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Old
07-26-2015, 03:05 PM
  #101
What The Puck
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Originally Posted by DoubleAAAA View Post
I don't think the filters will save but if you take all goaltenders from Sept 1/12 to current, minimum 2400 minutes TOI, Rask has the highest 5v5 save %, 2nd all situation Sv% (behind Cam Talbot whose played 140 fewer games over the same period)

I suppose facts are, indeed, facts.
Did you happen to see Holtby's save percentage?

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07-26-2015, 03:08 PM
  #102
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If your roster is full of average players then how are we going to get into the finals as it is your goal? Average goalie, no elite D players, no elite offensive players=stanley cup? More like top5pick.

Your Svedberg story is entertaining. Hard to believe you watch the games.
We are going to get there not by equating averages across the board, but finding value, where you are actually getting more for your dollar than the average. Doing this allows you to spend a little bit more on game breaking players. The discussion here is, when we talk about protecting players that are franchise players, that opinion needs to be validated. It's not here.

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07-26-2015, 03:52 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by What The Puck View Post

Svedberg, much-maligned as he is, has a GAA of 2.33 compared to Rask's 2.30. Svedberg was ran out of town and has been declared not a good backup goaltender, but his performance is nearly identical to Rask's (including save percentage), who some are declaring as elite.
You know being a starting goalie and being a backup is a whole different animal right? I liken it to pinch hitting almost in baseball. It's an art, some of the greatest everyday players wouldn't have been great pinch hitters. He was one of the biggest reasons (save for that tire fire of a D in front of him) Tuukka was as "bad" as you say he was last year. Svedberg was "run out of town" because he couldn't nut up for 20 games and put his big boy pants on.

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07-26-2015, 03:59 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by What The Puck View Post
I understand that Rask is a sacred cow around here, and that these kinds of facts are disturbing for a lot of fans. Putting his statistics next to Svedberg was probably very alarming. Manipulating time on ice to exclude the comparison to Svedberg is clever, but it doesn't hold water because it was both of their performances that added up to this season, and they both performed comparatively. One of whom is called elite and the other who was ran out of town. Facts are facts.
I for one do think rask is overrated but it would be idiotic to not protect him and lose him for nothing when you can easily just trade him and get assets in return

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07-26-2015, 04:06 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by What The Puck View Post
We are going to get there not by equating averages across the board, but finding value, where you are actually getting more for your dollar than the average. Doing this allows you to spend a little bit more on game breaking players. The discussion here is, when we talk about protecting players that are franchise players, that opinion needs to be validated. It's not here.
To me this makes no sense, I don't think you know the cap world right now and the money players are getting, I really don't get this at all. You have elite player signed through his prime at 7M when you see 10M+ contracts to elite players, I just don't get this.

I haven't seen a team with zero elite talent win the Cup.
I'm going to assume your game breaking players aren't elite players because it wouldn't make any sense so we'd have a lineup full of average players and then few stronger players with average goaltending, that's so bad.

Tell me this, Rask is our top2 player with Bergeron, how are you going to find a player who can replace his value to us and how much would that trade take from us and how big the cap hit would be for that player, can you get another elite player with 7M?
No matter what you say Rask is elite, every gm in the league would say that, pretty much every fan says that, pretty much every expert says that, I just think you don't like him because he's a Finn

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07-26-2015, 04:09 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by What The Puck View Post
I am one of the smarter posters, so part of what you have to understand is, the salary-cap is around $70 million.

You can have 23 people on the roster (also known as committed salary). Usually 18 skaters and 2 goaltenders have to show up for the game.

That's an average of 3 million per player to go around. Rask, is taking up the salary of just over two people and 10% of the payroll. Is he worth it?

Rask is number 26 overall (including some with a lesser number of games) for GAA:
http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?sort...20152ALLGAGALL

Svedberg, much-maligned as he is, has a GAA of 2.33 compared to Rask's 2.30. Svedberg was ran out of town and has been declared not a good backup goaltender, but his performance is nearly identical to Rask's (including save percentage), who some are declaring as elite.

