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Laviolette is killing Cam Ward's confidence...

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11-23-2005, 01:14 PM
  #1
FlamesFan80
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Laviolette is killing Cam Ward's confidence...

Now normally I support Peter L as a coach - I think he's a perfect fit In Carolina offset what he is doing with the goaltending situation.

He needs to look at what Tom Renney is doing over in New York to see how you should be juggling two stellar goalies. I'm sorry but Cam Ward was looking so good when he had the confidence of his coach and team - Gerber being out with injury. Now that Gerber came back, Laviolette is playing Ward like once every week if that... and for a rookie this is terrible. He needs to rotate these two game in and game out until he can come up with splits that properly identify each goalie's strengths.

Right now Cam Ward looks awful... and now that Gerber gets roughed up, he's just expected to be on. In fact, Ward looks like an entirely different goalie from the start of the season...

Here's hoping again, Peter starts following the Rangers path.

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11-23-2005, 01:41 PM
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What are talking about? Cam had a great start to the season. He played while Gerber was hurt and continued to play even when Gerber was back and they used Cam's hot streak to help them. Then Gerber took over and went on a hot streak himself. Why should they sit Gerber when he on a hot streak? You ride that streak for as long as you can. The Rangers have been rotating goalies b/c Weekes has been good at times, but it too inconsistent. Lavy is doing just fine with the goalies. Cam is the #2 man and he knows it. He won't be number 2 for many more seasons, but for now thats his role.

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11-23-2005, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanesRock
What are talking about? Cam had a great start to the season. He played while Gerber was hurt and continued to play even when Gerber was back and they used Cam's hot streak to help them. Then Gerber took over and went on a hot streak himself. Why should they sit Gerber when he on a hot streak? You ride that streak for as long as you can. The Rangers have been rotating goalies b/c Weekes has been good at times, but it too inconsistent. Lavy is doing just fine with the goalies. Cam is the #2 man and he knows it. He won't be number 2 for many more seasons, but for now thats his role.
And just how well has Cam Ward been since becoming the stagnant #2? Lets take a look shall we:

GP GS MIN W L OTL EGA GA GAA SA SV SV% SO
Last 5 Games 5 4 233 2 1 0 0 21 5.42 122 101 .828 0
Oct 22 (@ WAS) 1 1 4 0 0 0 0 0 0.00 1 1 1.000 0
Oct 28 (PHI) 1 1 60 1 0 0 0 6 6.01 34 28 .824 0
Nov 3 (TOR) 1 1 60 1 0 0 0 3 3.00 25 22 .880 0
Nov 12 (ATL) 1 0 49 0 0 0 0 7 8.60 33 26 .788 0
Nov 20 (TAM) 1 1 60 0 1 0 0 5 5.00 29 24 .828 0

He's averaging almost a week between starts and it's obviously hurting his performance. If you have watched any games you will see how shakey he looks now as opposed to when he was being used regularily.

And in terms of the New York situation, Weekes has not been inconsistent really at all... Renney just knows how to motivate his goalies - something Peter L has no idea what to do. You do what you have to do to spark any goalie you have... especially when they are both considered top tier...

bottom line.

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11-23-2005, 02:25 PM
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I dont know what games you watch, but when has he been shakey?

If the only game you watched was the Atlanta game, when Gerber was pulled and Ward replaced- It doesnt suprise me that he looked "shakey". He barely warmed up during the pre-game skate AND he was using one of Gerber's sticks. Not to mention the whole TEAM looking shakey.

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11-23-2005, 03:15 PM
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guys, he has been shaky imo. i dont think he's being treated right either. ive hesitated to say it, because i generally know how you guys feel about him. i dont think he should be a backup. i think he should either be splitting starts here, or in the minors getting the experience he needs. while he has played admirably, he doesnt look as sharp to me as he did the first couple of games. i know how remarkably poised he is for a 21 year old, but he is still a kid. ive never agreed with idea of him playing for the canes this early, but even i was impressed with how well he did. i just dont think he is ready for all this, his game still needs work.

