might win." They didn't do it much. And when they did, Gretz simply made perfect passes to shatter another dozen playoff records for assists and points.
"Stop Toe and we might win"? I guess they did a good job considering how he kept missing the playoffs.

And breaking scoring records v. Chicago or Winnipeg in the playoffs aint exactlly Rocket Richard stuff. Didnt teh Oilers get 44 goals or something in a series against Murray Baananarman to set a scoring record.

Who cares about stats. All you throw out are cheap numbers from a cartoonish scoring era - I coudl throw 61 back at you.

Give me the signature moments - I asked a while back for the quintessential Toe game all I got was a lame Leafs game where he scored on Felix Potvin after going around Dave Ellet.

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11-20-2005, 08:36 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Albino
The main factor is that he's regarded as the best play-maker of all-time, like you said. The guy scores 50 goals in 39 games, but people are still gonna remember him as the guy who could set-up a pylon for a hat-trick.

I think another factor is he didn't have the booming shot associated with goal-scorers. You think of Bobby Hull, and you think of that cannon he had. You think of Bossy, and you think of his amazing quickness at getting off that laser of a shot. Bure had his blazing speed but also a deadly, quick release. Most of Gretz' goals were due to him out-thinking his opponent, not rifling it by them.

I agree with The Albino's assessment. Gretzky didn't have the kind of slapshot or wicked wrister that some of these other folks have, but he was exceptionally efficient. I also think that when you look at some of these others, like Bossy and Espo and Hull, they had a higher percentage of their points off of goals. Gretzky could have 80some goals, but his assist total would be like 120, which is relatively unheard of. He had 163 assists in one season! Because he was a better passer than goal scorer, he gets pegged with the tag of playmaker rather than goalscorer.

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11-20-2005, 09:17 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
"Stop Toe and we might win"? I guess they did a good job considering how he kept missing the playoffs.
Lemieux has missed the playoffs more than Gretzky.

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11-20-2005, 09:36 PM
  #25
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All time leader in NHL and WHA goals playoff and regular season:

Gretzky 1072
Howe 1071

Pretty cool eh?

Incidentally Bobby Hull 1018
Brett Hull 843
Messier 804
Lemieux 797

The top 6 goal scorers of all time by the goals they actually scored including playoffs. And to WHA naysayers, if Hull and Howe hadn't jumped to the WHA and just played a few of those years in the NHL they still end up number 2 and 3 all time.

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