Facts are facts. [MOD] The goal is to win championships and build a championship team. Given the facts in this post, salary and performance, comparison to his backup, his resume, is he elite? The answer is no. And so, if he goes to an expansion team, so be it.
Well thank you for putting me in my place, WTP.



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07-26-2015, 04:37 PM
  #107
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A goalie that has the best save% of all time and the best gaa of active players is not elite?

A goalie that took you to game 6 of the stanley cup finals, won the cup as a back up and is just starting to be in his prime agewise?

Sure he is a bum for not been able to beat the hawks in 2013 just like all the goalies of the west that could not do the same in that years playoffs.

There is just no pleasing some people...


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07-26-2015, 05:37 PM
  #108
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This question is for What the Puck. I am just curious...since Holtby is simply not an option...if not Rask....who is the excellent value goaltender the Bruins should sign?

Do you really think The Bruins could have ridden Scedberg to the cup? Maybe Ray Emery? He's surely a great value.

I am really confused by your posts...and Rask isn't even a Sacred Cow. If Subban or McIntyre emerge and push....Rask is traded. Aside from that, he's our goaltender because he gives the Bruins the best chance to win.

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07-26-2015, 05:50 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by What The Puck View Post
Did you happen to see Holtby's save percentage?
Yes:

Tuukka.Rask BOS 198 93.75
Braden.Holtby WSH 177 93.01

Go on ....

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07-26-2015, 06:40 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by DoubleAAAA View Post
Yes:

Tuukka.Rask BOS 198 93.75
Braden.Holtby WSH 177 93.01

Go on ....
I think we are talking about the "War on ice" website statistics. The default date range from 2014 to 2015 has Holtby 92.67 over Rask 92.24.

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07-26-2015, 06:44 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Son of Donegal View Post
This question is for What the Puck. I am just curious...since Holtby is simply not an option...if not Rask....who is the excellent value goaltender the Bruins should sign?

Do you really think The Bruins could have ridden Scedberg to the cup? Maybe Ray Emery? He's surely a great value.

I am really confused by your posts...and Rask isn't even a Sacred Cow. If Subban or McIntyre emerge and push....Rask is traded. Aside from that, he's our goaltender because he gives the Bruins the best chance to win.
I would have traded him back in 2014 at his highest value, knowing his true value. I would have kept Martin Jones. Finally, I would have paired a reliable journeyman with one of our younger goalies.

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07-26-2015, 06:47 PM
  #112
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Rask is a very good goalie. That's basically all there is to it. I don't think he's the best in the league but that's not the point.

Bruins wouldn't have been anywhere near the playoffs without him last year.

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07-26-2015, 06:48 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by BB88 View Post
Tell me this, Rask is our top2 player with Bergeron
No way is he a top two player on our team. And your comments about my not liking Finnish players is a little misleading. I think it's one of the weakest player pools for the NHL style of game when it comes to hockey development, but I don't have anything personally against Finland.

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07-26-2015, 06:55 PM
  #114
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No way is he a top two player on our team. And your comments about my not liking Finnish players is a little misleading. I think it's one of the weakest player pools for the NHL style of game when it comes to hockey development, but I don't have anything personally against Finland.
Something tells me that if you were on this board 5 years ago you'd have been pounding the table for Manny Fernandez over Thomas even though Thomas was leading the team to the best record in the Eastern Conference.