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11-23-2005, 03:23 PM
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as much as I hate to say it, he might have a point in that Ward could use more starting time down in Lowell rather then playing the backup role here in Carolina. I personally would have no problem offering Archie a one year deal to back up and be able to give us 20 games or so, though I'm not sure how much the team would like that.

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11-24-2005, 08:47 AM
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I personally would have no problem offering Archie a one year deal to back up and be able to give us 20 games or so, though I'm not sure how much the team would like that.
Face it people-- Irbe has long been done with the Hurricanes and now is done with the NHL. Last I heard, he's struggling in Europe. Atlanta even brought up their ECHL goalie rather than sign Irbe... Sentiment and fond memories will not bring back what was.

Let Irbe enjoy his time trying to take on the NHLPA's decision to hire Saskin and get rid of Goodenow. It's one thing to take on the Soviets, but Jim Rutherford, NHL and NHLPA are not evn the same thing and that's how he's approached everything.


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11-24-2005, 11:11 AM
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Finally, now that bleedgreen and DaveG has said it: yes, Cam Ward would probably be suited to be back at Lowell at this point. We should sign a veteran goalie. He's probably not adjusting well to not playing alot, and this could be hurting him.

Then again, he'll probably prove us wrong sooner or later.

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11-24-2005, 03:10 PM
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If you leave out the ATL game where Ward had to suck up seven goals then I don't see your "obvious" hurt in performance.

In his first 5 Games Cam had a 5.42GAA and .828 SV%

After 11 games (incl ATL) Cam has a 3.75GAA and .874 SV%

With no more than 2 days off between games until the Olympic break, and Gerber only having played 2 more games than Cam, I am sure that he will see more ice time in the near future. Telling the kid that he didn't cut it because he single handedly hasn't carried a game behind a washy defense of late, and putting another goalie in his stead and sending him down to Lowell, sure will improve his confidence.

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11-24-2005, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebel
If you leave out the ATL game where Ward had to suck up seven goals then I don't see your "obvious" hurt in performance.

In his first 5 Games Cam had a 5.42GAA and .828 SV%

After 11 games (incl ATL) Cam has a 3.75GAA and .874 SV%

With no more than 2 days off between games until the Olympic break, and Gerber only having played 2 more games than Cam, I am sure that he will see more ice time in the near future. Telling the kid that he didn't cut it because he single handedly hasn't carried a game behind a washy defense of late, and putting another goalie in his stead and sending him down to Lowell, sure will improve his confidence.
dude. those are bad stats. all of them. it isnt telling him he didnt cut it, its telling him to go be a starter and get more experience. it messes with his head more here to stop playing him and letting him stagmate on the bench. he is too young not to be playing 60 games a year. he isnt, nor shouldnt, be doing that here. this isnt new logic now that he has struggled a bit, its what most of us around here were afraid of when rutherford was going to do this to him LAST year. our gm needs to be sent to the minors.

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11-24-2005, 06:08 PM
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But that is the point I am trying to make. Until CanucksFan mentioned it I didn't know that Cam, with a 5-2-1 record, was seen by some of you guys as struggling so bad that it would warrant the grand "opportunity" to get more experience in Lowell. After a season or two, what will your expertise demand when he's back up here and ends up behind a struggling defense again and gives up goals after miserable clearing attempts or stupid turnovers in the slot? He still ain't ready or trade him, he ain't worth it??

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11-25-2005, 01:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebel
... with a 5-2-1 record, was seen by some of you guys as struggling so bad that it would warrant the grand "opportunity" to get more experience in Lowell.
A 21 year old goalie this day and age is a fragile creature. I'm sorry, goalies this day and age are fragile. Their is so much skilled players in the NHL, this is not an era where goalies can step into the NHL and be great....the days of Tom Barrasso's stepping in and dominating are gone. He needs to start somewhere, he can't get confidence by sitting on the bench. Ward has mad skills, but if you haven't noticed he isn't sharp. I noticed this when he first went downhill...in that wild 8 to 6 game weeks ago.

Rebel, he just needs to play everday. Sending him to Lowell isn't punishment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebel
After a season or two, what will your expertise demand when he's back up here and ends up behind a struggling defense again and gives up goals after miserable clearing attempts or stupid turnovers in the slot?
You can tell the future? Pessimist? So, you rather have a Jamie Storr like player rather than a Roberto Luongo type player in such a situation?

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11-25-2005, 02:57 PM
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I am really not sure what is the best thing to do in this situation. However, I will say that I dont know how much good it will do for his development to send him back to Lowell. There was a lot of NHL talent down there last year, and that was great for him. this year the talent is just not that great down there, he will be playing against a lot of guys who arent that good. That would do a lot for his confidence, but playing against people you are way better than, does not make you a better player. I guess, at this point, I am of the opinion that he should be staying here especially with the upcoming schedule like was pointed out above, we dont have more than two days off for quite a while, and the best player available is Cam for this team. thanks all, and see you at the game tonight, I think it is going to be sold out, was just up there picking up a couple extras and they didnt have anything together, usually a good sign. Lets get back on the winning track tonight...GO CANES!!!

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11-25-2005, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Storminator16
A 21 year old goalie this day and age is a fragile creature. I'm sorry, goalies this day and age are fragile. Their is so much skilled players in the NHL, this is not an era where goalies can step into the NHL and be great....the days of Tom Barrasso's stepping in and dominating are gone. He needs to start somewhere, he can't get confidence by sitting on the bench. Ward has mad skills, but if you haven't noticed he isn't sharp. I noticed this when he first went downhill...in that wild 8 to 6 game weeks ago.

Rebel, he just needs to play everday. Sending him to Lowell isn't punishment.

You can tell the future? Pessimist? So, you rather have a Jamie Storr like player rather than a Roberto Luongo type player in such a situation?
I can tell the future as much as you but, that has nothing to do with me not sharing your opinion that Cam has lost it since his 8-6 win against the Flyers or that he needs to gain more confidence or practice in the minors. I also see a difference between the original post which suggests that Lavi should pay closer attention to goalie rotations, and some replies that would rather have Cam in the minors and a new and more experienced, sharper and more confident goalie playing second fiddle to Gerber. Just how would that change the sharpness of the new goalie if he too is only played once a week if that?

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11-25-2005, 08:56 PM
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cam didnt lose it. he never had it. he's too young for the job. i dont care that he played well because i feel they are rushing him. rebel, name me all of the nhl goalies in the last 20 years who had long successful careers starting at 21. name me 5. broduer. roy. you could say potvin, but he's out already. unless you think ward is a hall of famer, i dont understand what YOURE expecting from him, because only the best of the best of all time are ready at 21 to begin long term nhl careers at 21 or younger. almost every other goalie was run out of the league within a few years. show me a bunch of successful goalies who had long careers that began at 21, then tell where cam fits in there. stop taking offense, were all on the same side. ive had the same opinion for well over a year now, when jr said before the lockout that cam was to be backup - its the wrong way to go.

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11-25-2005, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamesFan80
Here's hoping again, Peter starts following the Rangers path.
Btw, that situation is crab shacks. Lundqvist is the pretty boy everyone seems to fawn over and it seems like everyone in NY is trying to make Weekes a scapegoat. The minute he has a bad period alot of Rangers fans are down his throat. I have no idea why he thought the Rangers was a good situation for him. Actually, I remember, the Rangers was the only team willing to throw that much dollars his way.

Mark my words, Lundqvist will fall apart soon.