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07-26-2015, 07:08 PM
  #115
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No way is he a top two player on our team. And your comments about my not liking Finnish players is a little misleading. I think it's one of the weakest player pools for the NHL style of game when it comes to hockey development, but I don't have anything personally against Finland.
I can tell you that our situation is looking the best it has been when it comes to prospects, lot of 1st round talent growing up. But it's funny that you weren't fan of the Kemppainen signing, not a fan of Rask, were ready to lose it if we would have drafted Rantanen and you think Finnish league isn't that strong

And if I got you right you want to have good value contracts, great cheap players so we can pay for top players and have balanced/strong lineup?
If so I agree but this is why I don't get you,

1st, that's why you need strong drafting and our prospect pool is strong+deep, we are going to see lot of strong elc players/rfa players in our lineup allowing us to spend on top players and we don't have to be in cap hell for a long time, right now we don't have brutal contracts and we can push those kids into lineup when they are ready, not to replace elite players but other ones, we've lost enough elite talent already and expect them to improve our lineup and not just be roster fillers.

Then you look at that elite players these days get 9, 10M+ with their new contracts, and we have 2 elite players and here's the great part,
Bergeron locked up through his prime at 6.85M and Rask the 2nd elite player locked up through his prime at 7M, so we have 2 elite players on great contracts but you are not happy about it?

Those 2 elite contracts+ deep/strong prospect pool+ no brutal longterm contracts will make sure we can have strong, balanced lineup and pay for top players and no need to be in cap hell for a long long time, there is zero reason to trade Rask our 2nd elite player for 1-2M savings. Yes Rask is elite.

But if you say we should let go of Rask we need to find like you said a game changer, impact player, well 1st we need to find those with Rask in the lineup, without Rask we'd have to find 2 elite/game changer players, 1 to replace Rasks value to this team and the other 1 to make us contenders/cup team.

So how on earth are we going to get those? You won't sign those as UFA or if you can I can promise you 7M is not enough and no team is ready to give up those players if you don't completely kill your team and hen you have to re-sign them I can again promise you 7M is not enough which means we are facing cap hell with those huge huge elite contracts, so be happy with elite players at max 7M and let's build the deepest, strongerst lineup in the league, with Rask and Bergeron we have the chance.

Anf finally yes Bergeron+Rask are my top2 value guys for this team.

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07-26-2015, 07:35 PM
  #116
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I think we are talking about the "War on ice" website statistics. The default date range from 2014 to 2015 has Holtby 92.67 over Rask 92.24.
Exactly, from the War on Ice website, clearly explained in my post to which you responded ... from 2012 to 2015 Rask has 198 GP with a .9375 Sv%, Holtby has 177 GP with a .9301 Sv%

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07-26-2015, 07:54 PM
  #117
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I actually watch the games. You can search my posts. How many softies do you think he gave up? In the game day threads this year, go ahead and do a search. Search for softies.

I think Holtby is better and is a better competitor, and at a better price. $7 million for repeated softies and subpar play, it's a joke. Rask is the third highest paid goaltender in the NHL and is not even a Vezina finalist. Nine goaltenders were picked above him as nominees. Elite, right?
Some arguments are incredibly stupid to try to defend. When you get caught on the wrong side of one you should drop it and hope no one remembers you ever bringing it up

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07-26-2015, 07:55 PM
  #118
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I can tell you that our situation is looking the best it has been when it comes to prospects, lot of 1st round talent growing up. But it's funny that you weren't fan of the Kemppainen signing, not a fan of Rask, were ready to lose it if we would have drafted Rantanen and you think Finnish league isn't that strong
Yes, this is accurate.

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And if I got you right you want to have good value contracts, great cheap players so we can pay for top players and have balanced/strong lineup?
If so I agree but this is why I don't get you,
I thought this thread was particularly about expansion and protecting players. Our goaltending depth is quite high, and it was even higher with Martin Jones who I believe it was a mistake to trade. I'm not talking about saving $2 million. I'm talking about saving between $4 and $5 million.

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1st, that's why you need strong drafting and our prospect pool is strong+deep, we are going to see lot of strong elc players/rfa players in our lineup allowing us to spend on top players
Why, because of the quantity of players? Surely we are going to strike gold with one of them? Well, they should hire me, because it's not about quantity. It's about quality, and the ability to analyze good players in relation to their value. It's easy to say that you want a bunch of Patrick Kane on your team, but you need to make value choices. That's where we disagree. I did not say Rask sucks. I said he wasn't elite. I gave statistics and a direct comparison to our backup goaltender from last year.

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Bergeron locked up through his prime at 6.85M and Rask the 2nd elite player locked up through his prime at 7M, so we have 2 elite players on great contracts but you are not happy about it?
I believe Bergeron is an elite player that is maybe one step below the $9 and $10 million folks. I don't know why you are talking about him. That's not what we are discussing. I would surely protect him during an expansion process.

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Yes Rask is elite.
He was marginally better than our backup goaltender on paper.

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So how on earth are we going to get those? You won't sign those as UFA or if you can I can promise you 7M is not enough
Well, for starters, you don't trade them to begin with. Tyler. Elite player. Gone.

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07-26-2015, 07:58 PM
  #119
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Yes, this is accurate.



I thought this thread was particularly about expansion and protecting players. Our goaltending depth is quite high, and it was even higher with Martin Jones who I believe it was a mistake to trade. I'm not talking about saving $2 million. I'm talking about saving between $4 and $5 million.


Why, because of the quantity of players? Surely we are going to strike gold with one of them? Well, they should hire me, because it's not about quantity. It's about quality, and the ability to analyze good players in relation to their value. It's easy to say that you want a bunch of Patrick Kane on your team, but you need to make value choices. That's where we disagree. I did not say Rask sucks. I said he wasn't elite. I gave statistics and a direct comparison to our backup goaltender from last year.


I believe Bergeron is an elite player that is maybe one step below the $9 and $10 million folks. I don't know why you are talking about him. That's not what we are discussing. I would surely protect him during an expansion process.


He was marginally better than our backup goaltender on paper.


Well, for starters, you don't trade them to begin with. Tyler. Elite player. Gone.
"On paper" means nothing. Maybe to you it does, since that's where you base 99% of you judgement.

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07-26-2015, 08:06 PM
  #120
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He was marginally better than our backup goaltender on paper.
And substantially better than him on the ice.

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07-26-2015, 08:07 PM
  #121
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I am one of the smarter posters, so part of what you have to understand is, the salary-cap is around $70 million.

You can have 23 people on the roster (also known as committed salary). Usually 18 skaters and 2 goaltenders have to show up for the game.

That's an average of 3 million per player to go around. Rask, is taking up the salary of just over two people and 10% of the payroll. Is he worth it?

Rask is number 26 overall (including some with a lesser number of games) for GAA:
http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?sort...20152ALLGAGALL

Svedberg, much-maligned as he is, has a GAA of 2.33 compared to Rask's 2.30. Svedberg was ran out of town and has been declared not a good backup goaltender, but his performance is nearly identical to Rask's (including save percentage), who some are declaring as elite.

Facts are facts. [MOD] The goal is to win championships and build a championship team. Given the facts in this post, salary and performance, comparison to his backup, his resume, is he elite? The answer is no. And so, if he goes to an expansion team, so be it.
Goaltending has always been about winning games... being able to handle big moments... bouncing back from adversity.... installing confidence in your team.

There is a reason backups are backups. Go back to the glory years of montreal with bunny laraque backing ken dryden as an example what i learnt when i was a kid. Year after year bunnys numbers were outstanding but when montreal wanted to win cups they went with the MAN.

History is full of backups that had ok numbers because they played protected mins and were sat during struggles.

Goalie is a position where often guys arent rounding into form before they near 30. Dominek hasek and tim thomas are recent examples of this. Regie lemelen was another ex bruin. Dwayne rolonson...

Im not necessarly going to say rask is headed to hof, but his raw tools are elite. Scouts drooled over this guy. He has won a vezina. He has gone to a cup final. Hes still young.