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11-26-2005, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by bleedgreen
cam didnt lose it. he never had it. he's too young for the job. i dont care that he played well because i feel they are rushing him. rebel, name me all of the nhl goalies in the last 20 years who had long successful careers starting at 21. name me 5. broduer. roy. you could say potvin, but he's out already. unless you think ward is a hall of famer, i dont understand what YOURE expecting from him, because only the best of the best of all time are ready at 21 to begin long term nhl careers at 21 or younger. almost every other goalie was run out of the league within a few years. show me a bunch of successful goalies who had long careers that began at 21, then tell where cam fits in there. stop taking offense, were all on the same side. ive had the same opinion for well over a year now, when jr said before the lockout that cam was to be backup - its the wrong way to go.
Bleedgreen, we can discuss or argue goalie management and development all day long and “show me this” or “show me that” is not going to change the fact that Cam is Cam. He is neither a Roy, Brodeur, Barasso or Potvan in style or character, nor like any other hockey great or washout.

So, pardon me if I don’t agree with all the “he’s just awful…struggling…shaky…needs more experience…not adjusting well...too young…lost it…never had it – talk”.
Given his rookie experience and circumstances I think he has done just fine as his 5-2-1 record shows. Unlike others though, I will expect him to still make mistakes because we are not going to see constant flawless games from him, not with 10 YEARS AHL experience, not as a 1st year pro, nor as a 20 year vet and future Hall of Famer. Sure, age can be a touchy subject with goalies but isn't that relative? Afterall, it’s not like they are throwing him to the wolfs night in and night out and burning him out physically and mentally because he can’t learn and adjust fast enough. And, the more you would play him at the NHL at this stage, which you are calling for, the more you would promote that.

And on another note, no matter which way you turn the coin he is still a backup goalie. I'd say that some people in the organization with a lot more insight knowledge and expertise than any of us, and who are dealing with Cam on a daily basis, must have felt that that was the level he was ready for. To me he was simply given the opportunity to fill in for however long should Gerbs get hurt and otherwise to get some experience and fine tune his skills when Gerbs needs a break. Afterall he is still a rookie trying to get used to a new and a hell of a lot more intense level of the game. Now, you seem to disagree but I think that he can't attain that down in the AHL. Not against 5th thru 9th string opponents anyways, most of whom will probably never wear a NHL jersey, and no matter how many years he plays down there. I just think he needs to hone his skills on the next higher level. Besides, he has been there already - has has done that - and has proved himself a standout. It's time to move on not back. I guess I just don't see the logic behind risking him stagnating on a lower level merely because he is "only" 21, or on the other extreme playing the heck out of him because he needs it (?), over him getting eased into the game. I am sure that his time will come eventually and when it does I'd rather have him step out onto the ice than scrambl;ing to pack his backs and heading for the airport.

But, that's just my opinion, your mileage may vary.


Last edited by Rebel: 11-26-2005 at 08:44 PM.
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11-26-2005, 11:45 PM
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Let me put it this way, this is a psychological challenge on Ward. Something he doesn't have to go through. He won't beat out Gerber, and a veteran backup like Fred Braithwaite can probably pick up wins that Ward will pick up.

I just don't see the need to possibly to break this kid so early. Tanabe, anyone?

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11-27-2005, 12:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebel

So, pardon me if I don’t agree with all the “he’s just awful…struggling…shaky…needs more experience…not adjusting well...too young…lost it…never had it – talk”.
never said he was awful. i think he's been excellent overall - but i do think that maybe the adrenaline that got him through at first has settled down a bit. i think the team was on a tremendous run and he was part of it, and as such his shine was brighter than maybe it shouldve been. much like cullen or tverdovsky, the streak made them appear to be walking on water - theyre good players....but not as good as the strak may have represented.