Your arguments are really surprising

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07-26-2015, 08:13 PM
  #122
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I actually watch the games. You can search my posts. How many softies do you think he gave up? In the game day threads this year, go ahead and do a search. Search for softies.

I think Holtby is better and is a better competitor, and at a better price. $7 million for repeated softies and subpar play, it's a joke. Rask is the third highest paid goaltender in the NHL and is not even a Vezina finalist. Nine goaltenders were picked above him as nominees. Elite, right?
Some arguments are incredibly stupid to try to defend. When you get caught on the wrong side of one you should drop it and hope no one remembers you ever bringing it up

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07-26-2015, 08:20 PM
  #123
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I thought this thread was particularly about expansion and protecting players. Our goaltending depth is quite high, and it was even higher with Martin Jones who I believe it was a mistake to trade. I'm not talking about saving $2 million. I'm talking about saving between $4 and $5 million.
Those goalies won't be good enough and when they are you need to re-sign them= goodbye then?, that's just constantly changing goalies.
None of our goalies are ready and won't be elite for years and probably none of them will reach elite status and if they will they'd be too expensive for you.


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Why, because of the quantity of players? Surely we are going to strike gold with one of them? Well, they should hire me, because it's not about quantity. It's about quality, and the ability to analyze good players in relation to their value. It's easy to say that you want a bunch of Patrick Kane on your team, but you need to make value choices. That's where we disagree. I did not say Rask sucks. I said he wasn't elite. I gave statistics and a direct comparison to our backup goaltender from last year.
You say you know hockey but then you would know that Svedbergs games where mainly against Buffalo and New Jersey, against teams that can't score to safe their lifes and anyone can look good/okay for 10 games, look what happened to 2nd half hot goalies, Ottawa lost and Dubnyk lost it completely against the Hawks and they have elite D group.

Our prospect pool is deep and strong, we have strong players that have the potential to be top6/top4 guys for us and ton of strong bottom6 role players/ 3rd line players, prospects that can improve your team and not play vets past their prime who just hurt you.

I'm saying I'm keeping Rask and you'd need to bring in someone who gets paid 10M to replace Rask's value to us, you don't win without elite players and we aren't going to get more of them without killing our team.


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I believe Bergeron is an elite player that is maybe one step below the $9 and $10 million folks. I don't know why you are talking about him. That's not what we are discussing. I would surely protect him during an expansion process.
The best defensive forward in the league would get a 9M+ contract easily.
I'm talking about it because you are saying Rask isn't worth his contract when he easily is when you compare him to other elite players that you would have to get to actually make our team better if we trade Rask and replace him with average goalie, you need to replace him with a better player and Rask is elite so it will get expensive.

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He was marginally better than our backup goaltender on paper.
This is just hilarious, I'm sure this is why he signed in KHL, can you tell me with this theory of yours that if he is almost as good as Rask then why isn't he playing in the NHL and starting as #1?
Do you think Sved is almost as good as Bishop, Quick, King?, he almost had same stats or had better than these.
The guy played 18 games and was sheltered as something


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Well, for starters, you don't trade them to begin with. Tyler. Elite player. Gone.
This is my point and has been, haven't we lost enough elite talent and you are ready to give up Rask for free? This is the whole damm point, you don't trade elite players in their early prime.

Every GM, every expert, pretty much every fan yes even Habs fans, every game announcer, every poll will tell you that Rask is elite, elite, elite, elite.

By the way have you watched how well Minnesota and their top/elite players did when their goalie killed completely their confidence?


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07-26-2015, 09:16 PM
  #124
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Those goalies won't be good enough and when they are you need to re-sign them= goodbye then?, that's just constantly changing goalies.
None of our goalies are ready and won't be elite for years and probably none of them will reach elite status and if they will they'd be too expensive for you.
Interesting. You don't believe in the goalies that are in our system. Well, I almost agree with you. Martin Jones was our best hope.