i dont and will never agree that 20 nhl starts is better than 60 ahl starts for a young goalie. thats just my take, and i believe regardless of the fact that he is his own man that history has never been on the side of goalies given starter responsibility at such an age. at this age both luongo and dipietro were often shuttled back and forth (as well as fluery), and despite the fact that they had "been there, done that" they all showed the benefit of the experience. i dont agree with any assessment that they wouldve improved just as well sitting on the bench for over 55 games in a season.

i would perfectly happy if they just sent him down between games to grab an occasional start in lowell, calling him back to backup and start from time to time. at least he would be getting the work he needs. ive never seen a young hockey player improve from riding the bench, and im just not seeing any arguement that suggests he will be better for it. i see an arguement from someone who is defending ward from people he thinks are jumping off the bandwagon. i dont think many around here were ever on it. we know he is the ****, we just dont want what has been consistently mediocre management to mess him up. i dont need him to lead us to glory this year, i want him to be a legit no 1 goalie for a long time - i think that goal is better reached through occassional starts at the nhl level, mixed with a ton of pro level shots in the A. he will ready when he is ready, i dont think he is there yet. just my .02cents.

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12-02-2005, 02:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Storminator16
Mark my words, Lundqvist will fall apart soon.
I'd have to disagree there.....Lundqvist was dominant in Sweden, and was dominant during the playoffs last season in Sweden....with many NHL players over there. He might be 23 but he has a lot more expierence than most NHL rookies. He hasn't shown one bit of "falling apart".

I know that was posted a few days ago but I was just reading over the boards and saw that comment and had to make a comment.

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12-06-2005, 10:46 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Storminator16
Btw, that situation is crab shacks. Lundqvist is the pretty boy everyone seems to fawn over and it seems like everyone in NY is trying to make Weekes a scapegoat. The minute he has a bad period alot of Rangers fans are down his throat. I have no idea why he thought the Rangers was a good situation for him. Actually, I remember, the Rangers was the only team willing to throw that much dollars his way.

Mark my words, Lundqvist will fall apart soon.
You obviously know nothing about Lundqvist then...

He will not falter... the guy is touted the best goalie to come out of Sweden and it shows. That is, if you've watched any of his games. He's the real deal and I'll be sure to check back into this thread at the end of the season to rub it in your face.

Where are all the Cam Ward naysayers now? Send the guy down already, he's getting slaughtered in net. Not that Gerber isn't, but Ward is especially getting obliterated.

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12-06-2005, 10:46 AM
  #22
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Originally Posted by 2Leetch_94
I'd have to disagree there.....Lundqvist was dominant in Sweden, and was dominant during the playoffs last season in Sweden....with many NHL players over there. He might be 23 but he has a lot more expierence than most NHL rookies. He hasn't shown one bit of "falling apart".

I know that was posted a few days ago but I was just reading over the boards and saw that comment and had to make a comment.
He posted better numbers than Turco and Theodore over there last year too... take that for what it's worth.

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12-06-2005, 11:36 AM
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Man, you guys are late.

Let the Lundqvist love fest continue. I'll continue to exercise caution.

Three points I want to make.

NHL > SEL
Turco > Lundqvist
Theordore > Lundqvist

Your mileage may vary.

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12-06-2005, 12:50 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Storminator16
Man, you guys are late.

Let the Lundqvist love fest continue. I'll continue to exercise caution.

Three points I want to make.

NHL > SEL
Turco > Lundqvist
Theordore > Lundqvist

Your mileage may vary.
You're like Dick Pound with this nonsense - was the evidence to back it up this year? This is Lundqvist's first year to play in the NHL and he's kicking major ***, well ahead of Turco and Theodore.

How do you foresee that stopping? What is the excuse that this will stop? Where is the evidence that Lundqvist will falter?

Storminator16 = Dick Pound

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12-06-2005, 01:04 PM
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I think it is a little early to project what a first year NHLer is going to do. Yes, he has been playing great, but please keep the "he is better than Turco and Theodore and Hasek and Roy and Sawchuk to yourself until he wins at least one Vezina trophy.

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