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You say you know hockey but then you would know that Svedbergs games where mainly against Buffalo and New Jersey, against teams that can't score to safe their lifes and anyone can look good/okay for 10 games
So he didn't beat the New York Rangers, Minnesota, or Detroit? And I just looked it up, but three of those losses he had sub 2 GAA. The Tampa Bay loss, I hope that was charged to Rask (Mr. "Elite" got pulled that night).

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Originally Posted by BB88 View Post
Our prospect pool is deep and strong, we have strong players that have the potential to be top6/top4 guys for us and ton of strong bottom6 role players/ 3rd line players, prospects that can improve your team and not play vets past their prime who just hurt you.
I'm not against veteran players if they can pull their weight. For example, Iginla did a good job.



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Originally Posted by BB88 View Post
This is just hilarious, I'm sure this is why he signed in KHL, can you tell me with this theory of yours that if he is almost as good as Rask then why isn't he playing in the NHL and starting as #1?
I didn't say he was as good as Rask. I said they had a similar performance, and I can't call a guy elite that performs the same way as the guy who was ran out of town. Especially when we don't make the playoffs.


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This is my point and has been, haven't we lost enough elite talent and you are ready to give up Rask for free? This is the whole damm point, you don't trade elite players in their early prime.
I'm not saying give him away for free. There are a lot of people who think he's worth having around. I'm saying that too many people around here have their superfan glasses on instead of the critical eye of a GM. I'm happy to bring this to your attention, because I do have those skills.

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07-26-2015, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by What The Puck View Post
Interesting. You don't believe in the goalies that are in our system. Well, I almost agree with you. Martin Jones was our best hope.
Yes, I don't know if the prospects can become elite top10 goalies in the league, in Rask I believe.

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Originally Posted by What The Puck View Post
So he didn't beat the New York Rangers, Minnesota, or Detroit? And I just looked it up, but three of those losses he had sub 2 GAA. The Tampa Bay loss, I hope that was charged to Rask (Mr. "Elite" got pulled that night).
I guess elite goalies never get pulled right?
Minnesota is a low scoring team for example and he played .....ng 18 games, 18 games and you call yourself one of the smartest posters and compare goalie with 18 games to 70 games and as you are one of the smartest posters you should probably know and know that when backups play the players take less risks, play more carefull hockey, that's what they too say when they get asked, behind top goalies like Rask they can take much more risks and know they have a guy who they can trust.


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Originally Posted by What The Puck View Post
I'm not against veteran players if they can pull their weight. For example, Iginla did a good job.
"Vets past their prime"



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Originally Posted by What The Puck View Post
I didn't say he was as good as Rask. I said they had a similar performance, and I can't call a guy elite that performs the same way as the guy who was ran out of town. Especially when we don't make the playoffs.
Once again showing the smarts, you don't think that losign JB, Iginla and not replacing them at all, and injuries to Krecji, Lucic, Chara, Seids, Krug, K.Miller, McQuaid, Hamilton had nothing to do with losing playoffs or are those just mjehh players who don't really matter and it's Rasks fault?

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Originally Posted by What The Puck View Post
I'm not saying give him away for free. There are a lot of people who think he's worth having around. I'm saying that too many people around here have their superfan glasses on instead of the critical eye of a GM. I'm happy to bring this to your attention, because I do have those skills.
You said he doesn't need to be protected, do you know that basic "top" players get 7M contract these days, and Rask the highest % of all time is not worth that money, he got the top D players past their prime and rookie Hamilton's+ Krugs and still is the number 1.

.931, .918, .929, .929, .930, .922. There's some Rasks Boston regular season numbers for you, good luck with finding a goalie who can match those.

1.88 .940%, 1.99 .928% playoff stats as number1, but njähh he is average right?
Or was the D great, was it all because of the D, is Rask the only goalie with other players on ice at the same time?

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